ErikB, I understand that you are, passionate to say the least, about painting the empire in a bad light, but could you please leave the real world politics out of it? I'm on this forum to partly escape from the realities of life, as are we all.

I feel it is inappropriate and a VERY thinly veiled excuse to post your own political viewpoints as Star Wars content.

I feel strongly about free speech, but there are better places to voice opinions.

I got my politics from Star Wars.

Star Wars isn't an apolitical romp. It is a romp about why our way of doing things is better than the doings of people like Mr. Kim there.

How is this helping the beta.

How is this helping the beta.

Helps explain why it doesn't have an option for playing the space nazis. And how to represent the Empire properly. And why the Alliance are presented in a good light. And why you want to play the Rebels.

By and large, if your players have sympathy for the Empire, it means you haven't properly explained or demonstrated precisely what it is that the Empire represents.

Just report it as the inappropriate content it is people. The more you post, the more important Erik feels, and the more acceptable his behaviour appears to be.

Just report it as the inappropriate content it is people. The more you post, the more important Erik feels, and the more acceptable his behaviour appears to be.

Already have. Guy needs to stop beating that drum of his.

If you want to know more about the Galactic Empire and don't have earlier game resources.

"According to George Lucas, the empire from Star Wars was largely based on the Galactic Empire in Isaac Asimov 's Foundation series , although Asimov's empire was depicted as a benign government. Also, Coruscant was based on the planet Trantor , the capital of Asimov's empire. The Galactic Empire has been also influenced by Adolf Hitler 's Nazi Germany ^[54] ; for example, the Imperial stormtroopers resemble the German stormtroopers , and red, black and white, the most recognized colors of the Empire, are also the colors of the Nazi Blutfahne . Palpatine's promise of an Empire that would last for ten thousand years, and the Empire falling far short of that goal, also echoes Adolf Hitler's promise of a "Thousand Year Reich". The Galactic Republic's transformation into the Empire is perhaps modeled after the transformation of the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire ; the Roman Republic was transformed because of war, infighting, and two of its leaders, Julius and Augustus Caesar . Other reasons for the transition were based on the transformation of the First French Republic into the French Empire by Napoleon (after a coup), and the Weimar Republic into the Third Reich. Portions of the Empires' philosophy, such as the anti-Jedism policies/anti-Force belief policies, among other things, were also similar to the Soviet Union. Similar to the Soviet Union under Stalin (specifically the aftermath of Stalin's death), as soon as Palpatine met his first demise on the Battle of Endor, various insurgencies throughout the Empire were attempted before being put down by the Imperials. One insurgency in particular, the Coruscant Uprising , had notable similarities to the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 that commenced shortly after Stalin's death. On a related note, series creator George Lucas cited that Emperor Palpatine's arrival on the Death Star in Return of the Jedi was based on the military parades in "May Day" in what was at the time Soviet Russia. ^[55] George Lucas had also implied in Empire of Dreams and in an interview with the Associated Press that the Galactic Empire was also based in part on the American forces during the Vietnam War, when citing that the Ewoks were based on the Viet Cong and also claiming he based the Empire's ruler, Palpatine, on then-president Richard Nixon."

Too look at the Galactic Empire as "space nazis" is too simplified. You're basically reducing them to one factor when there is so much more influence to its creation. Unless you are willing to discuss the Empire without bias, there is little to discuss. Every government on earth has done atrocious things at one point or another. Nazis did not corner the market, they are only the most recognizable.

If you want to discuss the Empire in an adult fashion, including all its influences, without trying to browbeat everyone with "EMPIRE BAD!! REBELS AWESOME!!", then maybe there can be a discussion.

Otherwise, just remove the thread.

without trying to browbeat everyone with "EMPIRE BAD!! REBELS AWESOME!!"

Thats the Star Wars line though. The Empire are not another wargaming faction to cheer on. They are pure breed despicable villains.

They are the bad parts of the Nazis, the bad parts of the Soviet Union, the bad parts of the US in Vietnam and the bad parts of the British Empire rolled in to one loathsome package.

And really, that is a lot of bad bits to choose from.

What the heck do people think they could have done to emphasise more that the Empire are the bad guys!

Now, certainly one could rewrite the setting to make the Empire more sympathetic, but I don't think Disney are going to have any interest in doing that. Less even that George Lucas did. They have a multi billion dollar kid friendly franchise to shepherd, and the last thing they are going to want is controversy.

So to an extent you can keep wondering why the Empire are always painted in such a bad light, or you can get with the **** program, find something about the Rebellion to love and the Empire to Hate (and if you can't find something to hate in the Nazis, the Soviet Union, the British Empire, that 'How do you shoot women and children?' guy from Full Metal Jacket, the guys with the guillotines from the French Revolution, Mr. Kim above or Mr. Assad and his sarin you really are not trying) and we can all get back to giving space Hitler a sock on the nose!

By and large, if your players have sympathy for the Empire, it means you haven't properly explained or demonstrated precisely what it is that the Empire represents.

Unless of course they refuse to support a terrorist organization that was bent upon the removal of the lawfully elected head of state and the destruction of the rightful government as a whole and believe that the Jedi was nothing more than a dysfunctional order of baby snatching monks engaged in a several millenium long ideological war that threatened to tear the galaxy apart.

Unless of course they refuse to support a terrorist organization that was bent upon the removal of the lawfully elected head of state and the destruction of the rightful government as a whole and believe that the Jedi was nothing more than a dysfunctional order of baby snatching monks engaged in a several millenium long ideological war that threatened to tear the galaxy apart.

Thats a subversion of the setting, a reading you almost certainly didn't get from an official source (except maybe the Clone woman) and almost definitely not a reading you are likely to see out of Disney.

Its like the contractors on the Death Star or the Ewok holocaust when the Death Star 2 fell in to the atmosphere of the forest moon. Its funny, but it isn't an intended reading of the films, and you shouldn't expect official materials to acknowledge it.

Now, certainly one could rewrite the setting to make the Empire more sympathetic, but I don't think Disney are going to have any interest in doing that. Less even that George Lucas did. They have a multi billion dollar kid friendly franchise to shepherd, and the last thing they are going to want is controversy.

We're not talking about Disney.here. Nobody here, except maybe you, cares what Disney thinks and they do not even enter the equation because they have nothing to do with how people like or want to play their game. And it is not a question of a sympathetic Empire. It is the realization that the Empire can be shown in different lights and with different focus. The Empire can be multifaceted just like anything else.

Its like the contractors on the Death Star or the Ewok holocaust when the Death Star 2 fell in to the atmosphere of the forest moon. Its funny, but it isn't an intended reading of the films, and you shouldn't expect official materials to acknowledge it.

Of course not. Because to consider it, much like you are asking us to consider real world politics where there are many sides, would cast the Rebels in a not so shiny light. So we should follow the propaganda and not consider those things, right?

The Empire can be multifaceted just like anything else.

They are not gonna be though, while Disney own the setting.

So, assuming we want the RPG to reflect the setting as portrayed by official materials (which is soon going to include Star Wars Rebels and a new set of movies) (and maybe we don't, but Disney gets the say here), it behoves us to find ways to enjoy that rather than complain that FFG doesn't do something they can't any more than they can do PDFs.

It is just... assuming for a moment that FFG have to makes games where you play as Rebels trying to bring down the Empire, do you think people would prefer to play Rebels who are cool and justified fighting an enemy who are pure evil, or a bunch of terrorists trying to oppose a largely benevolent legitimate government who have more guns and more training than they do?

ErikB: Empire of One. Determined to impose his single-minded thought on everyone else without regard to context or simple decency. He has become the very thing he despises.

Thats a subversion of the setting, a reading you almost certainly didn't get from an official source (except maybe the Clone woman) and almost definitely not a reading you are likely to see out of Disney.

Um, no it's not. It's a perfectly reasonable reading of the universe from the common man's prospective. Clerks aside, there were a lot of people on the death star - was every single one of them evil to the core and ate babies for breakfast? Nope.

TIE Fighter presents the Empire as the stabilizing force of order in the galaxy and the Rebels portrayed as terrorists. In fact, most of the early missions consist of legitimate work like scanning freighters for contraband and defending military installations from attack.

And the Jedi order was indeed broken - from their handling of Skywalker all the way down to their clueless handling of every day matters in the galaxy. And yes, the Jedi and the Sith have been locked in a jehad since the founding of the Republic. They are giants fighting in the playground - the Average Man in the Street is not going to be able to tell the difference between the two.

So yeah, it's not that big of a stretch to have characters that support the Empire, think it's a force for good - and can actually serve the Empire without being baby eaters.

Um, no it's not. It's a perfectly reasonable reading of the universe from the common man's prospective.

Do you think it is actually what you were supposed to think when watching the movies?

Sure, but it is going to turn out that they are wrong, the Empire is not a force for good, and when the extent of its evil is revealed to them they will defect and join the Rebellion.

Do you think it is actually what you were supposed to think when watching the movies?

What I thought when watching the movies was that I was watching a Flash Gordon episode with mustache twirling villains that tied women to train tracks. What I want in my game is slightly more complexity than White Hats versus Black Hats.

Sure, but it is going to turn out that they are wrong, the Empire is not a force for good, and when the extent of its evil is revealed to them they will defect and join the Rebellion.

Or realize that "The Empire may not be perfect - and yes, that Vader fellow is very scary - but it's better than the corrupt and broken system of government that we had before" and try and change things from inside. Or simply keep their heads down and stay out of the fight.

Just because you want a simplistic view in YOUR game doesn't mean that everyone has to adhere to that vision. I like the idea of my core world raised Princess being a staunch Imperial supporter that wont raise a hand against the legitimate government. Kind of refreshing, actually/

What I thought when watching the movies was that I was watching a Flash Gordon episode with moustache twirling villains that tied women to train tracks. What I want in my game is slightly more complexity than White Hats versus Black Hats.

And that is fine and all, I guess, but I don't think you can really expect Disney or FFG to support you in doing it. If you want to subvert the setting you do it on your own time.

They need to focus on making the coolest good Rebels vs evil Empire game they can. That means making people want to play the Rebels and bring down the Empire.

And that is fine and all, I guess, but I don't think you can really expect Disney or FFG to support you in doing it.

Why not? There's been plenty of ancillary material from the Empire's perspective? Comics, games, books. Why not make the Military Core book generic enough to fit ANY military (rebel, empire or independent) and then deliver enough information and color on the universe to allow the players to go in whatever direction they want?

Because I don't think that is something they are interested in selling.

Introducing moral ambiguity in to the setting is going to make it less fun for people buying what they do want to sell. Unless you think people are actually going to want to spend their time pretending to be terrorists trying to bring down a largely benevolent legitimate government. Or watching TV shows or movies about terrorists trying to bring down a largely benevolent legitimate government. Or buying toys for their kids about terrorists trying to bring down a largely benevolent legitimate government.

You are really misunderstanding. I'm starting to think you do it intentionally.

Its about a certain point of view.

The Rebels have good reason for what they do. But on the other hand, the rank and file troops and support personnel of the Empire are just probably not that evil. Oh, I'm sure some of them are. You'll find that anywhere. And there is probably a disturbing level of ruthlessness by senior command. And the use of the Tarkin Doctrine and High Human Culture alone is certainly malevolent. But even in command positions there are probably some people who are not cartoonishly evil. Even Nazi Germany had Rommel.

But the truth is, a lot of people in the Empire probably don't see the Empire as that evil. Between propaganda and distance from the bad things happening, there probably was a lot of people who never really thought much of it.

They believed what they were told: The Jedi were traitors who tried to take over the Republic, Palpatine was scarred in an assassination attempt. He had taken swift action to secure the Republic against the Jedi, and used his wide ranging emergency powers to stabilize the galaxy.

And from a certain point of view, that is easily believable. It doesn't take someone being evil to follow the Empire, all it takes is someone not knowing all the facts. And human beings are very good at insulating themselves from uncomfortable truths.

But the truth is, a lot of people in the Empire probably don't see the Empire as that evil.

Sure. But those people are wrong, and when the true nature of the Empire is revealed to them they will defect to the Rebellion.

Not always. Not all of them will believe it for one. Like I said, human beings are VERY good at hiding and not discovering uncomfortable truths.

And even the ones that believe something bad happened will try to rationalize it away.

So the Empire destroyed a village, surely the reports that it was filled with peaceful protestors was a lie. They fired on us first and we retaliated. It was an act of defense. They chose the target when they fired on us, we just acted swiftly to protect ourselves and the neighboring areas. The number of children and elderly that rebel spy we captured said were there is just a trick. An exaggeration to destroy our morale.

Its a tragedy that anyone died, but it isn't OUR fault.