I have a few questions about combat, whitch I haven´t tested yet (just alone, not with friends) so they may sound a little bit stupid. If it so, please do excuse me.

If I get it right you can make only one attack action - you roll only once. RoA determines only how many hits you can get, it´s kind of a top limit.
But what really matters is number of success in your roll (for example balistic skill roll.) Even if you have a RoA like 8, you can never have so many hits, unless you score at least 8 success on your dice roll, is this right?

I noticed that all the bonuses for close range, point blank, full out attack are gone. How can a poor Scum with a BS 33 hit anything then? Even if I am standing right next to someone and I shoot him with a full burst I can score max 4 hits, whats the point of spending all your actions on shooting/fighting then.

Is it really so than only master schooter can hit with more bullets than 4 or 5? Even if he is firing from heavy bolter and spended all his actions on it? I don´t understand, it seems to me that combat will be very slow and untactical. All what matters now are numbers.

Also, everyone has suddenly two reactions which can be both spended to dodge? Then it´s nearly impossible for swordfighter to hit something, if he has only one attack and enemy has two dodge.

Surely I get something wrong...

My first thought when I saw rules was that: for every one point in your RoA you roll once, if you score it is hit, if you don´t its not. And that´s it, nothing more. It seems to me better in this way, even thoug you will roll many more times than in 1st edition. (But still, 8 rolls for one turn of 4-turn combat seems better to me than 1 roll for 14-turn combat. It´s not so hard to remember how many hits you got.)

Please, do explain these to me, I will be very gratefull.

(Also I am not sure where to put it, so I made a new topic, sorry about that. I wasn´t able to find any FAQ.)

Also, everyone has suddenly two reactions which can be both spended to dodge? Then it´s nearly impossible for swordfighter to hit something, if he has only one attack and enemy has two dodge.

Not sure where you got this one. Dodges are performed using AP. Essentially, you have to set aside AP at the end of your turn to ensure you have any left over to dodge at all. So you could have two dodges, but that'd mean you only use 2AP in your turn, which can be pretty limiting.

Oh, now I see it. I was confused by suprise rules, there is something about gaining two action point for reaction at the begining of combat and I thought it is on the begining of every turn, my bad.

But I still don´t get the rest of the rules. Really? No bonuses for point blank, short range or using all your actions to attack? I still can´t imagine how can I hit anything. (Or how can mooks with BS 35 hit anything.)

Only way how to hit anything is to aim a lot, basicly every turn. I surely got something wrong...

As far as bonuses go: It appears to be the case that Aim is now the intended way to gain a bonus (as well as associated weapon mods, consider the laser sight, it gives Accurate, which boosts the Aim action). If BS is an issue, just use a few extra APs for aiming. On an RoF >= 1 weapon this means you could theoretically aim twice (I say twice as it should be pretty standard to always camp 1 AP for an evasion check) before making an attack, which is reasonable. Also, you should drop your preconcieved notions from DH1, "50" does not represent an expert level shooter, its closer to 60-70 now.

Its also important to recognize that the order of an attack is:

1. Determine RoA. RoA = AP spent on the attack * RoF. When attacking, RoA must be > 1. RoA does not round up

2. Roll attack, generate DoSs.

3. Target rolls evasion check, if this generates DoSs, subtract these DoSs from the amount of DoSs made with the attack.

4. If the attack still has DoSs, then its current maximum amount of DoSs is the RoA of the attack.

5. The attack generates 1 hit of damage per DoS.

Its important to realize that evasion is effectively now an opposed check for an attack. For example, if I only have RoA 1 and I get 5 DoSs, that makes it very hard to dodge (the target needs to get 5 DoSs on their evasion).

How can I use burst fire now? Is it totaly pointless now to shoot like a crazy from my autogun? Or from heavy bolter? I do have to aim before every attack? I am not really sure if I like this...

Also I miss point blank. I belive that coming to very close range and use full burst from autogun or something simmilar is a fair tactic and it used to be quite effective. But I can´t do it now, I have to aim...

I just want to be able fire shitload of ammo and hit something, expecially if I am close to my target.


then its current maximum amount

sorry, english isn´t my native language, does this means that if I score at least one DoS number of hits will
be same as my RoA or is RoA just maximum of my hits?

It's worth noting that you can easily have a your stats as high as 45 at character generation, and they only go as low as 30, minimum (assuming point buy, otherwise the minimum would be slightly higher). We're out of the realms of pathetically low starting scores that DH1e suffered from.

Yes, but what about mooks? Are they relly so weak now? Lot of mooks have WS or BS around 30.

Just imagine a situation.

I am guarding a corridor with a heavy bolter. (Let´s asume it´s braced.) Corridor is full of enemies and I decide to spend all my 4 actions on shooting.

My RoA is 12, but I have BS only 40. So I have 40% probability that I hit something even though I just covered all the corridor with a motherfucking full burst from heavy bolter. It seems wierd to me...

Its mainly only pointless to dump alot of AP in an already high RoF weapon. If you can't generate the DoSs to make use of RoA 12, there is no reason to go that high. I don't really see any reason to be upset that you're more likely to be doing an RoA 6 attack with 2APs of aiming, besides a thematic one.

As far as range modifiers: I will admit I'm sad to see them go, but I can see how they were viewed as needless complexity (the inconsistencies of the previous books combat modifiers section vs. the armoury chapter comes to mind) . Its worth pointing out that the bulk of your posts are written as questions as to how the system works now, and are not explicitly worded as discussions on the matter.

EDIT: Talking rubbish - ignore.

@Knasserll

You're actually wrong about one aspect there:

A characater can only make one ranged attack action per round (Attack Actions, p.197). Unless they are dual wielding, in which case the second attack is made at a -20 penalty. The second attack must be made by the weapon in the other hand (e.g. I can't carry an inferno pistol and an autopistol, and make 2 inferno pistol attacks because I'm dual wielding).

@Knasserll

You're actually wrong about one aspect there:

A characater can only make one ranged attack action per round (Attack Actions, p.197). Unless they are dual wielding, in which case the second attack is made at a -20 penalty. The second attack must be made by the weapon in the other hand (e.g. I can't carry an inferno pistol and an autopistol, and make 2 inferno pistol attacks because I'm dual wielding).

Blast - you saw it before I could edit out my post. I completed my edit before you replied, but you must have already started! So close to concealing my error, but for a few seconds.

So how, in DH2, does one spray bullets into a crowd of people? There's a Talent fairly far down the tree that lets you transfer excess hits, but that's it. None of the automatic weapons have the Spray quality (that's for flamers et al.), so how does one do this? The Choose Targets section actually refers to targets in the plural consistently, but there's nothing in the Make Attack Test section that suggests dividing up hits and there are no penalties for multiple targets which I'd expect... So is this handled?

So how, in DH2, does one spray bullets into a crowd of people?

Good question. I won't pretend this is a definitive answer, but maybe Overwatch? Your "corridor guard," above, activates Overwatch with 1 AP and the condition "enemy comes within 50 feet." Then every time an opponent comes within 50 feet, he/she gets a 1 AP attack on them (until something ends Overwatch).

Speaking of Overwatch, here's an interesting thought - can psykers use it? How about Adeptus Mechanicus with luminem arc? There is nothing particularly gun-necessary about the concept of overwatching (and, to be honest, the weapons available to both psykers and mechanicus aren't as deadly as many of the guns)

Just imagine a situation.

I am guarding a corridor with a heavy bolter. (Let´s asume it´s braced.) Corridor is full of enemies and I decide to spend all my 4 actions on shooting.

My RoA is 12, but I have BS only 40. So I have 40% probability that I hit something even though I just covered all the corridor with a motherfucking full burst from heavy bolter. It seems wierd to me...

As I understand it, going full auto on an assault rifle in reality is likely going to make you miss entirely due to recoil. So it's not entirely far-fetched...

But that's not like it works in most of fiction though...

Alex

So how, in DH2, does one spray bullets into a crowd of people?

Good question. I won't pretend this is a definitive answer, but maybe Overwatch? Your "corridor guard," above, activates Overwatch with 1 AP and the condition "enemy comes within 50 feet." Then every time an opponent comes within 50 feet, he/she gets a 1 AP attack on them (until something ends Overwatch).

There was a bit of debate about Overwatch and how it could allow people infinite shots (due to triggering every time an enemy appeared and not actually using up AP). KommisarK figured it out though - the last line of the Overwatch action description states that any action or reaction other than a free action, ends the overwatch. That actually includes the Ranged Attack that is triggered (which is still an action). So you only get to use it once. I've emailed the designers highlighting all the ambiguity, but that's way I believe it is intended to work. Otherwise you can get someone firing off fifteen shots with a shotgun in a single combat turn, for example.

Speaking of Overwatch, here's an interesting thought - can psykers use it? How about Adeptus Mechanicus with luminem arc? There is nothing particularly gun-necessary about the concept of overwatching (and, to be honest, the weapons available to both psykers and mechanicus aren't as deadly as many of the guns)

There's nothing Gun necessary about Overwatch, but it does only allow a Ranged Attack action. Psyker powers can be of Attack type, but that doesn't make them a Ranged Attack action which specifies using a weapon and making a BS attack test. A luminen arc does use a BS test and does appear to be a ranged attack (it's not given a type), but it's a little ambiguous. Luminem Blast however, does specify that you can use it as a ranged weapon in combat so I would say by the book, that counts.

Its mainly only pointless to dump alot of AP in an already high RoF weapon. If you can't generate the DoSs to make use of RoA 12, there is no reason to go that high. I don't really see any reason to be upset that you're more likely to be doing an RoA 6 attack with 2APs of aiming, besides a thematic one.

As far as range modifiers: I will admit I'm sad to see them go, but I can see how they were viewed as needless complexity (the inconsistencies of the previous books combat modifiers section vs. the armoury chapter comes to mind) . Its worth pointing out that the bulk of your posts are written as questions as to how the system works now, and are not explicitly worded as discussions on the matter.

Yes, taking two actions for aming and than fire is mechanicly same as firing full burst and get +20 bonus and you probably hit the same ammout of bullets. But I like to have more possibilites how to fight. I am afraid that every combat will look totaly same now, everyone take aim, use one or two AP to attack and keep one AP for dodge.

Except cover there are no tactical possibilites. (Maybe its all about weapons now? I don´t know...)

As I said, I haven´t tested new combat yet. (Well I did but just alone and very quickly.) So probably my main question would be - Does it work? Is it fun to play? Isn´t new combat system too slow?

(I am gonna test it as soon as I can, but I am just curious now.)

1. There is a metagame with damage. If you can identify a target's weakest stat, you can used Called Shot to your advantage. Each damage type + location combo consistently tests on the same stat (the degree to which does vary, but the stat doesn't change). Each location + damage type also consistently damages/decays the same stat (or stats in a few cases):

Strength -> Impact Damage, Body, damages Toughness OR Rending Damage, Limb, Damages Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill

Toughness -> Impact Damage, Head, damages Intelligence OR Rending Damage, Body, damages Strength

Agility -> Energy Damage, Body, damages Willpower OR Impact Damage, Limb, damages Ballistic Skill OR Rending Damage, Head, damages Perception

Willpower -> Energy Damage, Limb, damages Agility OR Energy Damage, Head, damages Fellowship

Yes, this is quite cheesy, and semi-innapropriate for PCs to metagame out, but using that type of damage against that body location will result in maximal effects on a hit, which could be well worth the lost AP of a Called Shot. It does at least mean that Energy Weapons are good choices against low WP targets and that Rending or Impact Weapons are wise to use against physically weak target.

2. Not to be rude, but if 2AP Aim + 1AP Attack = 1 Full Auto Burst, then how is it that this system is providing "less options." You have more granular use of APs. Not everyone needs to Aim. Its quite meaningful to recognize that this isn't DH1, characters will have higher characteristics here (its the price you pay for having easier access to permanent stat damage, while still trying to enable players to not feel like retiring a PC when they take 1d10 permanent toughness damage). Evasion, while still powerful, isn't a surefire way to dodge anything anymore. Besides, the old style of concentrated fire is still quite effective (they only have so many APs with which to dodge).

3. Options come from actions like Overwatch (or rather, Overwatch + Suppressive Fire), strategic use of conditions (dazed is a wonderful condition), outflanking still has the benefit of denying cover, fatigue/sapping weaponry can affect an enemies action economy. Melee characters could move up, lock key opponents in melee, keep an opponent from bringing heavy weapons to bear. And then on their turn, delay immediately, only to disengage combat when they come off delay (which is right before their allies can shoot). Since delay doesn't require the future APs to be allocated to it, these melee combatants can still use their APs for evasion if need be (and then do a normal attack when they come off delay). Previously it was not possible in DH1 to time a Disengage action in such a way.

Just imagine a situation.

I am guarding a corridor with a heavy bolter. (Let´s asume it´s braced.) Corridor is full of enemies and I decide to spend all my 4 actions on shooting.

My RoA is 12, but I have BS only 40. So I have 40% probability that I hit something even though I just covered all the corridor with a motherfucking full burst from heavy bolter. It seems wierd to me...

As I understand it, going full auto on an assault rifle in reality is likely going to make you miss entirely due to recoil. So it's not entirely far-fetched...

But that's not like it works in most of fiction though...

Alex

The example was for a braced heavy weapon, which is very different to an assault rifle and has much less recoil. It's still going to be hard to aim accurately but not enough that you shouldn't hit something when firing at a group of enemies in a corridor.

There was a bit of debate about Overwatch and how it could allow people infinite shots (due to triggering every time an enemy appeared and not actually using up AP). KommisarK figured it out though - the last line of the Overwatch action description states that any action or reaction other than a free action, ends the overwatch. That actually includes the Ranged Attack that is triggered (which is still an action). So you only get to use it once. I've emailed the designers highlighting all the ambiguity, but that's way I believe it is intended to work. Otherwise you can get someone firing off fifteen shots with a shotgun in a single combat turn, for example.

Well, no, you'd get 6, because that's the size of the clip. You would get 15 shots with an autogun, however, which I agree is unbalanced. OTOH, unloading 30 bullets in 5 seconds should be easy for a 41st millennium automatic slug thrower, since 21st century automatic slug throwers are faster than that. So ideally the rules should let you do it, and give you some sort of bonus for it, but not make it so overwhelming that it's a mechanics-breaker.

The spray effect could IMO represent unloading on full auto. Give the relevant weapons a quality "automatic." This allows the user to perform a special attack action. 4 AP, uses all remaining ammo in clip (but with a minimum amount needed), and allows a single spray attack with some bonus based on the number of bullets used. +1 to skill per 2 bullets might be okay (i.e., +15 to skill if you fully unload).

There was a bit of debate about Overwatch and how it could allow people infinite shots (due to triggering every time an enemy appeared and not actually using up AP). KommisarK figured it out though - the last line of the Overwatch action description states that any action or reaction other than a free action, ends the overwatch. That actually includes the Ranged Attack that is triggered (which is still an action). So you only get to use it once. I've emailed the designers highlighting all the ambiguity, but that's way I believe it is intended to work. Otherwise you can get someone firing off fifteen shots with a shotgun in a single combat turn, for example.

Well, no, you'd get 6, because that's the size of the clip. You would get 15 shots with an autogun, however, which I agree is unbalanced. OTOH, unloading 30 bullets in 5 seconds should be easy for a 41st millennium automatic slug thrower, since 21st century automatic slug throwers are faster than that. So ideally the rules should let you do it, and give you some sort of bonus for it, but not make it so overwhelming that it's a mechanics-breaker.

The issue is more that Overwatch, if read the way you're reading it, provides no theoretical upper limit.

Yes, for the weapons provided in the book, 5 seconds is easily long enough to fire all of its ammunition. But consider some theoretical weapon with infinite ammo (either belt fed to a large enough ammo supply to not matter, or maybe even being reloaded by adjacent allies with delayed actions).

In an infinite ammo scenario, that reading of Overwatch means that its theoretically possible to strike an infinite amount of enemies in that 5 second turn (assuming they keep appearing). That is absurd and inconsistent with the rest of the rules. Can multiple Disrupting Attacks be made per turn? Can multiple Attacks be made per turn? (well, in one specialized situation, yes)

Besides, why again, is the Attack action made by Overwatch not an action that in and of itself cancels the Overwatch? The obvious answer is that it isn't. The explanation for this is that Overwatch as its listed is a bad copy/paste job. There's a reason this is in beta.

The issue is more that Overwatch, if read the way you're reading it, provides no theoretical upper limit.

Yes, for the weapons provided in the book, 5 seconds is easily long enough to fire all of its ammunition. But consider some theoretical weapon with infinite ammo (either belt fed to a large enough ammo supply to not matter, or maybe even being reloaded by adjacent allies with delayed actions).

In an infinite ammo scenario, that reading of Overwatch means that its theoretically possible to strike an infinite amount of enemies in that 5 second turn (assuming they keep appearing). That is absurd and inconsistent with the rest of the rules. Can multiple Disrupting Attacks be made per turn? Can multiple Attacks be made per turn? (well, in one specialized situation, yes)

Besides, why again, is the Attack action made by Overwatch not an action that in and of itself cancels the Overwatch? The obvious answer is that it isn't. The explanation for this is that Overwatch as its listed is a bad copy/paste job. There's a reason this is in beta.

With it ending after the attack, it does seem to be just a variant of a delay.

As a GM, I would not be particularly worried about infinite ammo scenarios ever actually occurring. However, making full auto its own attack action with specific effects seems reasonable to me (and my tentative example of what it would look like is in my last message; add to what I wrote, it should probably get a Fear effect, since both 'pray and spray' and 'cover fire' get one).

Seeing as Delay no longer allows the interrupting of an action, while Overwatch does, even if it is limited it will be different.

The spray effect could IMO represent unloading on full auto. Give the relevant weapons a quality "automatic." This allows the user to perform a special attack action. 4 AP, uses all remaining ammo in clip (but with a minimum amount needed), and allows a single spray attack with some bonus based on the number of bullets used. +1 to skill per 2 bullets might be okay (i.e., +15 to skill if you fully unload).

Yeah, that´s cool solution I like this very much.

But insted of Spray I would use Storm and no bonus gained. I think storm quality represents full burst quite well. (But meaybe its overkill... I will try it.)

And it should be enough to use just a half of all ammo in clip. (But not less.) You should be able to fire burst at least twice, I thnik.

It seems to be a facet of the setting, or at least the FFG version of it, that there really aren't any mini-gun style weapons. There aren't even any real machinegun style weapons. Or am I wrong? I've always considered autoguns to be analoguous to modern-day automatic weapons such as SMGs and automatic rifles, with the Heavy Stubber being analoguous to a modern machine gun. But are they really? Maybe I have been wrong. With 60 bullets in the latter, the ability to fire a maximum of 12 bullets in five seconds (2.4 bullets per second), these are far from our modern day weapons.

WH40K universe seems to be a universe with a heavy stamp of iconic, larger than life weapons. Do we ever actually see a Judge Dredd style barrage of super-fast bullets in 40K (that scene where Mama is having them shoot all across the central gap to the other side)? I more see images of Commisar Yarrick firing off a burst of bullets each one the size of your thumb and each one carefully drawn and discernible.

Just musing.

Assault cannons say hello.