I'm really hoping that lightsaber forms get their own trees like force powers. It would fit perfectly to me.

I'm actually opposed to that idea, but then again I never considered the lightsaber forms concept to be "in the spirit of the original trilogy".

I like the lightsaber forms. I liked the forms in Saga. I don't feel like they're a good fit for the narrative, looser, "less crunchy" system we have here.

If anything, rather than seven individual Force powers (yikes!), I'd rather see a single talent tree ("Lightsaber Technques" or "Advanced Lightsaber Combat" or something) mixing form-specific talents with more generic abilities. Heck, if each form had a basic and an advanced talent, that's 14/20 right there...

More like 15 to 20, don't you think? And your proposal is interesting, not least since the forms' sole incarnation in Saga's CRB was simply the names being used for talents which were supposed to indicate mastery of the forms, whereas you could be a practitioner even without them. In the context of an Edge of the Empire or Age of Rebellion campaign... you have about as much chance of 'actually' learning one of the orthodox forms as you would of learning the Lightsaber skill at all. Moreover, if you think of the forms themselves as "principles", then you've already got some capacity to perform iconic abilities associated with some of them... can you say Force Leap and calling "Ataru", or committing a Force die towards your Brawn and calling "Djem So"? (This is in spite of my own aversion to the lightsaber forms concept to begin with.)

I feel like the lightsaber forms would give two duelists a more interesting thing to do instead have max lightsaber ranks vs. max lightsaber ranks. Just having more to do with anything in a game is better than nothing. But when KOTOR II added the forms, they really changed stuff up, even slightly. Suddenly blocking blasters with your lightsaber became easier, or fighting a group, a single enemy. It would just give more I think.

I don't think each form needs its own tree, but they could have one tree for Lightsaber Talents that could be chained to get a similar effect. Vaapad would be last There are four vertical chains, each could represent a different aspect, e.g.: the left side is more about deflection, the right more about solo combat, the middle more about multiple opponents, etc.

As far as Lightsaber Forms go, DarthGM of the D20 Radio board put together three Lightsaber Form trees, based around Balanced Style (Shii-Cho, Niman, Jar'kai), Strong Style (Djem So, Juyo, & Shien), and Fast Style (Ataru, Makashi, Soresu).

They're pretty decent, and have a few tidbits for non-Force-users who want some emphasis on lightsaber prowess. However, they do make a Force-user/Jedi with a lightsaber a lot more dangerous, particularly if they choose to branch into multiple "forms" covered in each specialization.

While such things would be incredibly rare in the Rebellion Era, I think Phil did a good job capture the basic feel of each respective Form without excessive system bloat.

At which point I'd be left wondering how to stat General Grievous. Truthbetold I'm actually very happy to and honestly would prefer to simply have "the forms" be narrative.

At which point I'd be left wondering how to stat General Grievous. Truthbetold I'm actually very happy to and honestly would prefer to simply have "the forms" be narrative.

Easy, he just has several ranks in the Lightsaber skill and a few melee-based combat talents. Being an NPC, he doesn't have to worry about specializations, and can just cherry-pick the stuff that works for him. Tack on a few ranks of Adversary and you're good to go.

Easy, he just has several ranks in the Lightsaber skill and a few melee-based combat talents.

Which is pretty much as detailed as I believe lightsaber combat should be.

The other option would be in one of the splat books. We already know that there will be uber-talents in the first Explorer one for EotE. perhaps that would be the way it was done. although I gotta say I like the idea of simply using existing stuff to show it from a narrative perspective.

Pretty much exactly what I'm looking for out of lightsaber combat, even in F&D... then again, I'm perfectly happy if the whole Guardian/Consular/Sentinel concepts are just narrative too.

The whole force chapter could use some help.

They forgot to print the section on how sustainable powers work, which means folks who don't have Edge have to guess. This is considering that two of the coolest parts of Enhance require sustaining.

As perviously discussed Force Emergent's talents are sub-par. Invigorate stinks as written. You have to be masochistic or stupid to take it (like buying-lottery-tickets-as-a-retirement-strategy stupid). Sleight of Mind is kinda crappy. It's like Uncanny Senses or Uncanny Reactions. Except that you use Perception and Vigilance all the time, and there's no way to prevent the use of the Uncanny talents. Folks will only take it because it's on the straight line path to Force Rating.

Foresee is a very iconic and fluffy power in the Star Wars cannon. It's highly problematic in any RPG and the designers didn't do their homework here. Basically the problem lies with human nature and GMs. In order for the power to worth points it needs to serve to make the character better or cooler in some manner.

As written you are spending points to be the GM's butt-monkey. The opening of most force powers is pretty unimpressive, and this is clearly intentional. Force Powers are an investment (which makes the idea that you need to unlock them with specializations even less sensical – but whatever). Foresee follows this faithfully. The next level is 15 points, but it gets you a small bonus to initiative checks. You get 1 advantage per light side point. Wait 15 points to break ties? Seriously? I could have a third level in a class skill or a tiny random bonus to break ties. No thanks. How about I just get level 3 Vigilance. More chance of win.

Ah but what about the chance to see the future? You can solve the problem with one force power...

Really? What GM is gonna tell you how to solve the adventure because you got lucky with a force power roll? Not any that I want to play with.

So now we are left with the GM activating the power for you to advance the plot. Think Luke getting visions and dumping Yoda on his ass. How is this worth points to me? I get to be plot monkey and I have to pay for the "privilege." No thanks. How about that just happens cause it's cool and it moves the plot forward. i.e If I can't control it I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Just my two cents.

Regarding Foresee, it's not quite as bad as you make out.

First, the best your character can get is "specific" details about what they've seen. What those details are is up to the GM, and don't have to be all that informative, and as currently written, the power is limited to seeing future events.

Also, keep in mind Yoda's line about "always in motion, the future is," and Palpatine's arrogance about how everything was proceeding as he had foreseen (yet the old man was clearly surprised when Vader informed him that Luke was part of the Rebel assault team that had just passed through). Just because the PC got a glimpse of future events doesn't mean things are going to play out exactly the way they think they will. Unless they manage to roll a crap load of Light Side points on multiple Force Dice, they're probably only going to get one or two specific details... but that doesn't always mean they're going to get the full context. Case in point, Luke's vision of his friends being tortured on Cloud City. He only got two specific details out of that vision... that his friends were being tortured, and that they were on a city in the clouds. Even Yoda, the Jedi Grand Master, couldn't say if Luke's friends were going to die or not. Also, Anakin's dream-predictions of his mother's and Padme's deaths... he certainly wasn't able to suss out any further details about those two incidents, and he certainly would have tried.

Plus, I'd say a bit of GM fiat is needed, so that a player can only use this power to foresee their future only once per day. After all, you didn't see Yoda or Obi-Wan constantly trying to see into the future all the time. The only Force-user we really have any indication of doing that, of constantly gazing into the future and planning according to what they saw was Palpatine, aka the major villain of the story, and even then he got some critical things wrong (namely, dismissing the idea that Luke might convince his father to turn away from the dark side).

Funny thing is that the interpretation of said details is also up to the personality of said would-be "seer"... as an EU lore example, despite the Prophets of the Dark Side being partially tasked with double-checking Palpatine's own visions, when their Supreme Prophet Kadann saw " the end of the Empire, and the death of the Emperor " as " the most likely to occur ", Palpatine... disagreed , to say the least.

Regarding Foresee, it's not quite as bad as you make out.

[...]

I think you're making it sound worse than I am. According to you:

• the specific events (that I had to both spend points on and get a lucky roll for) don't have to be useful. Not really anyway.
• The revelations may be totally worthless because "Always in motion the future is."
• The power should be limited to once a day because otherwise we'll have lame PCs sitting around trying to peer into the future.

So if I'm understanding you correctly the power is almost completely worthless in most games as you've spent a huge amount of points on something that even when it works won't work in your favor because it'll break the game.

I like the idea of the power. I don't like the mechanics of how it's being implemented. I don't see how it's of use to a player only how it serves the GM.

How about a new rule. Characters with a Force Rating of 3 or more are occasionally granted visions of the future by the Force. That would explain how only more powerful Force users have regular visions, but a PC isn't paying a tax to be a plot-monkey.

Because

I like the idea of the power. I don't like the mechanics of how it's being implemented. I don't see how it's of use to a player only how it serves the GM.

Because serving the GM would, in this case, serve the story, albeit in a fashion that makes the player feel as though his character's contributing. It's also a good way of letting a GM help guide players (again, making your character a point of contribution) without actively hand-holding all the time (well... perhaps still hand-holding, but it's more justifiable because the player has spent XP to have earned such insight).

And I also intend on rewarding my player for his investment in the power. For example, I might give the player insight into a sub-plot that will benefit him, but that he'd have had no other means of knowing about without that power.

Mmm...I have to agree that it's too vague as-written. To me it very much reads like you spend XP to be a method for the GM to progress the plot. It requires the GM to care about your investment. Effects are not nearly as detailed as divinatory effects in, say, Dark Heresy or Deathwatch (just as a point of comparison - I don't believe Foresee should be able to provide a super-clean, definite level of detail, just more than what it currently seems to give).

I can agree with the notion of, "why have a player pay XP to be the GM's method of pushing the story?" IMO, any Force-sensitive character should just be eligible for GM-created, plot-advancing "visions" akin to what Luke experienced on Dagobah, even at Force Rating 1. Also, the GM doesn't need a player-purchased power to further progress the story. They have a million other ways of doing that, limited only by their own creativity. This power, as-written, seems to give the GM an easy way out to progress or advance the story, at the cost of a player's limited XP resources. That would be my fear, anyway.

The suggestions in this thread for additional benefits the GM can give to a player with Foresee are great house rules, but I'd want more crunch/specificity in the actual RAW for me to see this as useful. Sense, Influence, Move, and Enhance all put the utility agency on the player. Foresee...just doesn't, and the free initiative bonus just isn't worth the cost. I guess my other issue with it is it's trying to blend very out-of-combat utility (seeing possible events) with in-combat utility, and the blend just is not very good, leaving both utilities lacking thereby. So, in the end, if you invest heavily in out-of-combat utility, you have 3+ hints for 3 days in the future, with the implicit possibility of the GM giving you stuff that is further ahead in the future as a plot point...eh.

If anything I'd like to to look more like D&D Divination spells in terms of power scope and scaling. Start out with the near future and reasonably vague, move towards seeing farther and being less vague and more likely (though not 100% likely). This could be accomplished even without breaking the "always in motion, the future is" 'rule.' Consider that Kadann foresaw the end of the Empire and the method by which it would fall, and Palpatine refused that possibility in his hubris. Sure, things were very likely to proceed a certain way, but there were any number of occasions for the future to change: the droids' escape pod could have been shot and exploded; Luke could have been killed above the Death Star, or on Hoth, etc. What you'd be reading (at higher levels) might be a very likely future but certainly not the definite one, and would provide a player with Foresee with a possible end-result that they could subvert or try to sustain and make come to pass. I understand this could easily skew the strength of the power and would definitely not want it to allow a player to just know exactly how to solve all the issues on a given mission.

BTW, I'm really reluctant to use D&D Divination as the comparison, because I would never want Foresee to give as clear, accessible, definite information as high-level Divination spells can grant. It just seemed like the easiest parallel that most forumites might recognize. If anything, Foresee's practical effects could be like L5R 4th's Commune spells with various elemental spirits: the info you get is heavily colored by their inhuman, elemental nature and therefore isn't very clear, even if it is reasonably accurate for what the little elemental saw or experienced. Translating that to Foresee, you might get brief images, emotional impressions, etc., all of which you would have to puzzle over to get a more clear picture, but you'll never get a completely 100% accurate picture just because changes in the physical universe will change whether the details of the vision can even come to pass.

Just from what I've read from posts on the forum it sounds like they are trying to go for windu's shatterpoint type of forsee based on how he describes it. Mace had a couple day limit I believe though its been a couple years since I read that book. The combat applications were cool but not how they used it in Legacy of the force( shattering beskar' gam).

Am I right?

My local game stores aren't getting the beta so I'm sadly lacking in direct contact with the material to study.

Just from what I've read from posts on the forum it sounds like they are trying to go for windu's shatterpoint type of forsee based on how he describes it. Mace had a couple day limit I believe though its been a couple years since I read that book. The combat applications were cool but not how they used it in Legacy of the force( shattering beskar' gam).

Am I right?

My local game stores aren't getting the beta so I'm sadly lacking in direct contact with the material to study.

It's nothing like Windu's shatterpoint ability.

The bulk of the power tree is Initiative enhancement, providing extra Advantage and/or Successes to you and a couple allies to ensure the PCs react before the NPCs, possibly even getting a free Maneuver in before the action starts.

The part that's problematic for some, such as Aservan, is the "can see into the future." That part of the power has been left fairly vague (deliberately on the part of the design team I would think), and thus is open to "GM interpretation." Which is a phrase that some gamers hate with a passion, as they see it as "GM as free reign to screw me over," and some GMs dislike because to them it means "oh great, now I have to do even more work to adjudicate this power."

Honestly, I've never had a problem with Farseeing effects when it came to looking into the future in any of the Star Wars RPGs that I've run, though I tended not to give my own d20 PCs such abilities, mostly for character-related reasons than ones based on game mechanics.

Thank you Donovan for the clarification!

My questions are:

2) Is the Stealth-related one ranked, or a set number of Boost dice?

AND

1) Those are the only 3 i see (it's called sleight of mind)

2) It's not listed as ranked, however it's in the tree twice (both on the 10pt line) so i think it's supposed to be

T

Edit on the tree it's not listed as ranked, but it is in the talent chapter description.

It does appear that that Sleight of Mind (page #'s: 93, 104, & 193) needs to be fixed in some fashion.

One pages 93 & 104, the Talent is listed as Ranked.

One pages 104 & 193, the description of the Talent is as follows:

(Passive) - The character adds Boost die to all Stealth checks unless the person attempting to detect the character is immune to Force Powers.

One page 193, looking at the actual Talent Tree for Force Sensitive Emergenct:

There are two entries for Sleight of Mind, and as others have noted both at the 10 XP cost. However, one of the two Sleight of Mind entries can only be taken after the character has already spent a minimum of 85 XP purchasing other Talents on the tree, since Indistinguishable (15), Balance (20), Touch of Fate (20) plus any others required to be in position to purchase those three Talents before getting the other Sleight of Mind Talent/rank.

My suggestion would be to make one of the following changes:

(1) Change the 2nd Sleight of Mind Talent Tree entry to an entirely different Talent, and remove the Ranked entry from pages 93 & 104.

OR

(2) Change the Talent description on pages 104 & 193 to read:

The character adds Boost die per rank of Sleight of Mind to all Stealth checks unless the person attempting to detect the character is immune to Force Powers.

As an added recommendation, if the Sleight of Mind Talent is going to be kept as Ranked, it seems like it should have a different XP cost than the first rank, since I don't recall seeing any other ranked talent having both ranks appear on the same level of a Talent tree.

Boost die per rank would make sense; would mirror Uncanny Senses/Uncanny Reactions.

Boost die per rank would make sense; would mirror Uncanny Senses/Uncanny Reactions.

Week 2 Beta Update has made Sleight of Mind provide a boost die per rank as Rehnora suggested.

Boost die per rank would make sense; would mirror Uncanny Senses/Uncanny Reactions.

Week 2 Beta Update has made Sleight of Mind provide a boost die per rank as Rehnora suggested.

A good, solid change.