Love em? Hate em?

I like it, but....

I find that the system is too much. A character gets 10 CP. Heck, a non-sanctioned psyker at character creation.

Rolls 19, +1 for having hit 10= 20. Swollen brute. A horrifying bloated mass of muscle and corpulent flesh. Right there at character creation. Boneblades... Unnatural Vigor in particular DOOMS a character.

The stacking mechanic is great- but there needs to be a line drawn between "Malignancy", "Mutation" and "MAJOR mutation" which the first game did quite well and should be taken back here.

Where are non-warp mutants? They are a standard part of the setting- completely eclipsed in favor of the warp directly meddling into everyone's affairs.

I personally think its too much, and again, if its not broken why fix it?

The system in DH 1.0 is perfectly compatible and even though these options are really cool, they should be incorporated into the system [along with the stacking mechanic and the rolling double].

But a roll of a d100 should still remain, and instead of one HORRIFYING table, the three table disposition was good because you could use it for other things as well. For mutations.

I'm not so sure you can get a Malignancy at chargen ... p 255 says "[e]ach time a character's Corruption increases by 10, that is, whenever his Corruption bonus increases , he suffers a Malignancy" (my emphasis).

Non-warp mutants? You mean like a guy with three eyes or six toes on his left foot?

Actually, as a psyker, you get 10+1d10, so if they roll a 10, then they get at least one.

And if thats actually the case- then being non-sanctioned is actually an advantage. It allows you to escape the first treshold (which is damned low, at 10) scot free without the "Imposed, no-roll to avoid this exists" malignancy that they would otherwise have gotten.

Sorry -- are you talking about chargen? Because in that case you are generating your starting Corruption score. That is different from increasing your Corruption score.

But "Psyker" is an elite advance, which people can take at anytime.

Whats the "Penalty" for starting off as a "Rogue Psyker", if it allows you to safely avoid the first threshold without gaining any corruption for it?

I guess ultimately your character dies 1d10+10 corruption sooner than one who was sanctioned, but that seems relatively weak.

And Yes, by non warp mutant I meant standard "Pollution made me like this" or "I am a mutant because I work in the Emperor's mines all day" mutant, portrayed extensively in Ravenor and Eisenhorn [as being "Sanctioned mutants"]

Sorry -- are you talking about chargen? Because in that case you are generating your starting Corruption score. That is different from increasing your Corruption score.

Sounds like this is something that needs to be clarified in the rulebook, as I don't think there is anything in the rulebook that clearly states either way how to apply this (certainly in dark heresy first ed we always played that it did effect you (otherwise as Saldre said, you'd actually wait to get higher corruption during character gen, which doesn't sound right)).

Not sure what is unclear ... you get a Malignancy when your Corruption bonus increases -- not when you start with a high Corruption bonus.

Yeah, I can see gaining a Malignancy upon taking Psyker as an Elite Advance. That makes fine sense: you were not a psyker and now you suddenly are -- clearly you have been radically changed by the Warp recently.

As far as "standard" mutants go, I think the question is would the mutation necessarily have a mechanical manifestation? Do you need a mechanic explaining your second pinky on your left hand, having an ear that grows out of your forehead, or a vestigial tale? Probably not. If you want such a thing, the GM should let you have one at chargen "for free."

if you want a mutation that has a mechanical manifestation -- night vision, for example -- well, that's needs a cost. Furthermore, I don't think something like Malignancy is the way to handle that. Malignancy is about what happens to you when you mess around with forbidden stuff. "Standard" mutation is about your genetics.

So I guess you'd need a set of "standard" mutations advances you could purchase at chargen. I can imagine why they would leave this out but it could be easily houseruled if you have a player that really wants mutant night vision or somesuch.

Again, I agree that you should gain a malignancy upon taking the elite advance- but, lets take this situation:

Guy A creates character- descents he wants to play a wyrd, or a nascent psyker. He picks guardsman and then buys that elite advance. Spending his remaining 100 exp on something trivial or saving it for something else. He gains 1d10+10 Corruption points, but no further effect.

Guy B creates a character- he's playing a guardsman too, but decides to purchase a few starting talents for a couple of hundred exps. He gains no corruption points.

At the end of the session, both gain 400 exp.

Guy B sees how fun it was playing a Wyrd, and, being a copy-cat, decides he wants to become one too. He buys the elite advance because he developed his psychic powers and gains 1d10 +10 corruption points, gaining a malignancy.

Two characters, which should, by mechanics, look exactly the same, are completely different because one "did it in his background."

As for mutations, I am saying there needs to be a distinct category for mutations and malignancies. Mutations in 40k, pretty much as pointed out in the previous edition, and even in the setting, are not just extra fingers- but usually, like everything else, have something cool and/or horrifying attached to them thats not necessarily seething of warp corruption.

Of course what happens during play matter more and are more dramatic than what happens in chargen.

We know that not every psyker in the Imperium is horribly mutated by the Warp. Psykers are genetic mutants. But if someone were to suddenly all at once tap into latent psychic potential (as in, taking an advance) -- yes, I can see how that would be catastrophic enough to entail a Malignancy ... you know, as opposed to gradually developing psychic potential over the course of one's entire life.

Good point,

So lets talk about the second issue- the fact that the malignancies are horribly destructive, show up wayyy too often for their severity and there's no real way to protect yourself form them.

I'm okay with that because I think a lot of players need very steep costs to take setting elements seriously. Yep, in 40k you're not supposed to muck around with the Warp. But if it gives me a +X bonus to Y then who cares? Dur.

Yes, Malignancy should be feared by every player. (From an in-game perspective, it's worse than death!) That said, not every malignancy is really debilitating so there's some room. You just don't know what you're going to get, which is suitable for a Warp affliction.

I think you're other point about "standard" mutants is more interesting -- but I think it's more of a character creation issue than something will come up during the course of play. Maybe PCs should have the option to buy "natural" mutations at chargen and the come with Corruption?

Have to disagree Manchu, even though it happens at chargen your corruption has increased by 1d10+10 and should give you a malignancy. At least that's how I see it. If I was GM I wouldn't let people get away without a mutation at least, it feels...gamey in a sense to just go psyker from the start if it has an added benefit of avoiding a mutation.

Besides, how would your character not have gotten a mutation during his background history when he gained the corruption as opposed to gaining it during play? Mechanically different but narratively the same thing.

When you generate your characteristics, are they "increasing"? No, they don't exist before they are generated. A value X has not increased; rather, it has simply come into existence. If you take the Psyker Elite Advance at chargen, you are arguably* generating a starting Corruption score, not increasing your starting Corruption of 0 by 1d10+10.

Corruption is described on p 255 as "the taint on a character's soul and body, left by exposure to the stuff of Chaos." In the 40k background, the psyker phenomenon is the result of genetic mutation rather than an encounter with the Warp. This is (one of the reasons) why the Navigator Houses broker arranged marriages, for example. Psykers do not always know what they are, much less having encountered the kind of horrors that generate Corruption in DH2E.

By contrast, triggering latent psychic potential all at once is itself a horror. It would make sense that a character suffering through that experience during gameplay would indeed take enough Corruption to gain a Malignancy. Unlike one who takes Psyker at chargen, the character who takes it during the course of the game has not had a lifetime to gradually deal with what they are.

* I say "arguably" because the beta is unclear. On p 251, we find that "unlike other characteristics, Insanity and Corruption begin at 0 and increase over time as an Acolyte suffers damage to his state of mind (Insanity) and purity of soul (Corruption)." But it's hard to square that description, which stresses going through terrible experiences, with merely being born a psyker.

Manchu, I'm pretty sure you're completely wrong. Corruption starts at zero, when you add CP through being an unsanctioned Psyker or through rolling on Twist of Fate, you're not generating your starting score.

Also, being a psyker is a mutation... that makes you permanently exposed to the Warp energies rolling through your head. The whole point of Sanctioning is keeping that exposure under control.

More on topic, I think automatically suffering a Malignancy every 10 CP is an overkill. Some test to resist is due.

I agree - and I proposed in the Telepathica thread, I recommend that the "Mental Fortitude Talent tree" be amended considerably.

The half of it that consists of "Psyker UpgradeS" should be removed entirely and place into a "Psyker Elite Advance" table- replacing the Untouchable Elite Advance table, which should just be a standard upgrade combining all of those talents into a single effect [and some fellowship loss].

I talk about the Psyker Upgrades and table [along with Sanctioned and "Unbound"] over in the other thread.

For this thread, lets focus on mental Fortitude and Corruption.

With the branch gutted, half of it should focus on Avoiding and resisting insanity, as it is now, and the other half should be focused on resisting and avoiding malignancy. [With talents like "Dark Soul- Bonus to resist the test, Armor of Contempt, -1 corruption, Expurgate [WP to ignore effects of corruption] , and the final talent on that branch could be "Pure faith"- spend a faith point to ignore corruption and insanity gain for a session.]

How does that sound?

I'm thinking, if they're dead set on inflicting so many Malignancies on each and every Acolyte, maybe a successful test could automatically default you to your Signature Malignancy? At least these aren't so overt as to cause the character getting instantly killed as a filthy mutant.

The whole point of Sanctioning is keeping that exposure under control.

Glad you brought this up, I think this is the strongest argument against my point. You get the Sanctioned trait from the AAT background. In terms of the PC's history, however, s/he's already a psyker before being Sanctioned. This leads me to believe that the Elite Advance called Psyker is not really about whether the character is a psyker or not but about when/under what conditions the psychic potential is triggered.

It just strikes me as wonky because the Corruption mechanic is clearly meant to be something that happens in the course of play rather than before play during chargen. (What is this, Traveler?) Then again, there is the Divinations table ... although that can give you a Malignancy without increasing your Corruption so I guess it's not really the Corruption mechanic at work.

I'm actually kinda of a fan of how they've handled Corruption and Malignancy in the Beta, but this is because I think DH needs a serious dose of Cthulhu-esque themes and horrors. In the long-term DH game I'm in, our Psyker earned himself a hefty 34 corruption points by stupidly using a psychic power against a small village of insanely corrupted mutants. He passed his malignancy test but due to the amount of corruption he gained, he earned himself a mutation due to the failed characteristic tests.

Oh look, he rolled for the Tough Hide mutation. Oh look, he gained 30+ corruption without any overt aesthetic changes that would label him mutant. *sigh*

There needs to be incredibly serious penalties for taking on Corruption, and that just didn't exist (in my opinion) in DH. In the Beta, there are great risks to being an acolyte via the revamped Corruption sub-system. I like the fact that you have to roll on the Malignancy Table each time your Corruption Bonus increases. I like the fact that it is **** hard to decrease corruption (my fellow acolytes have routinely lowered their corruption by transferring it to insanity). And I like the fact that you become very warp mutant-y at high corruption levels.

There do need to be some tweaks, however. I do think that there should be some way to mitigate your rolls on the Malignancy table rather than a way to mitigate rolls on the table entirely. Reduce by your Willpower Bonus, perhaps? Also, is it not odd that both 29 and 30 on the Malignancy Table have stacking options? As I read it, if you roll a 30 or a second 29, your character has hit 100 Corruption points and should be removed from the game.

The higher end options don't really apply to players- but to Psykers. They have a couple of perils that force them to roll on the malignancy table and add like, +15.

Because in reality, if you roll two 10s, which is the only way to get 30 [assuming you have a CB of 10, which means your dead anyways], then you've rolled doubles and you go to your signature and never actually get the 30 in the first place.

The problem with this system is that it doesn't allow for radical play and it doesn't even allow for puritan play. Your rolling every ten corruption points and theres tons of major mutations in there. Any puritan inquisitor is going to purge you straight off the bat when you get unlucky with your very first malignancy roll and end up with "corpulent mass of horrific and twisted muscle."

Sure, it happens, bad luck- try again. Is it fun? not really. Kills a character with a cheap, random shot, for doing your job and hunting down things that you'd be expected to give you corruption points.

In other news- no one likes the idea of revamping the Iron Will table to make it less Psyker more "Everybody should take this to help fight VS Insanity AND corruption"?

I agree with your assessment SwiftFox. I like that the table is scary. Also, so far as I can tell, only an Inquisitor can brush off gaining Corruption. It's SRS BSNS and rightfully so.

About the stackable effects on 29 and 30, I'm guessing it has to do with rolling for Malignancy with a bonus (er, should tat be penalty?) such as entry 27 "Permanent Mutation" on Table 6-1. That's a +15 modifier on your Malignancy role! Also, I guess there is the possibility that you could have gained Corruption up to the low 90s, rolled a 29, removed some Corruption to down to the high 80s, gained more past 90 again and rolled then rolled another 29.

Any puritan inquisitor is going to purge you straight off the bat when you get unlucky with your very first malignancy roll and end up with "corpulent mass of horrific and twisted muscle."

Sounds like an intriguing plot development to me. An Acolyte in that situation would suddenly need to keep secrets from the Inqusition, need to make allies to protect him from his own boss, obtain some kind of gruesome surgical relief ... love it!

Yes, I agree, this is great!

But at rank 1!? 10 corruption isn't much! Its not much at all! Failing a couple of checks could net you that much!

You haven't had time to develop your character yet- to develop your contacts, to access to these means.

And unless you start off playing some sort of insane warp-loving individual, the very act of having this stuff happen to you would likely mean some sort of self-purging/suicide!

So what this boils down to is ... discouraging players from starting as Unsanctioned Psykers (unless they really want to play an "insane warp-loving individual"). Since that is one of the most dangerous things anyone can be in the world of 40k, I guess it makes sense.

The higher end options don't really apply to players- but to Psykers. They have a couple of perils that force them to roll on the malignancy table and add like, +15.

Because in reality, if you roll two 10s, which is the only way to get 30 [assuming you have a CB of 10, which means your dead anyways], then you've rolled doubles and you go to your signature and never actually get the 30 in the first place.

The problem with this system is that it doesn't allow for radical play and it doesn't even allow for puritan play. Your rolling every ten corruption points and theres tons of major mutations in there. Any puritan inquisitor is going to purge you straight off the bat when you get unlucky with your very first malignancy roll and end up with "corpulent mass of horrific and twisted muscle."

Sure, it happens, bad luck- try again. Is it fun? not really. Kills a character with a cheap, random shot, for doing your job and hunting down things that you'd be expected to give you corruption points.

I guess this becomes a YMMV scenario. I'm not sure how often you or your GM throws out corruption, but it does not happen too often in our DH campaigns. In our games, you're more likely to suffer Insanity than Corruption unless we're fighting high-level sorcerers or actual deamons. My current character has been through about 40-ish sessions over a year and only has 12 corruption. We do a lot of investigations and not as much out and out fighting. But this is probably very campaign specific.

And yes, bad luck DOES HAPPEN. This is a more general issue that I have with RPGs as a whole. Bad luck should happen to player characters. It sucks, but guess what, it happens to everyone. If the poor Guardsman acolyte is stupid enough to pick up the daemon weapon, rolls a 10 on a d10 to see how much corruption he gains, and then rolls a couple of 10s for the Malignancy Table and becomes a horrible Chaos mutant, then it just wasn't his day. I don't really see the problem with this.

When our group first started playing FFG games a couple three years ago, we used to joke that DH's title was actually Dark Heresy: You Die. Having played it solid for a while, I whole-heartily reject this title and changed it to Dark Heresy: You Live, because it is damned hard to kill a PC. At least this hold true in our two plus year campaign, which has seen a single permanent character death. I applaud the malignancy rules and the changes to the wound system because it moves the game back to what I idealized the DH to be: an incredibly scary and risky career for acolytes that should see high turnover for characters that make poor choices and low turnover for the overly paranoid (which, honestly, any decent acolyte should be).

But, this is entirely YMMV. Others see DH in a completely different light and context. And hey, that's entirely fair. I'm just trying to explain my perspective on this issue.

In other news- no one likes the idea of revamping the Iron Will table to make it less Psyker more "Everybody should take this to help fight VS Insanity AND corruption"?

I can agree with you here. I think there needs to be some tweaks to this table, with either tweaked talents, new talents, and/or lower prerequisites, to make mental fortitude more applicable to all characters rather than just psykers. There probably, for example, should an a corruption version of Jaded (i.e. Armour of Contempt). Though to continue with my own thematic and campaign preferences for DH, most non-psyker characters should not probably not be experiencing that much corruption on a session by session basis where investing heavily in this tree should be the priority.

About the stackable effects on 29 and 30, I'm guessing it has to do with rolling for Malignancy with a bonus (er, should tat be penalty?) such as entry 27 "Permanent Mutation" on Table 6-1. That's a +15 modifier on your Malignancy role! Also, I guess there is the possibility that you could have gained Corruption up to the low 90s, rolled a 29, removed some Corruption to down to the high 80s, gained more past 90 again and rolled then rolled another 29.

Yeah, I hadn't considered that as I was purely looking through the perspective of a non-psyker (never played a psyker and may never do so as I'm not a fluff fan of 'em).