okay, so minion groups can be very dangerous. you can still dust off storm troopers. that's good to know. I look at Han in Ep 4 for example; I don't think people remember how absurd the power of his blaster pistol was. He would point in the general direction of a crowd of stormtroopers, fire wildly, and take them out one or two at a time. Everything he fired at exploded somehow and the Stormtroopers were doing nothing but missing and tripping over eachother. I would like to think that the game could feel like that. I'm still a bit worried about how group skills ramp up their accuracy. I do plan on testing the game this week.

Thanks.

It can, and it does, especially when one's rolling 3y+ and a couple blues.

There's also the matter of Han not being a starting level PC, and instead having plenty of experience under his belt by the time of Episode IV. So he's got at least an Agility of 4 with three ranks in Ranged (Light), which against an Easy difficulty for being at Short Range, means he's going to roll a lots of successes, enough to take out at least one stormtrooper per shot. Luke only managed it in EpIV because he was using a blaster rifle, so a single success is enough to drop a stormtrooper. Leia's a bit tougher seeing as how she's typically using a light blaster pistol, so she'd either need to be rolling huge piles of successes or lots of Advantage to trigger a critical hit to take a trooper down, though she did use a blaster rifle during EpIV and EpV during the scenes were she got most of her trooper kills, so it'd probably be the same situation as it was for Luke; one net success = defeated stormtrooper.

Okay, I added an item about how attachments and modifications work.

It can also be noted and reiterated that:

1. every stormtrooper downed is one Ranged (Heavy) skill rank less, so not only are there less attackers but they're less likely to hit, and

2. a Minion goes down -- or a group suffers one Minion's worth of wounds (with one of the members being incapacitated) -- immediately if they incur a Critical Injury, so even with a blaster pistol you can down a Minion if you roll enough Advantages.

Whereas as Donovan Morningfire said, the blaster rifles in Episodes IV and V let Luke and Leia's successes punch through the Soak 5 (3 from Brawn + 2 from laminate armor) to put the stormtroopers at five wounds per hit... although, isn't it actually six wounds that would incapacitate the stormtroopers, or is "exceed the wound threshold, not match it, to incapacitate" a player thing?

It can also be noted and reiterated that:

1. every stormtrooper downed is one Ranged (Heavy) skill rank less, so not only are there less attackers but they're less likely to hit, and

2. a Minion goes down -- or a group suffers one Minion's worth of wounds (with one of the members being incapacitated) -- immediately if they incur a Critical Injury, so even with a blaster pistol you can down a Minion if you roll enough Advantages.

Whereas as Donovan Morningfire said, the blaster rifles in Episodes IV and V let Luke and Leia's successes punch through the Soak 5 (3 from Brawn + 2 from laminate armor) to put the stormtroopers at five wounds per hit... although, isn't it actually six wounds that would incapacitate the stormtroopers, or is "exceed the wound threshold, not match it, to incapacitate" a player thing?

"A bit"? It's the difference between one-shotting 'em and not, although at least stormtroopers could retreat for tactical reasons, such as being one wound from dropping, buying the protagonists a breather... good thing they weren't facing CompForce Assault troopers, they would have kept going!

"A bit"? It's the difference between one-shotting 'em and not, although at least stormtroopers could retreat for tactical reasons, such as being one wound from dropping, buying the protagonists a breather... good thing they weren't facing CompForce Assault troopers, they would have kept going!

From the sessions I played at GenCon as run under Sam Stewart and Sterling Hershey, as well as some of the ones I watched while simply passing through the FFG RPG room, they were running minion groups as "damage equal to Wound Threshold" takes down a minion. So in the case of stormtroopers, you'd just need to do 10 damage to drop one of them (5 to get past their Soak Value, another 5 to hit their Wound Threshold). And by the same token, a PC was taken out of the action the moment they're Strain equaled the Strain Threshold, and same for a Rival NPC when the damage they'd taken equaled their Wound Threshold.

Whether that's truly the gospel on how minion groups are run is up for debate, as I saw a few instances where the GMs couldn't remember an exact rule and just made something up on the fly rather than stop the action to flip through a rulebook. But if enough FFG-sponsored GMs, including two that worked on the rulebook itself, are all doing the same thing, kinda makes you wonder if the intent was that each reference to "exceeds Threshold" in the book actually means "equals or exceeds Threshold instead." And frankly, saying a minion (or anyone else) drops once damage equals Threshold is a lot easier to track without having to also essentially add +1 Wound to the total Wound Threshold for having to just exceed it.

Hey gents,

The rules are pretty clear on these points (underlined emphasis mine).

Per page 315 (again, underlined emphasis mine):

When a PC suffers wounds greater than his wound threshold , he is knocked out and incapacitated until his wounds are reduced so that they no longer exceed his wound threshold (likely through healing).

And per page 390 :

The minion group has a single wound threshold, shared by all members of the group. (For example, a group of 3 stormtroopers - each with a wound threshold of 5 - has a wound threshold of 15.) Each time any member of the group suffers wounds, the wounds are applied to the group's wound threshold. Individual members of the group are defeated one at a time each time the wound suffered exceeds that member's share of the wound threshold. For example, when the stormtrooper group passes 5 wounds, one stormtrooper is defeated.

So in all cases, a target must suffer wounds in excess of its threshold in order to be defeated. There is no case I'm aware of in which a creature is defeated when its wounds suffers only equals its threshold.

although, isn't it actually six wounds that would incapacitate the stormtroopers, or is "exceed the wound threshold, not match it, to incapacitate" a player thing?

Correct, a group of stormtrooper minions does not lose its first member until it has suffered its sixth wound.

That's RAW, though Donovan Morningfire's post said that FFG-sponsored GMs "including two that worked on the rulebook itself", were essentially house-ruling-on-the-fly (in the sense of "not RAW") to "equals or exceeds", which may hint at a possible tweak in AoR or FaD if not first EotE errata.

Ah okay. It seemed like there was misunderstanding or confusion about the rules as described in the book.

Carry on, then.

For what it's worth, since blaster carbines and blaster rifles both deal out 9 damage (differing in Range, Encumbrance and Price) I'm guessing that that 10th, stormtrooper-dropping point of damage is coming from "+1 damage for a net success, not just additional successes".

That's RAW, though Donovan Morningfire's post said that FFG-sponsored GMs "including two that worked on the rulebook itself", were essentially house-ruling-on-the-fly (in the sense of "not RAW") to "equals or exceeds", which may hint at a possible tweak in AoR or FaD if not first EotE errata.

Which is odd for me, since the dictionary definition of 'threshold' is: "n. The point that must be exceeded to begin producing a given effect or result or to elicit a response."

Using the word 'threshold', to me, implicitly means that the creators meant for the mechanic to mirror the meaning of the words used to define it. IMO a character's "wound threshold" is the numerical value which determines the maximum amount of wounds the character can receive; exceeding this number causes incapacitation.

RAW page 31 says, "Wound Threshold A character's wound threshold represents how much physical damage he can withstand before he is knocked out."

IMO RAI of RAW is: If a character has a 15 wound threshold, they can withstand 15 wounds before he is knocked out. On the 15th wound he isn't knocked out because that is still before he is knocked out. However anything beyond the 15th wound is exceeding the wound threshold and the character suffers deleterious effects as per normal RAW.

See Donovan's post, this isn't supposed to be a semantics argument... but it's something to throw on the "ask Sam Stewart" list.

Alright, if someone wants to check with Jay or Sam and verify what the rules are supposed to be, I'll note it in the errata thread. I did read Donovan's post and it just served to confuse me. The rules in the book are perfectly clear about how damage and thresholds work. I do find it weird that the game's designers would not run it the way they wrote it. I'm at a loss to explain that.

Well, look, the devs and designers on Edge of the Empire are not infallible human beings with perfect memories. They sometimes get rules wrong just like everyone else. I played in one of the games that Dono was referring to and I can tell you that, more often than not, these guys would rather just make up something at the table and keep the game moving when a question about a particular rule comes up that nobody knows the answer to offhand.

Had they intended to change the paradigm, they had a golden opportunity to do so in the Age of Rebellion beta. The fact that they didn't seems to suggest that the rules as written are also the rules as intended in this case.

Actually it is worse than that. Anyone who has helped design a game can tell you that dozens of potential rule variants exist for every one that is finally decided upon. I know I can often remember game rules easier for games I did not develop than for those that I did.

Especially small decisions like numbers, stats, or, when to mechanically flip a switch.

Alright, if someone wants to check with Jay or Sam and verify what the rules are supposed to be, I'll note it in the errata thread. I did read Donovan's post and it just served to confuse me. The rules in the book are perfectly clear about how damage and thresholds work. I do find it weird that the game's designers would not run it the way they wrote it. I'm at a loss to explain that.

Make sure to bring up what Donovan said about their GMing at GenCon 2013; I didn't find it weird at all what Donovan was indicating, RAW vs. what the game designers themselves were actually doing and the notability of how it was consistently the same particular "on-the-fly" ruling/interpretation by multiple FFG-sponsored GMs in this gathering, including two of the game's designers... not least because (I agree with Donovan here) "equals or exceeds" is a helluva lot more intuitive and easier to track.

I have no line of contact to any of those gentlemen, so I'll be waiting for the answer just like everyone else.

Hopefully they'll do another Q&A session on the Order 66 podcast or something.

See Donovan's post, this isn't supposed to be a semantics argument... but it's something to throw on the "ask Sam Stewart" list.

I wouldn't even call it that. It was just an observation based on those sessions I either participated in or bore brief witness to.

Frankly, for NPCs, having the GM simply say "okay, bad guy #4 took damage equal to his Wound Threshold... he drops." makes things easier instead of having to worry about that one extra point, particularly when dealing with minions, as it makes the PC feel just that little bit cooler for having taken down two bad guys with a single shot instead of only one, particularly if it was a lucky roll on their part.

I'm inclined to agree with Donovan above. If a NPC took damage equal to his Wound Threshold, 99 times out of 100 I'd have the NPC fall to the ground incapacitated or dead just to keep things moving and not get bogged down by NPCs lingering and taking up game time with just 1 Wound point left.

I remember plenty of 4e D&D sessions where I'd have NPCs that'd take almost enough damage to drop and then adding another round of combat to finish off. Sometimes it's just easier to go with the flow and call equal to WT good enough to better service the narrative and keep things moving.

If the NPC is important to the plot for some reason and I need them to linger a bit, then maybe I'd keep them around if they still had 1 Wound left.

On an unrelated note, any reason a NPC couldn't take a stimpack? If an important NPC is exactly at their WT and you don't want them to drop just yet, let them zap themselves with a stim...

On an unrelated note, any reason a NPC couldn't take a stimpack? If an important NPC is exactly at their WT and you don't want them to drop just yet, let them zap themselves with a stim...

Not that I have found, except for the concern about letting combat drag on longer.

What weapons are compatible with the weighted head melee weapon attachment to?

There are no melee weapons in the Edge of the Empire Core Rulebook to which a weighted head can be attached, because none of them have sufficient hard points to support one. However, it is possible that melee weapons introduced in future products will be able to make use of a weighted head. (Note, although the Tinkerer talent can add hard points to a weapon, additional ranks only allow the tinkerer to add 1 extra hard point to additional weapons, it does not allow a tinkerer to add more than 1 hard point to a single weapon.)

Doesnt the Force Pike have a hard point rating of 3 and this attachment only need 2 hard points? Or am i missing something?

Perhaps a mention of the Specializations with the same name being the same specialization regardless of career or book?

What weapons are compatible with the weighted head melee weapon attachment to?

There are no melee weapons in the Edge of the Empire Core Rulebook to which a weighted head can be attached, because none of them have sufficient hard points to support one. However, it is possible that melee weapons introduced in future products will be able to make use of a weighted head. (Note, although the Tinkerer talent can add hard points to a weapon, additional ranks only allow the tinkerer to add 1 extra hard point to additional weapons, it does not allow a tinkerer to add more than 1 hard point to a single weapon.)

Doesnt the Force Pike have a hard point rating of 3 and this attachment only need 2 hard points? Or am i missing something?

I believe that the Force Pike is an 'edged' weapon.

I believe that the Force Pike is an 'edged' weapon.

Doesnt the Force Pike have a hard point rating of 3 and this attachment only need 2 hard points? Or am i missing something?

What weapons are compatible with the weighted head melee weapon attachment to?

There are no melee weapons in the Edge of the Empire Core Rulebook to which a weighted head can be attached, because none of them have sufficient hard points to support one. However, it is possible that melee weapons introduced in future products will be able to make use of a weighted head. (Note, although the Tinkerer talent can add hard points to a weapon, additional ranks only allow the tinkerer to add 1 extra hard point to additional weapons, it does not allow a tinkerer to add more than 1 hard point to a single weapon.)

I hadnt thought of this.... Wookiepedia can enlighten us: "The tip of the pole was a vibro-edged head with a stun module" Quoted from the force pike entry