Corradus said:

If nothing else, they can report you to the moderators if things get too belligerent, so keep that in mind as well.

I'm not the biggest fan of Lucas' directing ability (or lack thereof) by any stretch, but he's got a valid point that such a discussion as zero relation to when FFG will be producing physical dice. One poster (AluminumWolf) already got the boot for constantly dragging threads into off-topic and inflammatory topics.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I was wondering what happened there.

Anyway, I'd expect the Beginner's box to be the first chance anyone has to get physical dice. It's been listed as "at the printers" almost 4 weeks now and slated for a Q4 2012 release, so it should be heading to warehouses soon-ish. After that, physical dice should be available "early 2013" with the core book.

-WJL

Oh, is the core book no longer Q4 2012? I guess that would be unrealistic at this point. I mean, the game has changed a great deal these past few weeks. Although I have to wonder, if the Beginner's Box is at the printer, are all of the changes that we're seeing here making it into that product? I would assume so, since they can print the maps, tokens boxes and such.

I wonder if we'll hit a cutoff point soon where no more design changes will be made, and the Beginner Box books will be finalized and then printed. I feel like we have to be coming up on that.

Either way, I will still pick one up to get those dice and other goodies.

Venthrac said:

I'm sorry, maybe I missed something. When was the core book for EotE ever a Q4 2012 release? GenCon In-flight report said "early 2013", and I was unaware this had ever changed.

I've heard second-hand from other posters there has been announced a 1.Dec cut-off for beta feedback.

-WJL

LethalDose said:

Deadline is provided here .

I feel like it should also be mentioned that the lead dev, Jay Little,

-WJL

I thought I had read somewhere that the Core Rulebook was a Q4 2012 thing, but I might well be thinking of the Beginner Box instead. That's probably the case, now that I reflect further on it.

Creating the Beginners Box can (potentially) have nothing to do with the changes coming from the beta. [shrug]

The Beginner's Box will be a canned adventure. Pre-gens. Pre-made equipment. Not a full ruleset. Just a "quick start" set of rules.

But it should tell you that the core dice mechanic ain't gonna change.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Huh. No kidding?

It's pleasing to see that the mod's here take those things seriously. :-)

Venthrac said:

Yeah, just the Beginner Box has been announced for a Q4 2012 release date. So far, no word on the EotE final book, but I figure we'll hear something not too long after the December 1st deadline for feedback passes.

GM Chris said:

That's my best guess, seeing as how posts that I know were made by him are now showing as "Unknown" and either with no icon or the icon of a previous poster in the thread. I heard from Cyril he was getting really out of hand, though I'd stopped reading his posts long before.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Yes, the Mods have the power, but until they exercise it, I will speak as I see fit to. As for them removing the Aluminum Wolf, all I ever saw of him was some lateral thinking that seemed to make everyone around here nuts. If he was really crossing the lines and becoming abusive, then yeah, he deserved to be dumped. Maybe I am old, but in a medium where all you need to do to be free of an opinion you don't like is to scroll down, I am and have always been mystified as to why banning is/was necessary.

As for physical dice, I kinda thought it was a mite ***** that people were citing a concern that the dice could change when the Beginner's Box was slated for release at Christmastime and I very much doubt they'd have allowed defective dice for that item. I don't think they'd have ever changed the dice, and that being the case, I maintain contention that they could have made physical dice available for the Beta - and that failing to do so, along with choosing to create a game with the name Star Wars that leaves out about 60% of what Star Wars has traditionally been is going to cost them. Let's hope not too dearly I'd like to see this game live long enough to eventually create a core book that lets me run what I really want to.

Corradus said:

Well, there is a huge gulf between "lateral thinking", "excessive whining," and "inflammatory comments that are abusive and deragatory in nature." Scrolling down past a post is one thing, it's another matter when said poster is making open and blatantly personal attacks against other posters.

However, back to topic…

Given the low volume of physical copies (5000 is a pretty small print-run for a big-name RPG company) and the options presented (stickers or dice app), they probably didnt feel the need to create such a large number of dice that could very well have just been setting around in a warehouse, costing them valuable dollars to pay for storage. Then there's the fact that for all they knew, the dice math could have been a royal flub (kinda like how Force powers were prior to the Week 2 update), so they'd have been out even more money if they'd had actual dice made. First and foremost, FFG is a business, and they have to make their decisions based upon what is ultimately best for the business, both in terms of producting quality product and being able to pay all the bills. Given most RPG companies work months in advance of when something is released to the public, having oddles of dice on hand when the Beta was announced was likely seen as far too risky a gamble. Besides, they got enough folks complaining about how all the various updates have invalidated half the Beta book they paid good money for, so imagine the pooh-storm that would have erupted if told their $15+ set of custom dice (that are only usuable of this one game) were also largely invalidated.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Yeah, see, I really have trouble with that argument. I don't think there are that many people complaining about how the Beta is invalid, and if there really, truly are than honestly, people are having trouble reading fine print. The Beta is what the Beta is. You buy it because you want an idea of what the game is going to be and a chance to put some input on the final product. If someone honestly bought the Beta thinking it would be a static thing then they weren't paying attention and that's not FFG's problem. That being the case, I will again cite that I find it a tetch strange that people will accept (most people anyhow), that a Beta BOOK will be rendered obsolete with the release of the game but apparently they'll lose they minds if the Dice are. I submit that such arguments are like unto a dog that doth not hunt.

Corradus said:

Gamers have long grown accustomed to errata for their books. You print out the pages, or what have you, and you're done.

Errata to their dice? Not so much. I'm unsure why that's difficult to sympathize with. Especially given the fact they're forced to use custom-face dice. It's no longer a matter of crossing out a line of text, or refrencing a stray piece of paper. That physical thing they just roll no longer produces the results they're supposed to; by any rational definition of the word they are broken.

Your dice are broken.

You can't understand why some gamers might have a problem with that?

selderane said:

No. I can't. Edge of the Empire isn't just a book, it's a game. Which means that if it's marketed in its Beta Stage, it is generally understood that EVERYTHING about this game is Beta - Everything. The cover, the layout, the type face, the chapter headings, the pictures, the dice stickers…and the dice. The ENTIRE GAME is experimental, a prototype, subject to change - GUARANTEED to change. Which means anything you get with the name "Edge of the Empire" on it from now until the game is officially released is tentative. This means that the whole **** game is broken from the moment you get it . You AGREE to those terms when you purchase the product.

If this included dice, gamers would have no business complaining about it.

You're right in one respect, over the years, companies have played the Errata game, indeed we already have gotten used to purchasing beta copies of a game book - it's just that back in the day they called the First Editions. But things are different now, and as consumers of RPG's we need to think differently. And many of us do. The problem with your opinion Donovan is that it only gives gamers half credit. They can accept a game BOOK that will be basically useless in a couple of months, (and believe me, very few people will make any extensive use of this book once the finalized core book comes out), but there's no way on earth they'll take that from dice? A commodity that will be cheaper than the book? Sorry. It just does not follow.

Corradus said:

3WhiteFox3 said:

It would have been more appropriate if you said "fully operational" (in your best Palpatine voice).

In all seriousness, I think we're guessing at best… Based on the seeming lack of dev interest in the dice mechanics thread (?) I'd guess the physical dice are at least fixed and not changing… But I'd also guess everything else is still fair game.

3WhiteFox3 said:

Well sure it is…until the thousands of playtesters find a catastrophic failure point and/or make other changes for various reasons. Every game designer believes they have a working game when they put it out the door. The actual process of testing however often proves differently.

Not to mention that in order for us to test the game in the first place, yeah, it had to be a working game - but that doesn't mean it's the final version, and as a beta tester - devs remarks or no - you have to realize that when they stick the word "Beta" on it, anything can change.

Venthrac said:

Yeah, I thought I read that the Dice and Core book were both due in 4th quarter. But I learned of the game threw fan mails and those have given bad dates.

I'm rather picky about the dice, because a table member was found with a modified dice for better rolls! so any official Info would make my day!!

Corradus said:

There's another aspect of Beta that many people overlook. By the time something reaches Beta, the major systems & functionality are set and won't be changed. Even Alpha is too late for core system changes that will deeply impact the rest of the project.

Alpha: Core functionality designed and largely implemented. Some subsystems may still be stubs, but they won't be for long.

Beta: Core functionality designed and implemented. Non-breaking changes still allowed, and subsystems will be subject to revision and bug-fixes.

If you change the *dice* at this stage of development there isn't a single bit of the rules which won't be directly and *deeply* impacted by those changes. If you do this anyway, you've no longer got a system in Beta, you've got a system in Redevelopment. (Likely 2+ years of work left to do.)

Disagree. Swapping a couple of faces to show more success and less advantage doesn't change the mechanics at all. It just impacts the chances you'll see a given symbol. Let's not confuse "change the dice" with "revamp the dice mechanics"…

Exalted5 said:

Hear Hear.

Corradus said:

Yep, this is more of a balance adjustment that a systemic change.

Exalted5 said:

No, he used the stickers to cover the modifications to the dice themselves

Gurby said:

[shakes head] That would get a player banned from my group. Just sayin'.

"No way!! Dude… you WON STAR WARS! Congratulations. You've won. No use playing any longer… clearly . Thanks for playing. And again, congratulations on the win. You can see yourself out… and we'll keep playing. Maybe WE can win Star Wars eventually."