GM Chris said:

Eventually, yes, a "generic, non-era specific" Star Wars RPG should include playable Jedi that are capable of some of the high-end tricks (Force Lightning, redirecting blaster fire, quasi-mystical healing, deflecting blaster bolts with their hands, etc). But as you said, Edge of the Empire is not that game, nor has it even pretended to be that game.

I'll call back to the early days of the SW Galaxies MMO, where Jedi PCs were an incredibly rare thing to see. That game, set in the Rebellion Era, really only started dying off when Jedi were allowed to be generated en masse, to the point where you couldn't swing a dead monkey lizard without at least a dozen Jedi trying to block it with their ligthsabers. While the combat upgrades caused more than it's share of the grief amidst the fanbase, the overabundance of Jedi drove way a large chunk of that fanbase.

Another poster in another thread put it pretty well that FFG's proposed plan of "three corebooks" mirrors the much-beloved Original Trilogy. The first installment are the riff-raff of the Outer Rims, independent operators that are simply trying to get by in a galaxy that's fallen more and more into the hands of an oppressive regime. The second installment will be for those brave enough to put aside their petty concerns and stand up to that regime for something better. The final installment will be for those who either strive to maintain or have rediscoverd the traditions of a noble order and the lore pertaining to the source of that order's strength, things that the oppresive regime is actively trying to suppress, with the chance to either become some of the greatest heroes the galaxy has ever known or some of its most vile villains.

Besides, it's sometimes better to start small and expand gradually, adding spices and ingredients to the stew as they are needed rather than just try to dump everything into a single pot and hope it works out. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Not to stir the hornets nest, but….

In all honesty, per the brief description of the Force book, we may not get "official jedi" ever. We will be given the tools to make them, but the book seems to ref. people trying to become jedi, or people that use the force that are not jedi. (That kinda sticks with lore).

$hamrock said:

Well, for Edge of the Empire, that approach makes perfect sense.

But FFG has said that the third book is "Force and Destiny" and will be primarily about playing Jedi, and will likely include, if not a full chapter, at least some suggestions on running campaigns set in other eras when the Jedi were at the heights of their power. In that book, there's like to be a full-blown Jedi Career, possibly broken down into two or three categories, with specializations under each branch. I could see arguments both for and against making Jedi Sentinel a specialization under the Jedi Guardian career (kinda like how BioWare did with SW:TOR) rather than a full-blown career in its own right. You could probably also have a couple of generic Force-user careers, one with a more spiritual bent for shamans, mystics, and the like, and then one with a more martial or physical leaning for warrior-based traditions, with each having specializations based off existing Force Traditions such as the Dathomir Witches, Fallanassi, Killian Rangers, Matukai, and Zieson Sha.

Donovan Morningfire said:

"Finally, in Star Wars: Force and Destiny, the players become figures of legend: the last surviving Force users in the galaxy. Hunted by the Empire, they must stay alive, and more importantly, stay true to the ideals of their forebears—the fabled Jedi."

That doesn't say "you are a jedi", and as far as I know that is the only "official" description of it.
That says forebears, the fabled Jedi- meaning they are gone and you're trying to live up to what they were. It is utterly impossible for one in the current to be an ancestor (forbear). no matter how much I want to be George Washington, Abe Lincoln, or even one of my own ancestors, I am not that person. Again, most likely just a title thing, as I am sure one will be very jedi-like in their skills.

$hamrock said:

Well, by the Rebellion Era, the Jedi Order as it existed during the days of the Republic are gone, so being able to play "practically trained from birth" Jedi is going to be nigh-impossible. However, there is the example of Luke Skywalker and the initial crop of Jedi that he trained. While they may not have had the benefit of life-long training, they certainly were Jedi.

Now while having full-fledged Jedi/Force careers is one way to go, another option that I mentioned in a different thread was the concept of "advanced careers," of a similar vein to d20 Prestige Classes or even WFRP2e's Advanced Classes. Pretty much, these would be specializations you could only take after satisfying certain requirements. For example, a Jedi Guardian advanced spec could require a minimum of Force Rating 2 as well as 2 ranks in Lightsaber and Vigilance and maybe even a combat-centric talent or two in order to purchase it, while a Jedi Consular advanced spec would still have the Force Rating 2 requirement, but different skill and/or talent requirements.

The Advanced Spec method would be a way to reflect how characters are following Luke's path to becoming a Jedi Knight, namely being trained as a Jedi much later in life, in short allowing those people that have been playing characters from Edge of the Empire a means to enter into various Force-using specs without being entirely lagging behind freshly-made characters using Force & Destiny.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Good points…

In honesty, I question more the "what are they going to fight?" then anything else, assuming they stay in the current time period. A near jedi, insinuates there is still some room for growth, ie lower power level. The "good" thing about the jedi running in short supply, it means the sith/dark jedi are also running low, again assuming they stick with movie canon. That means, pretty much… Vader, as far as sith are concerned.

Your prior post brought some other groups up, like the witches, but I can't see an entire campaign run around them, especially if the whole group isn't composed of force users.

Just seems like a jedi would eat a squad of storm troopers, and the stuff that is going to be a challenge to the jedi is going to rip the bounty hunters/doctors/ etc…. a new ass.

Note: this is an interesting debate to me, I'm not trying to be all ******* with you or anything. You articulate well… and I tend to gravitate towards that.

The FFG approach, as I understand it, is to release three different 'games' for the Star Wars RPG (as opposed to three different 'books'). I fully support the idea that you can have a fulfulling RP experience without laser swords and magic powers.

If story telling is the central mechanic of an RPG, this approach makes perfect sense. The first game will be RP in the SW universe in a time period where the Jedi are essentially extinct. The force still exists (via the force sensitive exile talent tree). You still have the aliens, the droids, the blasters. While the force can still dominate your destiny, it isn't essential to include Jedi as a 'playable class' or whatever.

Let the Jedi have their game - just not Edge of the Empire, however.

May the Force be with you.

$hamrock said:

As for the "who are they going to fight?", I'd imagine it'd be very much akin to the old WEG version, which was predominantly set in the Rebellion Era with a bit of early New Republic era, where your Jedi heroes would be battling the Empire and various criminals, same as the rest of the heroes. Not every foe a Jedi faces has to be a Dark Jedi or similar; in fact, too many dark side Force-users as opponents drastically weakens their value as memorable antagonists. Unless FFG goes in a radically different direction for Force & Destiny than they did with EotE, then even Henchman level threats are going to remain threats to a Jedi Knight. And non-Jedi heroes can be just as dangerous due to not having to spend XP on buying and upgrading Force powers, but rather on talents and most importantly on skills. Again, barring a radical revision, Jedi are going to generally have low skill ratings compared to non-Jedi heroes. Much as they've been in every prior version of a Star Wars RPG.

While even in the D6 version of Star Wars a Jedi Knight level hero was sheer terror to be reckoned with due to the insane versatility they had, I think with FFG's approach of powers generally being more distinct will help alleviate that, permitting non-Jedi heroes to still pitch in, particularly with non-combat things, and even the combat-focused characters are still going to be able to contribute meaningfully to a fight; after all, a Jedi's main weapon requires him to get into close-quarters to hit, while a heavy blaster pistol will drop a minion just as easily and from a much safer distance.

Also, when it comes to challenging a Jedi hero, the GM should take a page out of the movies. Had Luke been present during the Bunker Battle on Endor, he probably would have made things a lot easier for the heroes. But instead, he off furthering his own plot line, which played into Lando and Han's respective missions. In TPM, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan split off from Amidala's crew to deal with Darth Maul, leaving the other heroes up to conduct their primary mission but without the help of a powerful Jedi Master and his very competent sidekick. Heck, having just Obi-Wan along would have made the Queen's task that much easier. In short, arrange things so that the Jedi has to handle a particularly daunting yet relevant challenge on their own, leaving the rest of the group to achieve the main goal.

There's also the element of encounter design. Episode #37 of the Order 66 podcast, titled "The List", is a very astute breakdown of how to design an encounter that is both interesting and challenging. Although the crunch aspects are for Saga Edition, GM Chris gives some **** good advice on tips and tricks to make a combat encounter more than just a straight-out slugfest, including advice on giving non-combat characters stuff to do during combat.

And no offense inferred or taken. And if said debate provides some food for thought for the game's writers, then so much the better

I'd have thought the Emperors' Shadow Guard would work quite nicely as lightsaber (ish) wielding force user dudes to provide opposition and duelling opportunities:-

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor's_Shadow_Guard

AluminiumWolf said:

And I have a question for all of you who don't think Edge of Empire would have Jedi in it, or rather 2. First, is do you think all Jedi died during Order 66?

Second: If the answer is no to the first question, where do you think they'd run to?

I don't know about you, but Tattooine and Dagobah sound very much like… The Edge Of The Empire to me.

For the record, though, I'd rather NOT have true Jedi. Not because they're over powered, but because every one thinks they are.

Chris Brady said:

It's all but canon that there were at least some survivors other than Obi-Wan and Yoda, particularly with them changing the beacon message in RotS to tell survivors to hide.

And yeah, sticking to various worlds in the Outer Rim Territories would be a solid place to hide out. After all, various criminals and refugees have been doing that for centuries to evade Republic justice, and the Empire wouldn't be much different, especially if said Jedi kept a low profile and pretty much didn't use their powers.

There should be Force users/Force sensitives in the game. It's not Star Wars without them. I like the basic Force powers and abilities they have in the game. You have no less (or more) of the rare chance of being born Force sensitive in this era than any other. It's what happens after and how you train that is different.

Non-Jedi Force sensitives are awesome to play and maybe more fun in this setting than in a Jedi -heavy one. All the more reason to include it as an option.

The Force does not have to equal Jedi.

usgrandprix said:

Agree totally. Whilst the chances of being born Force Sensitive are the same, I'd argue that as harsh as life is on the Rim, it's far safer there for a Force Sensitive in this era. Being born a Force Sensitive near the Core Worlds seriously hampers your life expectancy I'd imagine, with Vader, Inquisitors, Jedi hunters, etc.

Being a force sensitive on the Rim would still be a constant challenge for a character though. To paraphrase LotR, Gandalf's mantra of 'keep it hidden, keep it safe' would certainly apply. Using powers openly and with no regard to who was watching you would be a death sentence. Either someone would turn you in at the nearest Imperial outpost/garrison or hand you over to a bounty hunter. You would need to surround yourself with people you trust, knowing full well that irresponsible use of your gifts would **** them too. You would favour those abilities in the Force that were not flash or showy, because those would be less likely to give you away. And if you were discovered, you would need to flee, change your name and appearance, becoming another blank face in the crowd.

But there would still be a chance to grow, and improve. There are Force traditions out on the Rim, unexplored worlds with natives that have come to their own understanding of the Force. And maybe, just maybe, there is a former Jedi out here on the Rim who has managed to stay one step ahead of the Empire since the ascension of Palpatine that can pass on some piece of crucial knowledge or bit of lore.

Chris Brady said:

Jedi are overpowered when compared to a bounty hunter. Not amongst themselves. But I fully support the "not true Jedi" ordeal, and from the write up of the force book FFG does as well.

As to a true Jedi…. I would need a couple questions answered for that, myself.

What is the point? Why? You would essentially be a glass cannon. One and done. It isn't just Vader that is out to get them, but the entire population, of…. everywhere. The Imperial propaganda machine let it be known that the current state of the galaxy is because of the Jedi betrayal. In addition they have rather high bounties on the capture or death of a jedi, but also on information leading to the capture or death of a jedi. (Why play a jedi, if you can't ever use the stills?). That said, the jedi code would bar them from attacking/mind wiping any bystanders that saw them act, and would thus report them for said rewards (especially in the outer rim where people are poorest). Screwed….

Vader, can sense them from rather far away. He just needs to be in a range and BAM. They would need to be a significant powerhouse in the force to avoid this.

It has been 20 years, give or take. I am sure some went into hiding, notably the scouts and what not that were away from the turmoil, but even their numbers would be reduced due to the time and Vader actively hunting for them.

Here is the hard one…. How dare said person call themselves a Jedi? Jedi are essentially the paladins of Star Wars…. You're gonna tell me that when trillions of beings were being enslaved, raped, murdered and tortured… starved to death, orbitaly bombarded, and death stared… they hid? When worlds are destroyed simply for helping hide them, or giving them supplies, they are not doing anything about that? That isn't standing up to the code, not in the least. One would need a dam good explanation for this.

Obi and Yoda were waiting to train Luke, so they have one… others would need something equally compelling.

End of questions…

Personally, if those can be managed, answered by the player, they have my attention…. When I think of the Jedi, I think of a force that stands up for what is right, a person beyond themselves, one who makes the last stand knowing they will die. One who places their lives in danger to protect those who can't protect themselves. If I had Jedi hiding all over the galaxy, I would take away from that aura, it would be…. "All of them fought to the last, except these dudes that ran and hid…. because…. well, they were *******!"

The code circa 32 BBY- (wookiepedia)

Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others, rather than rule over them, for the good of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training

It doesn't stutter… it doesn't say protect others (guardians of peace), etc… except when you're in danger. Self preservation isn't in the code!

Again, I don't really have too many problems with them other then continuity and needing a reason to be "there", and I would like something well thought out… not some BS "I was there to train Luke in the event yoda failed", or "I got the call", etc….

perhaps locked away on a far off moon, the ship broke, and I couldn't escape. I have been living by myself for 20 years, and the PCs happened upon the moon for emergency repairs… Something that covers all the questions.

This is one of the reasons I liked the WEG failed jedi, and addicted jedi classes. Self medicating over personal failure… I think that is a fantastic character to play in said age.

I think it is worth bearing in mind that people are probably expecting to play their Jedi under a GM who isn't going to be an ******* about it. :-)

More seriously, I think there is an expectation that since the PCs are the good guys, the universe will conspire to make them look good.

So in this case, the Empire is always a step behind the PCs. The PCs will encounter more people who remember the good the Jedi did and will shelter them from the authorities, and anyone who seems initially hostile will be quickly won around when the Jedi save them from pirates or show their fundamentally good natures.

Being on the run from The Man doing good makes the PCs look cool.

So, the Empires main Jedi Hunter will play a similar role to Colonel Decker in the A-Team, in that he will turn up at the end of an episode in convoy of flashing lights to make the PCs say a bitter sweet goodbye to this weeks grateful NPCs and move on to their next adventure.

And any evil the Empire get up to will just make The People hate the Empire and love the Jedi.

Thing is we've seen Jedi get killed by mooks, get betrayed and murdered by former non-force sensative allies, a good shot can kill them as easily as anyone else. They have funky powers, yes, but numbers and luck can play against them, just as skill can as well. Just like it can for any hero.

It truly depends on whose the 'star' of the story.

AluminiumWolf said:

Touche! I'll take that.

Let me ask you, because I see your other posts on these boards…. Do you allow female space marines? I'm not talking sisters of battle or anything of that nature, but honest to Emperor Space Marines? What's the difference? Do you allow one of your players to make a Space Marine for a new (starting off) Dark Heresy game, while all the other characters start out as normal characters? Do you have your Human Empire teaming up with Orcs, Dark Eldar, Necrons, or really anything other then humans (occasional Tau/eldar excluded)? What if you're player wants to play a Necron in Death Watch? Again, whats the difference?

I wouldn't, because that is not the story. If that makes me an *******, so be it.

I am not saying that EVERY planet is unfriendly towards Jedi. Surely the Wookies, Mon Cals, Bothans, etc… love them, I would leave the players alone on most of those worlds, with only a slight percent chance of being reported, depending on how flamboyant the jedi chose to get. However, to say that the majority of Nal Hutta, Tattooine, or any other outer rim planet wouldn't sell their sister into slavery for a few grand would set a tone in said places that would take away from the "scum and villainy" they are.

That small chance of being reported (on friendly planets), would change into a small chance of not being reported (on non-friendly planets). You have to keep in mind, due to the Imperial propaganda the majority of the population HATES the jedi. It isn't an attitude that promotes second chances, especially when talking about enough money to buy a city are concerned. Hell, Lando sold out one of his best friends for a lot less then that. (NOTE: I am not saying that the Empire is actually going to pay them, they will end up in a trash compactor as quickly as the jedi they turned in, but….)

I'm an ******* about it because that is the way life is for the Jedi at this time (or else why hide?), to immerse the players in what it is to be a jedi in this setting, one almost has to be an *******. (or they could shelter them and make everyone turn a blind eye, but that isn't the setting). Just saying….

That is just my campaign and the way I run it. To each their own… and more power to you. If you want ewok Imp Guards, that shoot death star, planet vaping, lasers from their bums every time they fart… so be it.

$hamrock said:

AluminiumWolf said:

Thinking of 'A New Hope', Luke wanted to join the Academy - the same Academy that the Imperial Navy picked the cream of the crop from. When Obi Wan drew his lightsaber in the cantina there wasn't a huge backslapping and three cheers from the cantina's patrons - they instead backed away and gave him a wide berth. The cantina owner also didn't hesitate to point the stormtroopers in the direction of Luke and Obi-Wan.

All of this points to 'don't bother the Empire and they won't bother you'. It is an acceptance of the status quo which would work well for Palpatine - an acquiesce of the Imperial yoke. This also complies with the Tarkin Doctrine of 'rule by fear of force'. The general opinion of the average Rim citizen towards the Empire wouldn't change IMHO until atrocities such as Alderaan started to become public knowledge.

As for the effectiveness of the Empire in the Outer Rim, that's probably down to the individual Games Master to call.

Players of Jedi during the Dark Times can be jerks just as much as GMs, running around using Force powers and expecting the GM to turn a blind eye just because they are players. I think players and GMs have to agree on what type of campaign they want to play and it all comes down to co-operating as it always does.

Jedi, even at the best of times, were always considered magicians or purveyors of superstitious nonsense. Especially so in the Outer Rim where they were rarely seen even at the height of their popularity. During the Dark Times, though, Imperial agents were everywhere and so were snitches. Hence the reason stormtroopers are put onto Luke and Obi-Wan as they try to escape Tantooine with Han and Chewie.

Playing the game where the group is like the A-Team and always just slipping the Imperial grasp is certainly viable and sounds fun. So does playing a Jedi low key without splashy powers or minimal powers. Right now I think both can be done.

Inquisitor Hans Landa: So you're "Aldo the Wookie".

Did I mention that "Aldo the Wookie" got his nickname for pulling Imperials arms out of their sockets with his force powers?

YES

jedi skills/abilities to a small extent, (as in this beta-book) are a must.

I don't think we need full detailed powers/talents/skills etc. until later

But playing a force sensitive with an "Obligation" of Responsibility, Oath, Duty Bound, or Obsession, and a "Motivation" to Overthrow the Empire, or Restore the past, or Status would be very fitting.

A small addition/notation that the Force-sensitive exile talent tree, might be that "this specialisation must be a second choice", may fit the fringer (jedi are rare) feel a little better, but I would still like to play a green force user trying to hide from, and get his companions to hide him from the Empire.

Step one: concept and background, "I was a farmer, before I noticed my talent to turn on the lights from across the room" should be the norm,(in this setting) not the "I use snub fighters as a tennis rackets vs armed troopers." type of force user. But that takes a strong GM at times to pull off.

AluminiumWolf said:

Luke's Empire issues come up after Uncle Owen gets blowed up, as the other poster noted his intent at the start was to go to the academy. His (the other posters) post was more then adequate to support itself so I'm not going to repeat it.

Also, note that the general population thinks the Empire is the way it is BECAUSE of the Jedi, and once the Jedi are indeed gone, things will go back to normal.

Regardless, I find that playing a strict game allows me to have full blown jedi running around, and prevents some of the "over power" because the player actually polices their self. More often they are more concerned about where and when a "power" in going to draw unwanted attention, then I am. It is kinda like the old Vampire game, where you were a vampire, but you didn't want anyone to know that, that you didn't intend to eat.

I do this, not over a hatred of the Jedi, but because i adore the setting. I want it to be as realistic as possible.

There are alot of variables that go along with Jedi, like who/what are the other players? If one is a bounty hunter, is the reward for the jedi too good to pass up? It isn't me driving that, it is the players. Do the other players (who are not jedi), what the headache of having a jedi around? Do they want to play second fiddle to the star of the show, because honestly, to do what you suggest means that I have to center on the Jedi, and so do the other players, because as soon as he "shows off", guess what? the party is leaving that area pretty quickly. Hope everyone got everything they wanted or needed to get done. Etc… It isn't just me being the butt head, it changes everything for everyone. If I am not enforcing the threat to the jedi, they take over everything, and the other players are like…. What the heck do you need me here for? Worse yet, what if the morals of the rest of the party are less then par for what the jedi adheres to? Surely, I can't have a ruthless character and a jedi knowingly cohabiting? (Its like the assassin and the paladin are going to get along? The paladin is going to "ROLE PLAY" the acceptance of needless death, ****, etc…?)

I am more interested in how they are going to work dark side influence in this game. That may well limit the force users in and of itself, and I won't have to do a dam thing about it. Something like, every time you get more darkside faces then light, on the dice, while using a force power you gain a corruption point. To get purge yourself here is this hard as hell quest. Darkside points number X and BAM, you're evil.