Cyril said:

FANTASTIC! Thanks, this will work great until the real stuff is released.

-WJL,

There's feedback and then there's nitpicking. You feel as though you were doing the former, but it really came across as the later.

It's a two way street. You and JegerGryte asked why I made the choices i did instead of the ones you felt were more appropriate. I explained my rationale as to why I made those specific choices. If I'd agreed with the rationales presented, I would have said as much. Just as you have the right to disagree with what myself or any other fan has produced for this or any other game, we have the right to disagree and to stand by our work. And yet, the tone of your posts (and to a much lesser extent JegerGryte) came across very much as "no, you're doing it wrong."

JegerGryte at least had the decency to say "Okay, I may not entirely agree, but I can see where you're coming from and why you made the choices you did." And that's fair.

But as Cyril strongly suggested, it's time to put the nail in this particular coffin. We've presented our respective sides of the argument, and rather than have this turn into typical WotC forum thread, let's just conclude that we've got very different opinions on what Zabraks should be and leave it at that. And when FFG does their own take on the species, I doubt it'll look anything like what I thought they should be or what you think they should be.

Since this thread was started for fans to posting their own species write-ups, perhaps it really ought to go back to fans posting their own species write-ups.

Sorry for the derail Gallandro.

And on that note, I post my version of the Noghri.

Some pre-script might be in order first though. Initially I wanted to give them feral strength: to justify martial training and claws and fangs in one go. After the Menagerie version I went… "oh…" and then discussed a bit with Donovan. I had not really considered just giving them claws (and fangs), but I see now that it's a good idea, and perhaps not so overpowered as the talent would be. I'm still a bit divided on this issue though.

Furthermore I have just stolen the idea from Donovan and Cyril for adding a boost die to perception and surveillance, I apologise guys, but its a good idea. I have renamed it though, to better suit my own view of how it works. Furthermore I am toying with the idea of adding Vigilance to the list, but that would make them perhaps a bit too beardy… ?

I have also included the silhouette of 0, but for those who wants to play a large Noghri, like 1.6 metre tall, I would suggest keeping to silhouette 1.

I have thrown away the stealth/brawl rank, to keep balance.

Noghri

Brawn 2
Cunning 2
Presence 1
Agility 3
Intellect 2
Willpower 2

Species abilities:
Wound threshold: 11+Brawn
Strain threshold: 11+Brawn
Starting XP: 90
Special abilities:
Claws and Fangs: The Noghri have sharp claws and fangs. When dealing unarmed/brawling damage, they add +1 and has a Crit rating of 3.
Accute senses: The Noghri have a complex array of sensory organs. To this end Noghri add a boost die to surveillance and perception checks.
Size: Most Noghri have a silhouette of 0.

Here's my first attempt at the Miraluka.

I'm not sure about the characteristics, so input is appreciated. The abilities are chopped together from memory of other versions - I'm at a café supposed to do field work but there is nothing here - so feedback would be nice. I know the d20 versions - at least one of them - didn't make them force sensitive by default. I disagreed with that notion, because I have always seen them through the fiction as being force sensitive, and while for the d20 version giving them that feat might have been too powerful, a rating of 1 in this game does not inherently give them any training or powers.

Miraluka

Brawn 2
Cunning 2
Presence 2
Agility 1
Intellect 3
Willpower 2

Species abilities:
Wound threshold: 10+Brawn
Strain threshold: 10+Brawn
Starting XP: 90
Special abilities:
Force sight: Miraluka does not have eyes, instead they rely on perceiving the world through the force. This functions in most respects as normal vision, except in areas void of the force, like a Yalamiri buble or on a Vong starship – where the Miraluka will be considered blind. and other Other force sensitive beings, particularly trained ones, will appear clearer, stronger.
Natural force affinity: While not all Miraluka receive training, they are all so strongly connected to the force that they receive a Force rating of 1 at character creation. Additionally they can buy the Force Exile specialisation for 10 XP instead of the normal 20.

Jegergryte said:

Most of the Miraluka stats I'm good with, but the way this is worded, it could open up the door to Force Rating 2 heroes right at character creation. And Force Rating 1 by itself is fairly worthless, and not all Miraluka players are going to want to play Force-users.

Perhaps instead of getting an extra rank in their Force Rating, change it so that Miraluka just get the discount to buy into Force-Sensitive Exile (or any other Force-based specialization)? Or simpler still, they treat all Force-based Specilizations (of which I'm sure there will be more down the line) as career specs instead of non-career specs?

Since they do rely on the Force to see, perhaps they get to ignore setback dice caused from poor visilibity conditions, but this ability is lost in Force-null areas or Force--null subjects like the Vong?

I think between the Force Exile discount and reducing setback dice from poor visiblity conditions, that'd be worth setting them at 90 XP.

The way the force sensitive exile specialisation is worded, they cannot start with a force rating of 2. As the specialisation specifically states that the force rating granted through it, does not increase a force rating above 1 … its there, somewhere, I'm pretty sure I read it. Therefore I think the wording is ok, but I can have a second look for sure. I assume it is the force rating that lets one learn force powers, not the specialisation, but I could definitely be wrong on that.

Making all force talent trees into career specialisations at the moment isn't an issue, but I suspect with future supplements that could become a problem. As for now, there is only one force specialisation and no problem with that notion.

The force sight ability could ignore mist, darkness, and visiblity conditions that is not barriers and walls… makes it even better. Good idea. I think that they would be perfectly blind in ysalamiri bubbles and on vong ships, but I would add a setback or two for noticing ysalamiri - and perhaps vong, since they are "invisible" yet also voids in the force patterns/matrix/whatever… I think two for Vong and one for ysalamiri - that is to notice them in the vicinity, normal range band penalties for perception apply of course… ooh.. just realised, they cannot use any kind of binoculars?! (or can they?) perhaps they should have "some" reduction for range too? hm… anyways, the null-points and vong is not really going to be a huge issue … as the vong are not here yet (I think, there might be some scouts out and about I think… can't really remember all that much about the NJO series…), ysalamiri are only on wayland I think, which is hidden and controlled by the empire… anything else?

Jegergryte said:

I just checked the Week 3 update, and id does say that if you have a Force Rating 1 that you don't get to increase your Force Rating from buying the Force-Sensitive Exile spec, presumably to safeguard for easy Force Rating boosts by dropping and then re-buying F/S Exile, as well as a bit of future-proofing for when future Force Specializations are released.. And I'm pretty sure you just need a Force Rating of 1 or better in order to buy Force Powers.

Still, I think shoe-horning Miraluke into being Force-users isn't really the best way to go, as that Force Rating really doesn't do anything other than force a player to spend even more XP to buy Force Powers, and should a player want a Miraluka character that isn't a Force-user, they're being forced to pay valuable starting XP for something they're never going to use.

I think the tact that WotC took with the Miraluka stats in the KOTOR book worked best, where they got a boost to their Force prowess by way of a free Force Training feat if they were trained in Use the Force. But with the way FFG is handling Force Powers, that probably won't work.

Here's a thought. How about if the Miraluka character purchases a Force Specialization (again, future-proofing), they receive the Sense power for free? Since they'd still need to purchase the Force-Sensitive trait in the first place, that doesn't shoehorn a Miraluka PC into being a Force-user, but if they opt to take that option, they get a pretty decent perk. But if that were the case, I'd go ahead and give them a full 100 XP, since they don't have any inherent perks (extra starting talent, increased Wound or Strain Threshold) other than the Force vision.

Someone had requested Dug

Dug

Dugs were slender, powerfully built beings with a somewhat humanoid build and a unique method of walking that hailed from the high gravity world Malastare. Their primary means of locomotion were their strong arms, and their lower limbs and feet were used for grappling and other fine motor manipulation. They hardly ever walked on their lower limbs. Sebulba was only once seen standing on his legs. Although most Dugs may walk on all four limbs, others liked to use their strong arms as legs and their feet as hands like they would normally do.

Dugs had smooth skin, which hung loosely around their tall necks, only to inflate during mating season calls. They also possessed fin-like ears and pronounced snouts. They lived mainly in the forests of the western continent of their homeworld in primitive tree villages called "tree thorps". On their homeworld Malastare, the Dugs were arboreal beings. They brachiated among the canopies with alarming speed using all four limbs.

Brawn 3
Cunning 2
Presence 1
Agility 3
Intellect 1
Willpower 1

Species abilities:

Wound threshold: 10+Brawn
Strain threshold: 10+Brawn
Starting XP: 90

Special abilities:

Dugs begin the game with one rank in Brawl. They still may not train Brawl above rank two during character chreation

Ombidexterous: Dugs being the game with the Jump Up talent. Dugs add a boost die to combat checks when wielding two weapons.

Well… by way of forcing and shoehorning the Miraluka into being force user characters I'm not really sure I agree. Although I guess by decreasing starting xp to 90 they are paying xp for the force rating, force sight and of course cheaper specialisation… by removing the force rating and adding in sense for free, if they buy the force specialisation, we will get sense monsters.

So, basically, if the starting XP is increased to 100 and their natural force affinity changes to: The Force sensitive Exile specialisation (or any force specialisation for future reference) always counts as career specialisation, and can therefore be bought for 10XP. Additionally the Miraluka gain the sense power for free when buying into this specialisation.

Is that along the lines of your thinking?

I must admit I really want to let them have a force rating of 1, regardless - basically because I think the WotC way was silly. I see the notion, players not wanting to play force users, but like the race should be able to not play Jedi (or the like) … which is fine, but it is a force sensitive species, they rely on the force to perceive the world around them. And with the force rating system, you're not really gaining much - but access to powers - if your rating is 1 and you roll only 1 die. I think I would add a force rating of 1 to the above edit of force affinity.

Natural force affinity: While not all Miraluka receive training, they are all strongly connected to the force and are by default force sensitive and therefore receive a force rating of 1 at character creation. The Force sensitive Exile specialisation always counts as career specialisation, and can be bought for 10XP. Additionally the Miraluka gain the sense power for free when buying into this specialisation.

With that version of the special ability I guess the starting XP should be lowered again, although I'm not certain. It's good, but is it that good?

Jegergryte said:

No, it was meant to be one or the other. Certainly not both.

Speaking of Miraluka automatically having a Force Rating, they didn't even have that in the WEG version, which just gave them the Force-based sight and that was it. I honestly think your putting far too much emphasis on the "force-sensitive species" in relation to game mechanics. Their inherent "force sensitivity" is largely covered already by their Force Sight. And being Force-Sensitive covers a bit more in this game than it did in WEG.

Also, with the changes to purchasing Specializations that the Week 4 update introduced, here's what I think the "natural force affinity" should read:

Natural force affinity: While not all Miraluka receive training, they have a natural sensitivity to the Force. Miraluke receive a 10 XP discount on the cost of purchasing the Force-Sensitive Exile (or other Force-based) specialization.
Starting XP : 100

This way, if a Miraluka player wants to explore being a Force-user, they have an incentive to do so, namely it being a bit cheaper than it would be for other species. But if they don't, they're not docked a large chunk of XP for playing against type.

AFrede,

Regarding your Dug stats, since their canon representative, Sebulba, is shown to be no taller than a 9-year-old Human, I'm thinking that putting them a Silhouette 0 would be very fitting.

Also, I'd drop the Brawn down to 2 and raise their Intellect and Presence up to 2 as well. They're strong for their size, but nothing suggests they have a natural strength to match that of a Wookiee, and nothing suggests they're inherently stupid or have weak personalities. The low Willpower works to reflect that they tend to do what strikes their fancy and to heck with the consequences (i.e. poor impulse control).

I have a major problem with giving Dugs the Jump Up talent for free. All the other official species that got a free talent got one that could be purchased for 5 XP, where the cheapest cost for Jump Up is 10 XP under Assassin, where Fringer and Thief have it for 20 XP. It's also not a Ranked talent which given that if you already have a non-ranked talent and it's on your specialization's talent tree, you count as having already bought that talent for purposes to connecting to other talents.

Might I suggest the following as an alternative?

Ombidexterous : Dugs receive a free boost die to Coordination checks and to combat checks when wielding two weapons.

Thank you for the document of Species, very awesome of you. Great work,, you didn't have to do it. Now, put all bickering aside or I'll toss all of you in a Force nullified field pit with a Rancor. He's hungry. … By the way, anybody stat up the Rancor yet, I need one for a pit apparently.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Doh, totally forgot to add the silhouette in there. I guess that is what i get for putting something together past my bed time haha. Ya i was wondering what people would say about the 3,3,2,1,1,1 idea, was just trying to spice the species up a bit and see how it would work to have some different numbers showing but I will agree that making them equivalent strength of a Wookiee was perhaps not my best idea. I guess I will have to pick a better species to do that with.

I am cool with the coordination idea rather than jump up. I just saw the talent and thought it would fit perfectly with them so it was included without really taking a look at how expensive that talent was or other considerations. Thanks for the input.

Dug 2.0

Dugs were slender, powerfully built beings with a somewhat humanoid build and a unique method of walking that hailed from the high gravity world Malastare. Their primary means of locomotion were their strong arms, and their lower limbs and feet were used for grappling and other fine motor manipulation. They hardly ever walked on their lower limbs. Sebulba was only once seen standing on his legs. Although most Dugs may walk on all four limbs, others liked to use their strong arms as legs and their feet as hands like they would normally do.

Dugs had smooth skin, which hung loosely around their tall necks, only to inflate during mating season calls. They also possessed fin-like ears and pronounced snouts. They lived mainly in the forests of the western continent of their homeworld in primitive tree villages called "tree thorps". On their homeworld Malastare, the Dugs were arboreal beings. They brachiated among the canopies with alarming speed using all four limbs.

Brawn 2
Cunning 2
Presence 2
Agility 3
Intellect 2
Willpower 1

Species abilities:

Wound threshold: 10+Brawn
Strain threshold: 10+Brawn
Starting XP: 90

Special abilities:

Dugs begin the game with one rank in Brawl. They still may not train Brawl above rank two during character creation

Ombidexterous : Dugs add a boost die to all Coordination skill checks; and to combat checks when wielding two weapons.

Silhouette : Dugs have a silhouette of 0

AFrede said:

Looks pretty sweet. If and when there's a second species guide, I'll keep this write-up of Dugs in mind if you're okay with that.

Rather than have the Dugs willpower be 1, perhaps it should be their presence. They were pretty belligerent, refused to learn another language, and all around not cool to hang around with.

That Blasted Samophlange said:

I read Presence as being more than how charming or good-looking a character is, and rather their force of personality, with a 1 being rather meek (such as the Gand) while a 3 is a much more outgoing and noted presence (such as a Twi'lek or our average Hutt). Dugs may generally be assholes, but meek they certainly aren't.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Ah, I see. My bad.

You might be right about the force sensitive thing, although could you specify what you mean by "covering" more? I guess you mean talents/specialisations in addition to powers, but I'm unsure.

Could a tweak of your XP discount, still be worded as "career specialisation" ? I mean, I haven't done the math, but I'm unsure which one is the "best". If its the second specialistaion it doesn't matter I assume, but if its the third or above I think it would.

So a revised version could look like this:

Miraluka

Brawn 2
Cunning 2
Presence 2
Agility 1
Intellect 3
Willpower 2

Species abilities:
Wound threshold: 10+Brawn
Strain threshold: 10+Brawn
Starting XP: 100 (or 90 considering the force sight bonus plus access access at decreased xp to spec?)
Special abilities:
Force sight: Miraluka do not have eyes, instead they rely on perceiving the world through the force. This functions in most respects as normal vision, except in areas void of the force, like a Yalamiri bubble or on a Yuuzhan Vong starship (and within buildings) – where the Miraluka will be considered blind. Since they do rely on the Force to see, normal visual impairments like smoke, fog and darkness to not apply - removes any setbacks dice from such environmental effect. They still cannot see through barriers like doors and walls. Add 2 (or 3?) setback dice to notice Ysalamiri bubbles, Yuuzhan Vong and the like in a normal force induced environment. Other force sensitive beings, particularly trained ones, will appear clearer, stronger.

Natural force affinity: While not all Miraluka receive training, they have a natural sensitivity to the Force. Miraluka therefore consider the Force-sensitive Exile specialisation (or other Force-based specialisations) as career specialisation(s). (As per the Week 4 update).

Amanin
Species Abilities
Wound Threshold 13 + Brawn
Strain Threshold 10 + Brawn
Starting XP 90

Special Abilities
Redundant Organs
Because of their redundant systems and organs, Amani gain -10 to all Crit rolls made against them.
Roll
While tucked into their species "roll" position, the Amani may travel two range increments with the expenditure of 1 maneuver. The Amani must spend one maneuver to enter the "roll" position but emerging from this position is an Incidental activity.

Characteristic Ratings
Brawn 3
Presence 2
Intellect 1
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Originally from Maridun, the arboreal Amanin hail from a tribal culture. Their customs are based on stories passed through generations by Lorekeepers.
Amanin are tall, standing 2 to 3 meters with muscular hoods that flare out from their ribbed necks. The typical colors for Amanin are yellows and greens, often with unique mottled patterns where their green hoods meet their yellow belies. Though lithely built, the Amanin are strong, with elongated arms offering them superior leverage with most handheld weapons or tools. Likewise, their gargantuan hands make grappling with them an unwise proposition. Their legs are much smaller than the standard humanoid. The hoods run down their backs, tapering to a small tail.
Amanin are curious but tend to be shy in crowds outside of their own tribes. The race has proliferated the galaxy and found purchase among many cultures and worlds throughout the Outer Rim. On some Mid-Rim factory worlds, the Amanin are used for physical labor, often as slaves under the Empire.

LethalDose said:

My only issue with this analysis is that I think that a pre-selected skill is worth much less than a floating one.

If I am a Wookie and get a rank of Brawl for free, but I am not planning on using brawling much, that skill is not very useful for me. The human, however, gets to choose his two skills, which allow him to be a number of different character types, and to supplement his careers.

For example: I have a character who wants to be a Technician who is also good with a vibro blade; now, if I go Wookie then I only get the brawling skill, but if I go human I could grab Melee. The choice of Wookie here is fairly irrelevant, and only chosen to make the point, that being that the human has a big boost, in that he can choose what skill is best for him and take it, rather than having to find a race that gives it to him. Note that just spending the xp is also superior, as it allows you to choose what skill you want (If you are pricing them as the first rank of a non-career skill, then if I were to just get the experience I could get 2 career skills for that same price.).

Now talents are a bit different, because, if you aren't in the right specialization you can't get them at all. So if a talent is one you couldn't normally get, that talent really costs at least 15 (career specialization) but possibly 25 (non-career specialization) points. This makes the free talent varying in xp cost, depending on what specs you have. However, a talent that is chosen for you is still less effective than a talent that you can just choose, if you could just choose any 5 point talent in the game, that would be crazy useful for getting talents that you would otherwise not get, as you could essentially be saving 25 points worth.

3WhiteFox3 said:

This is a prime example why relying solely upon math to determine "game balance" is a bad idea. Creating a species really is more of an art form than anything else, as even the best attempts to "codify" building a new race or species are going to be prone to abuse if reliant solely upon creating a zero-sum balance. I certainly had to eyeball a lot of stuff when writing a number of the new species found in Galaxy at War and Unknown Regions for Saga Edition. Some I got right (Squibs seem to have been very well received, particularly by the Squib fanbase), some were a bit off (Yuzzem being one of the more prominent offenders if WotC forum posts were any indication), and I'm sure the other Saga Edition developers did likewise for their species write-ups.

Donovan Morningfire said:

While I agree that math alone cannot create a system that is perfectly balanced without sacrificing appeal to the majority of gamers (perfect balance isn't possible in my opinion). However, I do believe that math can be used as a guideline, a good quote that I read somewhere is that no RPG survives contact with the players. The players will ALWAYS see things that the developers never foresaw. But, that doesn't mean that trying to find a way of defining a balanced race is bad, in fact it should be done so that we can have an idea of how to best build races. I just want to help by pointing out that there were places where the formula could be improved. It should also be noted that I have a decently long history with optimization, and that balance, (including mathematical balance) can happen, as long as you only expect reasonable balance.

Reasonable balance being something that allows players to choose different characters that all can have fairly equal impact on play. No one option should completely over shadow another. However, all options are not created equal. For example, Wookies make far better unarmed combatants than a Twi'lek will, and for that reason few people will make a Twi'lek brawler. (This makes story sense as well, since very few Twi'leks will be willing to work past their natural weaknesses. While, on the other hand, Wookies have brawling as a central part in their culture.) I believe that this is an acceptable break from balance, but does not mean that balance is unnecessary or unattainable.

Donovan Morningfire said:

So you accuse my thanks of being petty, condescending, and a back-handed insult. You do it in private, while posting a more upstanding public message. And then you back-handedly say I'm the one who lacks decency…

I guess I should appreciate that this time you showed me the "decency" of doing it in public.

I can't speak for JegerGryte, but I think its safe to assume at least one of the reasons he's more willing to find common ground with you and "agree to disagree" than I am is because he never received a "go **** yourself" PM from you for saying "thanks".

As far as posting my write-ups here, why would I? The write-up I posted before this happened received no feed-back. And all I got after disagreeing with you and explaining why was your bile. Being specific and citing evidence is not nit-picking. I've spent the last few years TA'ing biostatistics courses; I have to show grad students where they went wrong, which requires an eye to detail and the willingness to walk them through the process step-by-step. I use this logic anywhere I'm trying to explain something, but I guess you found this offensive when I applied the approach here.

For the record, though, I agree with 3WhiteFox3 that perfect balance simply isn't possible. Numerical analysis shouldn't be applied until after flavor is established, but then can be very useful for tweaking the product. As a GM, I have CharOp monsters at my table. The best way I've found throttle their shenanigans is to make sure the rules I allow into the game are as well balanced as possible so I can concentrate on the narrative.

Anyway, its explicitly and implicitly clear you're aren't interested in what I have to say in this thread. So I'll just shut the **** up now.

-WJL

Donovan Morningfire said:

The way to do this with the FFG rules is that they get an upgrade on any Discipline checks made to activate force powers. Not sure how balanced that is, but it's the same idea as the WotC "free force training" in FFGs system.

gribble said:

That's a solid idea, and has the added benefit of being easy to implement as well.

Snivvians

Species Abilities
Wound Threshold 10 + Brawn
Strain Threshold 11 + Brawn
Starting XP 100

Special Abilities
Thick Hide
Millennia of evolution in the harsh environment of their home world has selected a thick, toughened skin for Snivvians. This thick skin grants protection from extremes of temperature, removing one setback die from dice pools that are negatively affected by temperature extremes.

Inured to Hardship (Graduate from the School of Hard Knocks (or The University of Adversity))
Snivvians begin play with a free rank in a Knowledge skill of their choice to reflect the learning from the hardships that have plagued their race and their ability to process and utilize these lessons learned. This specific Knowledge skill is still limited to two ranks at the time of character creation.

Characteristic Ratings
Brawn 2
Presence 2
Intellect 2
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Snivvians originate from the planet Cadomai Prime, an inhospitably cold winters. The Snivvians spent millennia of these seasons developing their craft and canon of artistic expression, often influenced by their strong beliefs in the Blood Code. The Blood Code, a genetic protocol that many Snivvian civilizations have adopted over their history, has alternately protected and destroyed Snivvian cultures.

Snivvians are a hardy species, with thick, porous hide and sparse hair covering the tops of their heads. Their height is near the standard range of humans and they have spread across the galaxy with a wide range of occupations and affiliations.