Dulahan said:

And when you design the next iteration of Star Wars RPG, you're very welcome to do it in the "correct" order. I, for one, have never been particular fond of Jedi (as more than backdrop mythology) and I'm quite happy that the "rest" of the setting (as in, everyone who isn't that one jedi who's still around) get some attention for a change.

I'm not getting into why I like Star Wars but don't particular care about Jedi, because you've already established that you don't believe that's possible. Just suffice it to say: Not everyone are you.

While the Force or Jedi/sith (or any other force tradition) is what in some ways sets the Star Wars universe apart from the rest of the sci-fi settings, they also all have their mystics … good and evil (or just shades of grey )…

What, to me, sets the Star Wars universe apart, is its internal good/evil axis. Its species', the starships, its fantasy more than sci-fi elements, tech is cool and important, but technobabble is kept to a minimum. Its action, its drama, its quirky scoundrels, menacing bounty hunters, honour, lack of honour, noble soldiers, tough nobles… this you will find other places sure, but the Star Wars versions are cooler in my opinion… simply because its Star Wars, a Stardestroyer is cooler than the Enterprise or Klingon Warbird, simply because its industrial looking and grey… same with any other star wars ship compared to most other sci-fi universes/settings (not all though mind you).

Yes, you have Jedi/Sith/Jensaarai/whatnot too, and they are bloody cool, I love them, but they are only a part of what defines the star wars universe to me. Together with the above and more.

Now I prefer the non-jedi books, not because jedi sucks, but because the others are better written than the jedi books. This is also why I prefer non-jedi or non-force user characters, they're easily more complex and interesting, because they are not identified by their ability to use the force, which happens too often in games, the books, even the film… those that are called "prequels" are also a victim to this tendency.

To Dulahan: The force is not unique, most other sci-fi/space opera/sci-fantasy universes have similar mystics… if its magic, techno-wizards, dune spice making you go mental, psychics, telepaths… they exist in any universe, the force is just another incarnation of the super power ingredient; the magic powers of some elite few…

The way you boil down evil empires trivialise Darth Vader's (at least previously) iconic status as a villain… and he was not a villain because of the force, but because he looked evil and behaved evil… his "sorcerous" ways were just an addition, it did not define him, not until the "prequels".

Similarly the force can be boiled down into the deus ex machina of George Lucas, Troy Denning, Tolkien, Joss Whedon, Robert Jordan, G. R. R. Martin and any other author/universe creator giving his protagonists some special abilities setting them apart and making them special. The Force is not unique or different, the Jedi might seem like a defining aspect of the Star Wars universe, but I would hardly say its what makes the Star Wars universe different from all others. Because its simply not true.

Star Wars is different because its Star Wars. The droids are more unique actually, setting them apart from most other series that include automatons, they are rarely included in that way, as so strong protagonists as R2 and 3PO are.

I hope that "force and destiny" gives its due to Force users in the new star wars RPG. On the other hand, I understand the current approach to the no-Jedi presence in the first book. Naturally, common people are more prevalent than Jedi or Sith, or other force traditions in any era, even more in the rebellion era. in the galaxy there were 10 000 Jedi before trillions of ordinary beings. With that in mind, I can wait for a book where the force will be well portrayed, whilst a more "normal" approach is developed. In that way, it will be epic when true Jedi and other force users appear.

Heck, you know what? I'm actually going to grant you the Droids thing. While there are certainly analogs in other Sci Fi settings, none of them quite reach the level of droids on Star Wars that I can think of.

You missed my point on why the Force is different from all the other settings though. Yes Psionics and even Magic have shown up in a myriad of other Sci Fi settings. But the point is the duality element of Star Wars' handling of it, I can't even think of other settings with a Light and Dark side handled anywhere close to how SW does it. The redemption, the hero's journey, etc. Star Wars was never Shades of Grey in that regards, even if Luke can probably be argued to have toed the line for a bit.

In a complete other subject to get information. Just how… extensive is the Force Exile stuff? I know it's there, but until my book gets here I have little knowledge of how much it does. What sorts of feats can you accomplish? How much is focusing on it going to help you or hurt you in other regards?

Well, it depends on what version of the universe of Star Wars you exclude and/or include into the mix. There is enough flirting with the grey in many EU sources. So how the force is handled in Star Wars is up to debate, especially with new EU material, like for example the Dawn of the Jedi, the horrible Fate of the Jedi notions and Abeloth and all that. You could even argue that the whole balance thing makes it more about grey than light/dark…

But to stay with that notion, the evil empire of the Star Wars universe is also quite different from other evil empires, even though you can boil it down the Emperor Ming and Flash Gordon if you want to… its still different, with its own twists that makes it unique, and a defining aspect of the Star Wars universe, but also a representation of your own points about the force as a unique aspect, the evil empire serves to solidify this, exemplify it so to speak, without the empire, how would the dark side even be present? The force argument you run, is based upon the existence of the empire of the old trilogy. Which brings me to my point, that Star Wars is unique because its Star Wars, not one aspect of it alone can define it so much as the composition of all the parts.

As for you questions concerning the book, well, you will probably receive before me… but I do wonder myself on those things. Although from this thread it seems that to focus on that tree you will have to spend xp, which basically means you will have more stuff to spend xp on, so more choice… with the price that comes with it.

Well, for argument's sake, we may as well ignore the EU and even the Prequel Trilogies at this point, because this core book is pretty obviously, if not outright stated to be essentially based on ANH. Which is almost a bit sad on it's own, I will admit my big hope for the game was to finally get a good system that could handle anything from KOTOR to Clone Wars to Return of the Jedi to Legacy Era stuff just as easily. For now we know of only the Empire era.

Though this is hardly saying we won't get some sourcebooks, in fact they'd probably be great ones. Though I'd wager any of the eras with a lot of the Force in them probably won't land until after the Jedi book for rather obvious reasons. Though I hope I'm wrong!

Dulahan said:

The Force Exile specialty gives you a sort of 'theme" for your character as a Force user in hiding. It doesn't really give you actual Force powers but it can be used to increase your Force Rating (in the way other specialties can be used to raise your "normal" characteristics") and give you talents for getting by in life the way other specialties give you appropriate career based talents.

However, there are also three Force power talent trees that give you actual "powers." In fact, each tree is a single power that is enhanced and customized with each new talent obtained. In this book you really only have Sense (which can be modified to sense better in certain situations or to do special "tricks" with it), Influence (which includes the classic "Jedi Mind Trick" and can be modified in all sorts of fun ways), and Move (which is used to move objects and can be modified to do all sorts of detailed things).

I haven't read up on how you obtain talents off these power trees, but I think it is a very interesting approach to really flesh out each and every power with its own tree. It makes me excited for the kind of treatment a full selection of Force powers might get. Talk about the detail you'll get to inject!!!

Oh, to answer your question on how much focusing on it will hurt or help you, well, the Force Exile specialty is a specialty just like any other. If you take it, you're obviously sacrificing the equal resources it would take you to pick up another. So it is balanced (you pay for it and get talents just like everyone else), but it does divert you from your core career specialties. As for the power talent trees, I'm not 100% how you get those, so I can't answer that just yet.

Dulahan said:

To be fair (and let me qualify this by saying I don't buy into this statement 100%, thought I do see the perspective), the fans of the original trilogy (the ones that specifically dislike anything beyond the original three movies) have been excessively neglected in the past several iterations of the Star Wars RPG as each iteration has been a clearing house for the latest marketing fad in the EU. A Jedi/Force centric approach has been focus of much of that era and, well, a non-Force, OT focus will be giving them their due for a while.

Now, I tend to be much more of the approach that a Star Wars RPG can work when the kitchen sink is tossed in, but, as I've said before, there's a LOT of the setting to cover. It's difficult to include everything from countless video games, novels, comics, movies, and cartoons (each with different styles and flavors) and get it all to work together in an RPG that has to have one system of rules that can only simulate one style and flavor.

If you accept one aspect of the EU and "important" your have to accept them ALL because fans out there will ask where it is.

I think the game will really benefit in the long run from their focus on one aspect at a time.

Reading this thread, I have to say: I firmly agree with the approach they are using. When all three books are out, we will be able to do everything, but if you really think about it…each book is kind of working along the movies. It started out with the A New Hope. Luke has SOME ability with the Force he eventually uses to bring down the Death Star, but, for the most part in ANH, he is a Farmboy who is tossed out into the galaxy..he is a Fringer. Han is a smuggler, Chewie is an Mechanic, and Leia is a Colonist. As we move into Empire Strikes Back, we see the Rebellion and Imperial Military more, and the second book is supposed to be about that. Return of the Jedi matches with the Jedi and Destiny book, where, at the end, Luke the Farmboy is truly the Last and First Jedi.

This is GOOD. Of course, I look forward to the supplemental books.

sakieh said:

In short, FFG decided the proper order to watch the movies starts with Episode IV, A New Hope and created the RPG to match. I personally, love that decision.

I find the 3 books approach, absolutely awesome for a few reasons.

Player character power level (balance). No matter how you slice it, a bounty hunter is not a soldier, is not a jedi. In saying that, each book allows a group to meet and game, in a genre that suits them, and have all the players fairly balanced. So when the soldier book comes out, and they are more powerful then bounty hunters, they can say: to play a bounty hunter make it start at level 5 to balance it with a first level soldier. Or make said bounty hunter level 10 to balance it with a level 1 jedi.

I have been running SW rpgs for a few decades now, and one thing I consistently find is that player character jedis tend to annoy the ever living crap out of all the non-jedi player characters. Separating them is wise.

Making players learn the game prior to becoming god-like is also something I admire. As a GM, I am much more apt to allow a jedi character from one that has "payed his dues", so to speak. One who understands the implications of said jedi on other party members and hopefully creates a mentality of just because you can do something, and do it better, doesn't mean that you should do it.

I am really curious to see how the Jedi book is going to turn out. I mean, sticking with canon, the number of jedi would be exceptionally low, almost non-existantly so. How are they going to limit them, in this era? How are they going to explain groups of them, banding together and going unnoticed? Why isn't Vader putting an end to them, as he did every other jedi? Is it just a matter of time? Are they going to concentrate more-so on "off jedi", like the witches, where they have force powers, but they are not jedi? I want to know how they are going to keep this game "canon" with episodes 4-6, without turning it into The Clone Wars, or Old Republic.

As a GM, I wont allow but one jedi in any campaign in this era, and one would be hard pressed to call that person a jedi (rarely do they have training), in fact the majority of the campaign revolves around that person becoming a jedi, adventuring for halocrons, locating the materials (and training) in constructing a lightsaber, etc.. All of my players have to agree on the jedi being included, because it changes to core dynamic of the setting for them. Instead of random adventuring, it really kinda centers on the force.

I do however, mix species that should have been around. Like I use gungans alot (hated binks, but love the species). I don't use ewoks or norghi unless it is a time period that they have been discovered.

Anyway, that's my .02 (more like .10),

$hamrock

Canon is pretty broad. Remember that RotS established that Yoda and Obi-wan managed to warn some Jedi who weren't in the middle of battles. and EU has plenty of hidden Jedi during this time period. Plus Holocrons that can straight up teach people how to be Jedi.

two things, FIrst off there is no indication yet that each book is going to be a diffrent power level for all we know they will match up just fine, it may all simply be the focus of the setting. (I really cant see generic rebel trooper, most of whom where not millitary till recently being that much better than a bounty hunter or smuggler at there jobs, infact the rebellion was largely formed from such people looking for a way to fight back against the empire)

Also remember its a very big galaxy, hundreds of not thousands of inhabited planets many with populations equal or greater than the earths, so where do you hide a handful of force users perhaps in the trillions of beings, they will also probebly use the excuse that the formation of the rebellion draws out those with jedi training who have been in hideing.

InkSplat: What I am referring to as canon is what Lucas films, and by extension George (who ultimately dictate the setting), refer to as canon. Very little of the EU is "official" in their eyes, and often they speak directly against it. For instance, McGuire never liked anything having to do with Leia becoming a jedi. I, myself, like some of the EU, but it is vast and I can't guarantee all my players are familiar with it, so I tend to stick with more broad canon, thus the movies and a few of the novels.

Librarian: I use the term of separating the power levels, more as an educated guess. I have no clue that it is the plan, however, in other games of theirs that is what they have done. (DH, RT, and Death Watch, are all vastly different power levels for the characters, with rules for intertwining them). Why would this game be any different?

In my experience, I have yet to play/run a star wars rpg game where there wasn't a power level issue, and I have played all of them. By definition there would have to be, otherwise why are jedi so few, and unique. If you dumbed them down to normal status, people wouldn't want to play them.

A bounty hunter is built for small group combat, and often 1 on 1. That is what they specialize in. A soldier is built for war, ongoing, mass scale combat. Just the training alone should have a soldier being better in combat then a BH, not to mention the gear like heavy weaponry, vehicles, etc… While the BH is learning tracking, city survival, and underworld dealings, the soldier is learning war.
I love Boba Fett as much as the next guy, but he couldn't take Rex without getting "the drop" on him. The drop mentioned, isn't something one can learn, it is simply an ambush or sucker punch. There is a reason why Cade Bane ran when he had to square off against Rex. BHs sometimes win and do take out the soldiers, but it isn't in upfront combat.

That said, Jedi would represent an even greater power level. Again, I have no clue what the plan is, but if I were a gambling man…

Ok, I use the halocrons for my jedi. I recognize them as all others do, I just make my jedi hunt for them. I guess my jedi are closer to high level padawans. It balances them better, and I get hundreds of adventure ideas just based off the padawan looking for cubes/ sabers. I know there are a "few" other jedi out there, but there is a reason they are in hiding. When they come out and start making a name for themselves, said reason, shouldn't be far behind. Of course all of this is ONLY for this time period, post-purge. Clone Wars/Old Republic times, I have jedi out of my ears.

Librarian said:

For what it is worth, I spoke to a guy at GenCon who sat in on the announcement press conference and he told me that the Jedi book was expected to assume campaigns with an increased power level. Well, to be more accurate, they said (according to this gentleman) that the Jedi would be treated with an appropriate power level and that players will just have to be happy with the difference in power levels if they wish to mix true Jedi with "normals."

I'm comfortable with that idea. Jedi need to be more powerful than other heroes. Because…well…in the movies they simply were. If someone wants to play a Jedi players either need to be mature about having a diverse power range at the table, or have everyone play Jedi.

Inksplat said:

According to other canon sources, though, those Jedi that were warned were later hunted down by Vader during the intervening 20 years between E III and E IV.

And Lucas does not consider anything outside the 6 movies (and radio dramas) to be canon. He has stated this explicitly. Not saying that we as fans need to discount other canonical sources. I'm just saying that if it doesn't appear in the movies, it is in real danger of being contradicted by something that Lucas considers "his."

I could go on at legnth about how much Lucas' opinions will effect my game. Unfortunatly that would violate the profanity guidelines.

Suffice it to say that my games will use the elements of canon that me and the players enjoy and the elements of the EU which we consider intresting.

cetiken said:

Which is as it should be! In my games I just maintain a logic about it. I have no problem with a group of jedi getting together to adventure, but if they are blatant about it, or there are witnesses (would be hard to control with good jedi who couldn't just kill them), or they are in danger of disrupting the rule of two (sith), well I tend to have Vader showing up pretty quick like. Why? Because he killed everyone. Heck, even Yoda hid from him. That alone says alot.

Star Wars without the Jedi is NOT Star Trek. It is Rogue Squadron/Wraith Squadron. It is Han Solo in the Corporate Sector. It is Lando Calrissian and his latest get rich schemes. It is bounty hunters and criminal underworld. It is the everyday soldiers that make up the heart and core of the Rebellion. Remember that Luke did not overthrow the Empire. The bravery of the pilots who fought the battle over Endow did. Just because the Sith were eliminated (Vader killing the Emperor), it still took the rest of the Rebellion to overthrow the might of the Moffs and Grand Moffs and Warlords.

While Jedi/Sith battle has formed the major backdrop of most of the Galactic Wars over the history, it is still the everyday heros that are covered in the first two books that really make many of the most interesting stories. Even if you only go by the movies, the Jedi/Sith were powerful and their story was important, it was everyone else that was caught up in their feud who made the universe come alive and made it the world I fell in love with from the beginning (and yes, I saw the first movie the summer it came out in theaters)

I love the Jedi and all that their trappings, but I do not want to run a game of all Jedi, or where the Jedi is more powerful than the rest. While you may not want to run a game without Jedi/Sith struggle, these characters are not central to every Star Wars game and story.

cetiken said:

And I don't argue that at all. You should make it your own. The good news is that this system is shaping up to be extremely flexible and responsive to user designed material. If something new is released that contradicts previous aspects (or at least fills in gaps that were previously open) you will be able to mod it in very swiftly.

I cannot descibe how much it sucked in 40k knowing that I was going to have to wait years to get a game about the only thing I really care about there (Space Marines).

And then Black Industries turned up its toes and Died as soon as they put out Dark Heresy, which was about as far from what I wanted in a 40k roleplaying game as it is possible to get. The whole 40k RPG project could have ended there with no Space Marines! So I would suggest telling people to wait ages for their favourite thing is silly in an industry where lines disappearing with remarkable suddenness is all to common.

And then when FFG took over the line and FINALLY the Marine roleplaying game turned up (after Rogue Trader, a game I also didn't give a monkeys about), having to make it work with a rules system intended for playing the retarded losers of WFRP hamstrung it pretty badly. So after waiting all that time (YEARS! Whole gaming groups came and went in that time!) the product was pretty much gimped because the rules were not designed at the start to accommodate beings as awesome as Marines.

So all in all, I strongly urge people to… I dunno. Not to try and make people wait for their favourite thing just because They Have Got Theirs, and if the system isn't designed NOW to handle Jedi, it probably will never do them very well.

I say this as someone who is entirely happy playing Han Solo.

(I think I would strongly suggest that at the very least a downloadable proposed 'Quick Start' set of rules for playing Jedi are produced, for those as like that sort of thing - and quickly! )

In short, the 40krp model is probably pretty good for FFG - they get to put out a new core book every gencon!

It is worse than complete **** for the individual gamer if Your Favourite Thing ends up at the back of the release queue. And I suggest that Something Be Done to bring those two closer together.

You do know that many of the people who work hard to bring good 40k content also do some work on Star Wars or at least work closely with them. I'm betting that you'll get more sympathy not insulting their hard work. Not enough sympathy to get FFG to alter a plan long estabished and successful in the very system you insult.

If anyone needs to play a Jedi to get their fun on its not like they can't enjoy Saga or WEG editions.

AluminiumWolf said:

The people that matter quit listening to you the minute you started acting like this. You accomplish nothing with this voice.