For those of you that have the book in hand or know about this already.

How is using the Force handled? Is the system dynamic ? Ex: 'I use the force to boost my piloting skill, awareness, Lightsaber combat prowess etc.

Or is it a system of tiered powers?

I am hoping for answer number one.

trunkmonkee1971 said:

Isn't "answer number one" essentially boil down to "I can do anything a non-force user can do, but do it better"? Or at the very least, "I am good at all things, not just one or two specialized things"?

That doesn't sound like a game system I'd want to play or GM.

I highly doubt that it's the former. In the past, the biggest gripe that players had with both WEG SW d6 and SWRE d20 was that their application of the Force game their players too MUCH power (in some people's minds); FFG is probably looking to go the SAGA route, and make Force users more level with non-Force users.

That is, of course, until Force & Destiny comes out. I imagine that such a Force-specific rulebook will bring into option a variety of very potent powers, especially given the books focus on Jedi and other such traditions.

To answer your question about force users I have to talk about the game a bit.

Your "Class" opens up career skills which are. Cheaper to buy and a talent tree that you can spend experience to buy talents on the tree. They all relate to your career specialization. IE the bounty Hunter has a stalker ability that adds dice to outdoor checks related to following someone.

The force is another career specialization. You spend 10xp to gain access to it and that makes your force sensitive. It's just like another class that has new Yale talents that allow bonus to skills. The. It difference is those new talents are based on the force augmenting your skills instead of more skills. Uncanny reaction, uncanny senses, sense emotions.

Finally they also have three more force power trees that work just like talent trees but they have force powers. You spend exp to buy upgrades to move object, sense thoughts, sense danger, and mind trick. Those are the only 4 powers and all the upgrades just make them last longer or effect more people.

There are no lightsabers, no special skills, no extra bonus over another character class. You are a normal class that is force sensitive and figured out how to do some cool stuff but not anything like a Jedi. As far as balance you have to spend your exp to get it so it's all a wash. I spend http get sense danger and uncanny reaction, ( for 10 exp) and the Bounty Hunter spends Those 10 to take grit and stalker. Both are talents.

This game sets out to be a very specific thing, a game about the outer rim of the Star Wars universe. I am really stoked that they are ignoring Jedi for this first run through. Jedi get so over played. I have GMd many SW games, d6, d20 original, and SAGA, and every time we played we would have four players and three Jedi or something about like that. I am sick of it. It's boring. There are only so many tropes that you can run with as a Jedi, only so many sides of the story you can investigate before you cover the most obvious and interesting. Force users are supposed to be rare, exceptional people.

Using the force to augment normal class archetypes is the best approach in my book.

Damocles346 said:

See I LOVE playing a Jedi so I'm a little sad that its not in there now BUT that means they get not one but two more Star wars books to flesh out whats good and bad about the RPG system and how the Force on a bigger scale should work. That gives them 2 more years to balance the force and make it fun in a new campaign book. I'll wait if it means its ganna be better.

Well, i'm a star wars fan, and a star wars without Jedi and Sith is not a Star wars; it becomes a Star treck.

I really hope that the force and destiny book really gives its worthy place to Jedi and Sith, i see appropiate give a special place to These force traditions (a game or book dedicated to them). Jedi and sith are essential elements in any star wars story. moreover, other force tradition also have to have their place into the star wars roleplaying game.

From the looks of it, the Force is still very much a part of the game - in so far as the experience becomes something akin to the Luke Skywalker path (non-Jedi gaining some small measure of power, using it to augment his current abilities, etc.); I imagine that the Force and Destiny book allows you to focus on Jedi to the degree that you could play a surviving member of the old Order, or someone whose primary reason for being was to advance in his Force powers and resurrect the Jedi, or safeguard their secrets.

I'm very happy with the arrangement. Granted, I wouldn't have been so enthused if ALL Force rules were saved until book 3, but as it stands now, I should have enough to wet my appetite until the Jedi book arrives.

Jedi adrian said:

I entirely disagree - the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian novels don't feature Jedi or Sith, and they cover a core part of the setting. Hell, even most of the Rogue Squadron and X-Wing novels don't feature the Force at all, and they're some of the best Star Wars novels out there.

Whilst the Force and Jedi/Sith are a big part of the setting, they're just one big part amongst a dozen other big parts.

Saying that it can't be Star Wars without Jedi/Sith featuring in it is like saying that you can't have a Star Trek game unless it features Enterprise/Voyager/DS9/The Borg/etc (delete as appropriate).

MILLANDSON said:

No, Jedi and Sith and the Force are what set Star Wars apart from the rest. Without them playing a big part, why should I bother? Plenty of other Sci Fi games do the same thing just as good, if not better. To me, they are the only reason to play Star Wars. If I want to do a Bounty Hunter or a Smuggler, I can do that in ANY OTHER sci fi game. In fact, why not Firefly/Serenity? It does it better if you ask me. So does Fading Suns.

And your metaphor is quite flawed, I'd argue missing Star Trek's point more than anything. A far more apt metaphor would be doing Star Trek without the Federation and Exploration and Starships (Though even that misses a bit, since the Romulan Empire boxed set manages something entirely different and very cool!). Even DS9 kept all of the above despite being a much more static location in general. The Force was FAR more a part of what made Star Wars unique than the Enterprise or the Borg or DS9 did Star Trek. Heck, I'll even admit as a huge Trekkie that I have a hard time finding much fun to RP with in Star Trek. Wars? Great with the Force. Without… I'd rather something else.

I'm still with Damocles on this one, i.e. there's a lot to be said for focusing on non-Jedi stuff for a while. At this point in the thread, however, a lot of other games have been mentioned, most of which I haven't played. It ends up bringing me back around to the mechanic of this one. The crappiest game in the world could still be cool if it were creative and well-run. That being said, I'm very interested in a great game-mechanic. Serenity's looked good in that it was simple. D20 is crunchy as cornflakes.

The narrative dice pool is the mechanic that interests me as a player who doesn't want anything subtracted from the role-playing (let it be fast!) I don't like the role-playing to be a sort of second, parallel track to combat and stuff. D20 skill challenges, for example, are a band-aid to a system that is designed for running combat, combat, combat. With a narrative dice pool, combat is an option I don't have to be scared of because it's not going to send my game session down the rabbit hole. At the same time, my whole session could have no combat at all and it won't have to be a disappointment because the players still get to push a lot of their characters' buttons. They'll still be using the game's most interesting and well-developed mechanics whether they'r fighting or doing goofy stuff that we read in novels but aren't sure how to handle in terms of rules.

Serenity's system (Weis' system… what's that called?) is simple so it won't interfere with storytelling, but this new system raises the stakes a bit. The dice pools won't interfere with storytelling, and they'll actually lend something to it that all the difficulty rating-based systems don't.

(anytime FFG wants to cut me a check, I'll happily spread these ravings across more forums, and if they can't cut a check I'll accept WFRP expansions)

I think some of the most interesting and defining qualities of Star Wars deal with non-Jedi/Sith. When I was a kid I didn't wan to be Luke or Yoda. I wanted to be Han. There were several books that were released for the D6 version of the game that came into being simply because the "fringe" element had turned out to be one of the most popular aspects of the setting. People wanted to play smugglers and bounty hunters.

In fact, I think the purpose and message of the Force has been sort of ruined by the massive influx of the number of Jedi that have been portrayed. They were once this mysterious and wondrous group of people. Now every character in every story, comic, cartoon, video game, and novel is a friggin' Jedi. Yet another person struggling with their anger and angst or their slip to the Dark Side. There's so much more to the Star Wars galaxy. It makes me happy that FFG has the stones to recognize that a focus on a non-Jedi campaign has just as much merit than Jedi-focused campaigns… and the Jedi will get their due.

GoblynByte said:

Well said, I couldn't agree more.

GoblynByte said:

Everyone on the playground argued about being Luke, and I just stood there with a happy smile on my face, knowing that Han Solo was better than they were.

But also, arguing that you can't play Star Wars because you can't play Jedi is like arguing that you can't play Star Trek without playing the Federation and stuff, which is stupid. But then again… you did try to make that argument so let me explain.

OPENING SCENE: A planet somewhere: A ship flies by. It's obviously a Klingon Warbird. It is firing rapidly behind as it dives for the planet's surface.

CUTAWAY to a Vulcan patrol cruiser also moving rapidly, firing all phasers forward.

Now at this point, I'm like, "Well this is obviously not Star Trek!!! Where the heck is the freaking Federation!!" Or actually, no, I'm not, I'm happily watching the opening of what is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS as a Star Trek movie.

You are arguing that Star Wars is defined by the force, but show a Star Destroyer on screen and people know that it is Star Wars. The force is just one of many unique elements that define the SW universe.

Simply the fact that we're even having this conversation proves that there is a huge variety in what Star Wars fans see as "essentially Star Wars" and suggests that FFG's approach to giving equal attention to each vision is a strong strategy that will, in the long run, make a wider range of people happy. Granted, the Jedi fans will have to wait a little longer than everyone else (if they're stubborn enough to think they can't have fun without Jedi), but in the least that can be looked at as getting many of the bugs worked out of the system before they add something as complicated as the Force which is an aspect that - on its own - has countless interpretations.

But keep in mind that for the first two decades of Star Wars the Force - at least at the power level of "true" Jedi - has less of a presence in the story than it does now. One only needs to look at how the Force was presented in the D6 edition to see that. It was seen as a far less powerful thing than it is in today's canon because we didn't see the super heroic feats of the new trilogy. Now, there's a contextual reason for that (and I'm not one to hate on one trilogy or the other). Jedi were just more powerful during the Clone Wars. But in the Rebellion era - the era that this game is specifically and purposfully portraying - the Jedi and their grand use of the Force is all but unheard of. Many fans take the phrase that Yoda uttered ("when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be) to be true and it isn't until the non-movie EU materials hit the market that Jedi were crammed into the era by people who agreed that Jedi were an integral identifier to the setting… a concept that more or less goes against the statements of the movies.

Now, while he said "last of the Jedi," that says nothing of people who can use the Force. So I think having a taste of it that exists in the secret corners of the galaxy is a good thing for this era of play. But letting full blown Jedi onto the battlefield during this time contradicts some views of canon. So who do you side with when making an RPG about Star Wars? Well, I suppose if you don't agree with the designer's choice you don't have to buy the game. I for one find the bold choices to be quite appropriate and I'm excited to see someone do what I would have done with the setting had I been able to design it.

Greedo is Good said:

It's called the Cortex system, though it wasn't called that until /after/ the Serenity books were out. I loved the system (I even helped playtest that one too), but it has its shortcomings (like every system).

As far as the Jedi argument goes, I've always been on the Han Solo band wagon. The fringers always seemed like much more interesting characters to me. : )

I could see whole movies set in the Star Wars universe that never even mention the word Jedi… but I shouldn't give Lucas any more ideas . : )

There's always a debate with Star Wars RPG designers: do you follow canon, or what some fans want? Canon says the Jedi were extinct during the Rebellion era. It was urging of the fans and EU authors that Jedi were ever present in that era. So do you go with what's fair or balanced or what is canon?

I should also note that - looking at the book rather than speculating based on press releases - it would be easy to create Luke Skywalker up to his first training with Yoda in Episode V using the rules presented in the Edge of the Empire Beta rules. I could also argue that you could create him all the way up through the end of Episode VI, but that would be sacrificing a few elements or fudging a bit of information of your own… which would be easy to do.

I disagree that Jedi and Sith are what defines Star Wars . This is an RPG set in the "classic" era of Star Wars. Consider the fact that the word "Sith" is not once used in the three original movies, and during this time, there are only the smallest handful of Jedi in the galaxy. West End Games' D6 system was very popular and sold well through most of its long run, and they largely ignored the Jedi and (especially) the Sith.

For many, many years, Luke Skywalker was the only official Jedi in the entire galaxy. Star Wars can do and does just fine without the Jedi or the Sith.

Yet I must ask again.

If the Force isn't an issue. What makes Star Wars unique? I'd argue the first movie of the OT while a good movie, no question at all, it's easily my favorite of the entire 6 episode series by leaps and bounds, is not a great gaming setting. Without the Force being there, without those bits about Jedi Knights to spur the imagination, there is little there to set it apart from any other sci fi setting.

And again, there is no argument at all about Han being a cool character. He WAS. He was a very well done character. But Han could exist in the vast majority of Sci Fi settings out there without even changing a thing. That's my point about it. Heck, I often sold Firefly to friends by saying it was "Han Solo: The TV Series" and all of them agreed, no, Mal isn't Han. But he essentially shares a lot of common points. Saying he is a key part of Star Wars is focusing on the smallest of minutiae, not the broad picture. And that seems to be the difference of our two schools of thought. Those of us who want the Force and Jedi are looking at the setting Top Down, and those are the things that make it for us. While the rest of you look from the bottom up because some of your favorite bits weren't Force Users, but cool characters.

And again, I have to say, Star Trek is hard to define and I don't believe is a very great gaming setting in general to any but the most hardcore fans. And it's hard to pick the real elements that define it. The Federation? The Enterprise? If anything I'd say the top down is probably "To see out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before!" Though again, there's nothing about that which can't be done in virtually any other Sci Fi setting either. There's nothing about 'trek' that sets it apart broadly speaking like the Force does Star Wars. The Force is what makes Wars unique. I defy you to pick out something that is really unique and doesn't involve the force. Because it doesn't exist.

Evil Empires? Cliche #1

Myriad Races? Cliche #2

Gangsters, Smugglers, Scum, and Villainy? Please…

Monoclimate worlds? Now it's getting stupid.

Sure there are unique races, but again, meh. That's not a huge part. Especially when the show is fundamentally about Humans despite it all. and most of the races represent an archetype that can be found. Cool, well written characters are part of what makes it a great movie. But they aren't what sets it apart. It's the mystical interaction of the Force and the Dark Side which adds the dualistic element that sets the setting apart.

If you look at where Lucas is trendy, it's trendy away from Jedi - the new 1313 video game (no Jedi) and the already written but waiting for cheaper production costs Star Wars: Underworld TV show (no Jedi). I think Lucas is wanting to focus on the "underworld" a bit more. I think this first book is even set in the same time as the hopefully-one-day-it'll-be-on TV show and focuses on the same type of characters/elements of the setting.

Personally, I enjoy playing Jedi, but it really depends on the game and the goals of the players. I've played games with no Jedi and games with all Jedi/Sith. Both were equally fun and exciting.

I don't think it's trending away from Jedi necessarily. Rather, it's trending away from the PT to the OT.

Dulahan said:

You obviously feel Jedi are vital. Not everyone agrees. But, as I said, the Jedi will get there due. You'll just have to wait longer. You will be angry about this. Others will not. The scope is just too big to keep everyone happy. Previous editions have PROVEN this.

For example, in order to keep the balance between full Jedi and "normal" characters in Saga, they made a lightsaber do less damage than a blaster pistol. One of my Jedi players called it his "flashlight." They had to completely nerf the coolest weapon on the game to make it fit. Do you really want THAT again?

GoblynByte said:

Well, to be fair I skipped Saga because I hate d20 a LOT. I played it, hated it. The way things were treated was… secondary to hating the mechanic in general.

My issue is I'd rather have seen them start with the iconic element and work their way down. START with Jedi. The Top Down approach, like Exalted does. It's a lot easier to downplay things if you want a different sort of campaign than it is to upgrade them to do Jedi.

Jedi adrian said:

I don't remember Spock ever warning Sulu about using decentigration rays… Perhaps I am just remembering it wrong.

Actually to be fair, I totally see your point. I am just not upset because I always WANTED to play Han Solo and Boba Fett. If they started with only Force classes, I would probably not have been very excited at all.