spotter is insanely good, it allows you to make stuff with a BS roll nobody else has. delay -> wait for opponent to dodge -> spotter + standard attack -> +40 BS (without range or red-dot) giving you big chance to score 3D10+4 dmg, while your buddys run around with 1D10 + 2 weapons.

you can also shoot then stealth with the spotter bonus of +40, or make +40 called shots every round with deadeye shot and a targeter or the sharpshooter talent (for 300exp?). Honestly I as long as you are fighting orcs (which we are) I woudn't even bother getting the anti-dodge skill.

and like I said earlier in this thread: with the standard chameleoline cloak I make stealth rolls with +20 cloak +10 size. now that I got stealth to +20 I am basically invisible. and if the opponent should ever notice me (which he won't due to the sound supressor), he gets a whooping -10 prone -10 size -30 cloak = -50 BS to hit me. If he runs towards me, he is as good as dead.

It's quite amusing how a game still in development already has such diehard apologists.

Fresnel said:

Ah, sweet, sweet ad hominem, winning arguments since 1843.

I'm just operating off an "If it isn't broken, don't fix it" view. With only a single line of modification (good lasgun, flamer, long-las, shotgun, sniper, or regimental favorite basic for a weapon specialist), the game could support what you want.

If it really bothers you that much, just remove the Ratling traits, and reverse engineer a normal "sniper" from the ratling class. Drop the social aptitude, turn the characteristics bonus into a simple +5 Per, drop trade(cook) and deceive, drop the size trait. Get Awareness and Stealth. Boost the starting wounds to 8+1d5.

Oh look, that wasn't so bad.

Fresnel said:

Since you're not directly refering to anyone I'm assuming you are talking about KommissarK.
I'm not sure why you'd call him an apologist, all he did was look at the differences between the Ratling and the Weapon Specialist and evaluate them how they would fit the theme of Sniper and / or Spotter. If you find any flaws in his reasoning please do tell because from what I've seen its all well and good. The Ratling is obviously a different type of Sniper than the Weapon Specialist but both are still capable of perform well as Snipers.

The only thing I'd disagree with him on would be the advantage of the Comrade advances, while Hail of Fire is pretty good so is Spotter and I think the latter trumps the former by a bit (whereas the other two advances are about equal).

tl;dr KomissarK has it right. Weapon Specialists can be Sniper even though they are different from Ratlings.

Fresnel said:

Yes, because it makes sense that every time anyone offers up a critique that everyone should just accept it and not offer up a valid counterpoint.

It's called a forum for a reason: it's a place for a discussion, not just a complaint center.

KommissarK said:

I'm saying if people have issue with a product then it is in some ways broken and should be fixed before shipped. You have good suggestions about how to make the weapons specialist a sniper, instead of defending them on a forum you should send that idea to the devs so it can be implemented. The point is not to excuse an oversight via houserulings at this point but to improve the product. Your suggestion is elegant, simple, and easily implemented in the next update so send it in; houserules are for issue with the final product, not the beta.

Darklordofbunnies said:

Calling something broken, that simply does not exist within the system as it sits, is as useless as calling people of an opposing view point apologists.

" I want a Human Sniper" does not mean something is broken.

The lack of a human sniper option is a legitimate issue for many people - as testfied by this monster topic. Whether a workaround can be made misses the point of this forum imo.

As a GM I don't want to use the Weapon Specialist to create a faux human sniper, I want my players to be able to make one straight. Leave workarounds for when the RAW is set.

Fresnel said:

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. The argument is going completely in circles. Could you at least state why do you think a Weapon Specialist with a sniper rifle and sniper oriented growths is a "faux" sniper? Other people have gone to great lengths to explain why human snipers already exist, the least you could do is counter their argument instead of dismissing it outright.

The point of this forum is to point to places where the existing material can be improved. If the game were already published then a topic explaining how to use the WS to build a human sniper would be a great contribution, to the main OW forum.

An explicit path for a human sniper would be an improvement to the published game. The WS sniper build could be made explicit in the published OW, but it would imo appear kludgy next to the Ratling sniper.

It would be better imo if the published OW decoupled the sniper from Ratlings. In fact I think that Abhumans could be kicked to the players guide and more thought given to them. If Ratlings were kicked from the main rules then presenting a WS sniper built might look neat. But simply claiming there is no issue doesn't work from me.

Fresnel said:

Oh come on…You are still dodging the question. What is it that makes the Weapon Specialist a a "faux" sniper?

I understand that you want Ratlings to be seperate from Snipers but you should realize a few things:

• OW is based on the Imperial Guard. The Imperial Guard uses Ratlings as Snipers therfor in Only War, Ratlings are Snipers.
• FFG needs to get (everything?) approved by GW. If GW says Ratlings = Sniper there's not a lot that can be done about it except those solutions (like extracting the Ratling as a Template) that have been created by the community and can only be created by the community due to the limitations that GW enforces upon its IP and those that handle said IP (FFG).

The issue seems to me that you are very fixated on one type of sniper (that is the type that the Ratling represents) instead of accepting the fact that there's more than one way of portraying the sharpshooter archetype.
I'd really like to hear some critiziem from you about options that the WS should have to make him less of a "faux" sniper without making him exactly the same as the Ratling.

Imo I am merely sticking to the topic.

To address your points.

I simply do not believe the GW line editor would veto human snipers in OW. A Codex is content limited, the limit of its scope shouldn't be over-read as the absolute limit of the game universe. GW sell figures of human snipers. The Tanith regiment is mentioned in the IG codex - this is from the Gaunt's Ghost novels which feature human snipers. In fact these novels when through the same GW approval process as FFG stuff does.

The issue with a WS sniper is not some much one of game mechanics, but game presentation. People will buy OW and start generating characters. Some of these people will lament the lack of human snipers. This may kick off a long discussion with many strongly held and differing opinions… Not ideal.

Believe it or not, some people don't read these forums. So the wonder of the WS sniper build may not occur to them. It what be better if the situation was avoided and the desire for a human sniper explicitly catered for. Obviously a highly contentious opinion for some!

Tons of people came up with ideas for a Space Marine sniper independantly of the FFG forums, Human snipers ARE in the IG codex; they are a special weapons team; the same ones that take meltaguns, plasmaguns, and flamers.

Fenrisnorth said:

Huh, alrighty then. Maybe there should be a bit more focus on that then, like highlighting the fact that the WS can be made into a sharpshooter (as proposed in this thread). Based on Only War and a casual knowledge of the setting outside of the 40k RPGs I've assumed that the only dedicated snipers in the Imperial Army are Ratlings and the Vindicare Assassins (and potentially various regiments that use stronger yet slower firing rifles than the average guardsman).
I've assumed that the idea that "the Ratling is the Sniper and the Sniper is the Ratling" is something that is just how the IG does things and thus enforced by GW.

Also veteran squads can take both sniper rifles and camo-cloaks.

To be quite honest, as a sniper in OW, I'd want my shot to be dodged; so the heavy could cram a krak-missile up it's butt while the WS and ST Las-Barrage it and laugh that it wasted its precious dodge on a single sniper bullet. Remembr you aren't a solo character, you are part of the squad, and a squad works as a team, or dies as individuals.

But the sniper rifle can pretty much hit as hard as a krak missile so…. Harder if you can get a headshot.

DJSunhammer said:

I'm going to doubt that.

Long-Las on a very accurate hit:

3d10+3 Pen 1. (only 1 of those d10 may generate RF).

Krak Missile:

3d10+8 Pen 8. Minimum damage 6, target must test Toughness at -30 or be stunned for a number of rounds.

Fresnel said:

So can a starting OW squad.

Musclewizard said:

In the IG all Ratlings are snipers and scouts but not all scouts and snipers are Ratling. Any squad capable of buying a special weapon can make this a sniper rifle and there are specialist weapon squads that can carry 3 in between 6 men. Human snipers have also been portrayed in several novels, such as the Gaunt's Ghosts series, though interestingly enough snipers in the books rarely, if ever, use spotters.

Fresnel said:

From my understanding, this is in fact false. You only need to look at some of the patently ridiculous stuff that has slipped out of BL in some of the lesser-known novels. See, for instance: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/C.S._Goto (Note: I haven't read the novels, but I assume even if this is hyperbolized, some of it is at least true).

BL is a division of GW…

So where do the boundaries lie for FFG? Perhaps they are a little wider than some assume?

Fenrisnorth said:

Also, I think a way cooler solution to your idea would be a talent that would allow a character to double as a "PC Spotter comrade" for the Heavy, deliberately choosing when and where to "waste" a shot to steal someone's Dodge rather than being forced into a 100% fail role. Might be a fun addition to the game, actually, as I think it really would increase teamplay.

HTMC said:

Here's a bunch of quotes w/ sources on the subject:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. […] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe , former GW game designer, now freelancing as a Black Library author

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare , former GW game designer, now freelancing as a writer for FFG

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden , most famous for his Horus Heresy novels

Now, my Marine buddies, (Hoorah, not Space) have given me the idea that a sniper's job is first and foremost to get enemies to take cover; not to kill people. Now once you get into Special forces and the CIA and other paramilitary stuff, then you are getting into the territory of the DH Assassin. That aside, you have taken my statement to an absurd level to invalidate it. Did I say the sniper's job would be to miss? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't. Hell, if the sniper is being sneaky, they AREN'T going to be dodged, at which point the Ratling's comrade is nullified, and the WS's Pinning one starts to shine. What would you do to make the ratling stand out? Actually make them be the chef? give them Weapon Training (Spoon)? They are only snipers. it's all they're good at. in fact, they are better at it than humans. Why are people up in arms about Ratlings being better snipers, and not about Ogryn being better meleers?

Fenrisnorth said:

I take it you've missed the 10 page long (maybe longer now) thread on people complaining about Ogryn stats. :-P