JuankiMan said:

That is the apparent canon position from the IG Codex - they are recruited as snipers, some doubling as cooks. No other official capacity is offered.

However, the IG Codex does not state that this restriction is a mandate from the High Lords of Terra. Therefore I am suggesting that there is wriggle-room within the GW canon here for OW to use. This Ratling restriction could be softened in the interest making Ratlings more interesting as PCs within OW. It might be generally the case that 95+% are snipers, but particular regiments in the vastness of the Imperium might train Ratling recruits for other supporting roles. An absurd and outrageous suggestion?

Fresnel said:

Don't know if you know this, but GW is kind of infamous for being as strict and controlling as the Imperium they feature. They're kind of notorious about controlling what is canon or not, such as their heavy slap-downs of any major fan works. Obviously I can't say for certain, but given their treatment of other things, I wouldn't be surprised if in fact FFG doesn't have as much wiggle room as you think.

HTMC said:

Exactly - everything FFG makes has to be put past GW, and if GW says "no, Ratlings are all snipers or cooks, nothing else", then that's how it is.

I am aware of this. It is up to the author and the FFG OW line editor to present a case to GW. I am suggesting that they do so.

Expanding the role of Ratlings, modestly and with caveats, (within OW) might not (conceivably) be vetoed by GW.

There is a lot more wriggle room than you think. As you must have noticed, OW has an open development system, which means that all Ratlings start as snipers and cooks, given such roles by an unsympathetic and uncaring Munitorum, but after that? The sky is their limit as long as they're willing to pay the XP to fulfill whatever dreams of glory they might harbor.

And FFG might require GW's approval, but if your GM decides that your regiment uses abhumans for extraneous and exotic roles, there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop him.

The freedom of individual games is not in question. However, many GMs and players are very conservative. Witness the reaction here to me suggesting Ratlings be allowed, even slightly, out of their box…

I am wanting OW to included a paragraph like:

"Although most imperial regiments only employ Ratlings as snipers and cooks, some have a tradition of allowing them access to other specialist roles. Often this arose in exceptional circumstances - when a Ratling proved an aptitude in the heat of battle. Thus Ratlings might be found as operators or medics in some regiments. However, by Imperial decree no abhuman can be given a command rank."

In addition, I would like sniper to be decoupled from Ratlings - allowing human snipers at character gen.

Hey if you want to prove the value of your ratling in other roles, take WT: Heavy and then use your spotter to ensure no one can dodge your las-cannon….

MILLANDSON said:

At least given how OW as a system works, the player can at least make the Ratling not function as a sniper.

KommissarK said:

Exactly. In OW classes aren't the straightjackets of other WH40k RPGs. The fact that the IG pigeonhole all Ratlings under sniper and recon roles doesn't mean they cannot learn to perform other roles competently, and just as you can make a non-sniper Ratling you can effortlessly make a human sniper, even at chargen.

Hell, the Ratling in my squad is a deranged psychopath that runs around cooking people with a flamer.

KommissarK said:

Exactly, it takes in-game development or extra XP at the beginning of the game. However, it does limit the starting skill set if GW only want Ratling snipers/cooks/scouts.

Not that that's a bad thing, since we've only ever seen Ratlings as cooks and snipers, to my knowledge. That is how they'd be trained initially.

JuankiMan said:

Does he scream "I am a sexy, shoeless God of War!" while he does it?

Although come to think of it, in 40k that would probably start giving you corruption points and lead rapidly to being the galaxies shortest Berserker of Khorne.

In my RT-Xenos Anti-Defamation League game we have a halfling close-combat specialist/mountain dew addict that the BigMek uses as a missile weapon… That might not be the best example however…

MILLANDSON said:

Freedom post character gen is great, but this sniper/ratling link is not ideal.

People want to play humans as snipers and people want to play Ratlings in other roles. Why not given people what they want at character gen?

How each recruit is initially trained is up to the planetary traditions that creates the regiment. The IG Codex is clear that the details are up to the responsible planetary authority. Only if the regiment is substandard will Imperial authorities object. Has anyone ever commented that the Tanith first and Only had human snipers? Hell, GW even make figures of human snipers! At the very least, not being able to create a human sniper at character gen needs to be addressed.

The whole point of this forum is to point out issues like this and make a case for a change. So I still stand by my view (see earlier post).

Human Sniper is Weapon Specialist, plain and simple. It doesn't need multiple 6 page long threads to realize this.

Or maybe, just maybe, they are not dumping everything at once so they can expand and grow the game over time?

And what other roles could the standard Ratling perform anyways? Heavy? Not likely. The gun weighs more than he does. Medic? He's an abhuman. A Ratling doctor would be like a black doctor circa 1700AD. Sergeant? High Command would undoubtedly complain were a regiment put a non-human in a command position. Operator? No Forge World would lower itself to produce Ratling-sized combat vehicles, nor would they find any logical reason to do so. Weapons specialist? Could work were it not for the fact that 90% of Ratlings crumble like tissue paper in fron line combat. Comissar? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No. Authorized psyker? Just like Ogryns, Ratlings are not a psychic species and if a Ratling ever showed psychic powers he would be purged post-haste. Storm Trooper? Same problem as with the Heavy. Priest? Even if the Ministorum allowed it, it would be weird being a priest of a religion that says you suck. Enginseer? Techpriests see other humans as inferior. Ab-humans probably don't even register in their built-in auspex.

If a Ratling fights, grows and proves himself capable in any other field, more power to him. But due to fluff or simply due to being a fragile meter-high ball of hair and fat Ratlings are unsuitable for any other battle role other than sniper/scout at chargen. Ogryns have the exact same problems but, what do you know? being a musclebound stomping juggernaut with a foul temper doesn't have people complaining.

Well, the Ratling has more than twice as many twin-aptitude opportunities than the weapon specialist, including two additional attributes [Fel/Per], Awareness, and the only Weapon Specialist talent it cannot learn as cheaply [among its much larger pile of them] is Ambidextrous, which doesn't mean much to a dude with a sniper rifle.

The Ratling starts with a sniper weapon, while the weapon specialist is only going to see one if he can get his entire regiment to pick one as a favored basic weapon. He's harder to hit to compensate for being slightly easier to kill if he does get hit, has greater perception, better fellowship as well.

A weapon specialist needs a special regiment just to be able to try to slowly build towards being able to snipe, though potentially, he's got 5 higher Ballistic skill.

Alright, what a human loses in perception, they gain in toughness. While a stiff breeze is going to mess up a Ratling quite seriously, a human would be better able to shrug off.

The smaller size, while useful for stealth, hinders them in other was (I doubt a GM is just going to say they can find Ratling size carapace armour).

As far as a sniper weapon, while yes, more of a house rule, any GM who is fine with a weapon specialist getting a meltagun (because its their regimental favorite) is off his rocker if he says "No, you can have the meltagun, but Emperor help you if you want a sniper rifle!" Failing that, a freshly minted Weapon Specialist could just make the requisition test, trade in whatever nice weapon they have, and get a bonus to acquire a (only) scarce sniper weapon.

If the GM is actively working against a player who is trying to get something that is underpowered for what they could have (very rare weapon vs. a scarce weapon), then the player has a lot more problems incoming than just their inability to play the class they want.

I believe its more an issue of ensuring the game allows sensible things properly, rather than requiring gm-intervention or houseruling, as simple and likely as these fixes may be, while being perfectly happy with more ridiculous things.

Basically: "Why are we forcing the GM to make a ruling on this when there's no good reason to disallow it beyond 'someone forgot to put it in officially' "

Rather than "we need to make sure the GM can't just shut down the player's concept when its this reasonable by pointing out its just not in the rules"

If everyone's going to have to houserule in something like this, its an omission on the part of the system, not a point in its favor for 'allowing them to decide for it". They could just as easily decide "no, none of those" for their campaign if they wanted to say no.

Mileage varies on whether Ratlings can step out of the box the TT games puts them in. But human snipers…

The weapon specialist solution is a kludge and an ugly one. Perhaps it is too late for this level of rewrite, but that is a matter for the author(s) and line editor, not blowhards on this forum.

At the least I hope it is addressed in the 'player's guide' supplement.

Perhaps they should just allow heavies and weapon specialists to freely choose their starting gun (like you do in the TT) instead of limiting it to the regimental favorite. Maybe then people would stop complaining.

Really now, anyone can get a character with cheap BS and Hide skill growths and carrying a sniper rifle, but it seems he's not a sniper because it doesn't say "sniper" in his class name.

KommissarK said:

Yet it can't take the MOST BASIC THING A SNIPER HAS as a Comrade. A Spotter. Spotters are an integral part of modern Sniper Units. Yet only Ratlings can take it? It's one of the most 'agnostic' things there is, there's nothing "Ratling" about it, it's just arbitrarily given to them and makes them flat out Snipers.

Dulahan said:

"Modern sniper units."

There's very few things that are modern about IG regiments, the majority are far more similar to WW1/WW2 era units, and from my understanding (I could be wrong) snipers in that era often worked alone and without spotters; much like snipers depicted in many IG novels.

Even the stats support this. Modern sniper rifles have a range of around an average of 800m-2300m

The Long Las in OW? 150m base, and if we consider "Extreme range" maximum effective range, that's still only 450m, almost half of the lower end of modern sniper rifles. You hardly need a spotter for that short of a distance to be an effective sniper in 40k terms.

As has been pointed out in other threads, there's not much point in comparing modern military practices and other real-world examples for the 40k universe, unless there are still modern armies that win wars by throwing thousands of infantry at heavily fortified bases en masse.

my ratling sniper gets sicker and sicker. yesterday we assaulted the rafinery. in the first 20 seconds (4 rounds) I killed 4 orc sluggas in towers, then we moved away, our heavy shot his heavy bolter at some orcs and while they where running towards us, I killed another 3 in 15 seconds.

A great tactic against charging foes is delay and then hitting them full-auto with a heavy bolter at point blank. much fun has been had.

Dulahan said:

If we're talking modern military terms, the sniper / spotter combo does not work within the confines of a front-line squad. What modern squads have is what is called a "dedicated marksman" and those guys don't have dedicated spotters because they don't need them at the engagement ranges they operate. In the IG you would find sniper / spotter combos in specialist weapons squads, not in guardsmen / veteran squads, and if you notice OW squads follow those as a guideline during creation. Every single class in the game is, either part of a regular squad, or something you can attach normally, with the exception of abhumans, which feel extremely tacked on but is the only way you could get to play with them.

Dulahan said:

There is no reason to say that the Weapon Specialist's comrade doesn't function as a spotter. Yes, he doesn't get the nice bonus ability, but he is able to help increase BS. In fluff and function he could be a spotter.

Fresnel said:

That's some great evidence you're providing there, but let me counter that with something:

Weapon Specialist vs. Ratling

Characteristic Bonus: Weapon Specialist gets +5 BS or WS
Ratling gets +10 Per, +10 Fel, -10 T

In this case, neither is superior really. A Ratling is better at functioning as a scout, whereas the Weapon Specialist has a higher base accuracy.

Starting Aptitudes:
Weapon Specialist- Agility, Ballistic Skill, Fellowship, Fieldcraft, Finesse, Weapon Skill
Ratling- Agility, BS, Fellowship, Fieldcraft, Finesse, Perception, Social

Key differences: Ratlings do benefit by having 1 more, but in the realm of being a sniper, a Ratling just has Perception, while the Weapon Specialist does have Weapon Skill. Further making the Ratling the superior scout, but also enabling the Weapon Specialist to not be a complete slouch in melee if he needs to actually take out his knife. This is a slight advantage to the Ratling (+.5 for Ratling).

Starting Skills:
Weapon Specialist- Athletics vs. Survival, Navigate(Surface), Common Lore (IG/War)
Ratling-Awareness or Stealth, Deceive, Trade(Cook)

Given that the Weapon Specialist has 300xp more than a Ratling, he quite easily could still buy both Awareness and Stealth, and actually beat the Ratling, starting skill wise. Also, the Weapon Specialist has quite a few other useful skills (Navigate(surface), Survival? These are useful when going through the woods to get to that perfect spot). Advantage Weapon Specialist (+1 for Specailist)

Starting Talents
Weapon Specialist-Lasgun Barrage/Rapid Reload,3 Weapon Trainings
Ratling-Deadeye Shot, Heightened Senses(Sight,Smell,Taste)/Light Sleeper, Weapon Training(Las, SP)

The Ratling still maintains superior scouting abilities. Deadeye shot, while useful, still doesn't make taking a called shot all that superior to just making a standard attack. Accurate bonus damage does not threaten RF, so your chances of "getting a good effect" are still just plain slim. Most enemies end up wearing roughly similar armour all over (since GMs tend to be lazy in that field I find). The weapon specialist at least has 1 more Weapon Training, which has its uses. Also, While not particularly useful, Lasgun Barrage is a t3 talent vs. Deadeye shot being a t1 talent. So really advantage neither in this case.

Starting Traits:
Weapon Specialist - None
Ratling - Size(Weedy)

Probably advantage Ratling, if only because it aids in stealth checks, and makes them harder to hit. They still move slower, and ultimately they pay for this with -10 T and the worst starting wounds. Slight advantage Ratling. (+.5 for Ratling, considering that slow movement is bad when you need to run away, the toughness/wounds loss are calculated elsewhere)

Starting Gear:
Weapon Specialist- 4 Frag or Krak, Good Lasgun or Common Flamer or Common Shotgun or Common Regimental Favoured Basic
Ratling - Good Long-Las or Good Sniper Rifle+Sight, Chameoline Cloak

Obviously, the Ratling actually possesses the sniper gear, but the weapon specialist isn't far off. As stated earlier, there are a few ways it could be handled. 1st is Regimental Favorite (but thats a group sell). Second, is in realizing that the rest of the "non-favoured" weapons are scarce availability. The sniper weapons are scarce availability. If allowed to take a sniper weapon, they're giving up what would be a slot for up to a very rare weapon. In the sight of most GMs, this is an acceptable tradeoff. I imagine they just don't want to word the Weapon Specialist as "Any weapon up to scarce availability, or the Regimental Favoured Basic weapon," as that provides a few too many options. Also, it fails to show any weapons to starting players, and could be confusing. The Ratling doesn't have the extra grenades, which means the Weapon Specialist could set up a superior trap to avoid people sneaking up on him. The chameoline cloak is very nice though, with few options to actually "beat" it. There is a regimental equipment doctrine, or an additional supply option. It is a strong choice, so convincing the group to take it isn't impossible. Overall, advantage Ratling. (+1 for Ratling)

Starting Wounds:
Weapon Specialist- 8+1d5
Ratling- 5+1d5

3 wounds is 1800 xp for either of these specialties. While in general, you don't want to be hit, at least the specialist could take a hit. Advantage Weapon Specailist. (+1 for specialist)

Comrades:
Weapon Specailist- Armsman/Hail of Fire
Ratling - Spotter/Set-up shot

This is where things get a bit subjective. Obviously, the weapon caddy functionality of armsman is less useful to a dedicated sniper. Spotter is indeed useful, but even a single aim action with a sniper weapon, with just the basic bonus from a comrade is creating a base (+10 standard attack, +10 HA aim, +10 aiming with an accurate weapon, +5 generic comrade bonus) +35 bonus. Spotter increases this to +45 (in a single turn. even if not using a spotter, the +45 can be generated for shots that "matter"). Useful, to be sure, but given that the comrade could carry a wide array of weapons (and thus reduce weight costs), having a roving arsenal isn't a terrible thing either, especially when ones XP should be spent on things that are not toughness/strength.

The real big one is Set-up shot vs. Hail of Fire. The inability to dodge an attack is certainly nice. Note though, that to use this, reduces the total +BS to the attack (assuming the use of spotter, then the comrade is aiding with the aim, and set-up shot, so suddenly the difference in +BS bonuses between the Specialist and Ratling becomes +35 and a +40.

A few points to make here. First, if the enemy is unaware of the sniper (stealth becomes quite easy when you're sneaking around 500m away from the target), then they shouldn't be dodging in the first place (obviously this is mainly for the first shot, but some GM's can be lenient on the matter). Second, and this one is quite important, is that if the enemy can't dodge, then they can't spend their reaction. Effectively, they still possess the ability to dodge some other attack that turn. Conversely, if an enemy has dodged already, there is no need to make the shot undodgeable. Finally, as my argument has been in previous posts, all an undodgeable shot is, is plain damage. Which, certainly is nice, is what pretty much everyone else does. And its a very boring, very plain thing.

On the other hand, the ability to pin your target is quite unique. It takes one of the distinct advantages of a Full Auto weapon, and puts it into a single shot weapon. It no longer has the risk of harming allies who want to advance, and is instead a scalpel, able to cripple the actions taken by the enemy. Certainly, they may pass the test, but you can keep pinning them; eventually they will fail. You cant continually supressive fire with an autogun, you will run out of ammo. Pinning an enemy pretty much means you and your allies, win against that enemy. And, just because they dodge, doesn't mean they don't have to roll pinning; hell, I'm not even sure you have to hit them. So not only have they wasted their dodge, they're also pinned. Easy pickings.

Obviously, this is subjective, but I would seriously argue that the Weapon Specialist has an advantage over the Ratling in terms of comrade bonuses. To be fair, I'll say advantage neither.

Ratling Score = 2, Specialist Score = 2.

So once again if the only mechanical limitation for the Weapon Specialist to be a sniper is removed (e.g. a Sniper Rifle/Long Las is in the hands of a specialist), how exactly is this a "kludge" solution?

TL;DR; - I broke down every minute difference between the classes, and added commentary on why the two are not completely different/why a Ratling is not a "better" sniper than a Weapon Specialist, except perhaps, on the scouting front (Ratlings indeed have better perceptive abilities).