No, I saw it; but THAT one was that Ogryn sucked, not that they were wtfawesome.

Fenrisnorth said:

Aside from the "forcing people into cover" job being just as appliable to a Heavy Weapons Gunner and his heavy bolter, this varies greatly depending on the unit and the military/nation as well as the era you're looking at. Since the Imperial Guard supposedly covers everything, I don't see why one major role should be left out of the game, especially considering that this - and not suppression - is the one the existing mechanics for Ratling sharpshooters obviously support.

For reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_marksman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_sniper#Doctrine <-- what I tried to be in our game

Fenrisnorth said:

Yeah, you did. I quoted the relevant passage in my previous post.

The character intends to hit the target, but you as the player prefer the idea that this attack would negate the target's Dodge so that a player with a heavier weapon would kill him. In essence, the player's intentions are at odds with the character's. Unless you intend to play the character in this suppression role you mentioned - but then we still have the problem that this decision is essentially taken away from the player by firmly associating these roles with two different races, so you can't play a "killer" human sniper or a "suppressor" ratling sniper; the rules only support "suppressor" humans and "killer" ratlings. This could be easily circumvented by simply allowing some leeway when it comes to teaming soldiers with comrades.

The way the system works now, non-ratling snipers are quite simply not supported. The Weapon Specialist is the next best thing and an obvious choice to emulate a marksman, but it shows that this is improvisation on part of the player. I realize that FFG has a tendency to deviate from studio fluff, but at the same time I'm sure that a lot of players would enjoy the option to play human marksmen as well, and not just because of some specific examples in the IG Codex or various BL literature.

Fenrisnorth said:

Something that accurately reflects their superior tendency to become excellent marksmen, such as (obviously) appropriate Aptitudes and Characteristics bonuses as well as perhaps early access to a talent other classes/species have to work for, or a unique perk that allows the Ratling improved usage of some other skill or talent.

Because if you carefully consider the argument, you may notice that the Ratling's Spotter Comrade has absolutely nothing to do with race but with role .

What's next, people claiming that the Sergeant's Comrade is the only guy in the squad allowed to operate a voxcaster?

I never said I'd be HAPPIER if my shot missed; I mean, best case scenario, I hit and he flubs his dodge.

The two have virtually identical affinities, (Both missing Offense, which sucks; because the best stuff is BS+Offense)

The WS is better at landing said shot in the first place (BS Bonus), Since they are hidden, they should not need to worry about dodge in any case.

The Rat's comrade is helpful once you flub your stealth, which shouldn't happen.

The WS's ability to swap weapons on the fly is very nice, and allows you to not be slavishly attached to your long-las or sniper rifle. (swap between them, or have an anti-tank weapon to snipe with as well)

Also, Heavy Weapons don't Pin. as a rule. You CAN use them to overwatch or supressive fire; but then you're blowing through a whole lot of ammo and sacrificing your turn/chance to hit. The WS gets to do whatever and still pin, should he so choose.

I'm stil not seeing the WS being a bad killy sniper.

I don't think people have had enough time to realize what pinning with even single shot weapons is really going to do eventually. Orks as the first canned campaign doesn't help either, as they tend to have the WP to ignore it anyway with the whole mob rule thing.

Eventually people will realize that non-supressive fire as a source of pinning is quite nice. Note, that this means you can make your flamethrower pinning (I realize this is a non sniper related tangent, yet still an awesome realization); if you pin an enemy, and they're on fire, they can't take the full round action to remove the fire condition.

Since honestly, not everyone in a squad might have a FA weapon (even the heavy gunner), the ability to invoke pinning (especially with a sniper platform, and all the range that brings), is quite nice. Spotter, while useful, is a bit less meaningful next to a WS's base +5 BS that they have on a Ratling.

If a Ratling is using spotter + set-up shot, there is numerically little difference between that and a WS using the comrade to provide a +5 BS bonus and Hail of Fire.

Ratling - 35 BS base, self aim (+20 w/ accurate), self standard attack (+10 base), short range (+10), comrade spotter (+10 second aim), comrade set-up shot = 85 target

WS - 40 BS base, self aim (+20 w/ accurate), self standard attack (+10 base), short range (+10), comrade BS bonus(+5), comrade hail of fire= 85 target

The only time there is a notable difference is when a Ratling uses both the +5 and Spotter comrade actions.

+5, while nice, is largely trivial.

As far as pinning vs. undodgeable, different things for different people I guess.

Fenrisnorth said:

Fenrisnorth said:

Snipers within a squad are Designated Marksmen, and they don't hide like "true snipers" do. They act like any other soldier in the squad, with possible exception on how they prioritise targets and that they are the go-to guys for covering fire (a role shared with the machine gunner, if the squad has one) and for spotting. At least that's how I've learned it; perhaps someone with more real life experience in the infantry could clarify.

Fenrisnorth said:

You're basically trying to tell me that the Weapon Specialist is as good a sniper as the Ratling is, yet then you say that the Ratling needs to retain the Spotter as a unique aid because it makes him … better? I do realise that this is very circumstancial, and some people might even prefer the pinning ability. I just hope that it should be clear why other players regard the Spotter as a very powerful ability that would benefit their own gameplay style much more than the Comrade they get as per current RAW, and that the difference cannot be realistically justified by the background: Ratlings get to have a Comrade whose shot essentially makes the enemy dodge, whereas Weapon Specialists get a Comrade whose shot makes the enemy pinned. Narrative-wise, it's exactly the same thing (comrade's attack doesn't hit but is close enough to have an effect on the enemy), just with a different mechanical result. Again: this has nothing to do with race, but everything with role.

Fenrisnorth said:

Fenrisnorth said:

Call it bad dice luck, but if there's a perfectly viable option for a sniper of a different race, and if said option should have obviously nothing to do with the character's race whatsoever, then I think the game would be more fun if said option were be expanded to apply to snipers in general, not just Ratlings.

Ratlings who might not even be snipers, mind you.

/hug

I feel your pain sister. I've had times like that.

From what I have read of the IG; I'd guess the Munitorum doesn't hire Ratlings for other jobs because they'd be crummy at them; except chef.

He doesn't NEED to retain his spotter, in fact, it's a little overkill for him because he has the agility bonus to be great at stealth. On the steal subject; I figured that the squad designated marksman or whatever would be sneakingalong covering the squad; jumping from rooftop to rooftop in an urban environment, sneaking through the bush in a jungle, etc. Or even just rolling along with the squad and waiting until the scout tells them the enemy is ahead. (Or heck, they may BE the scout)

As to pinning, the difference between a sniper's pinning and a machine gunner's pinning is twofold. First, you are aware of the machine gunner's position for the most part; second, the sniper makes the squadstay deeper in cover because the shots are precise, rather than a sporadic burst you could run throught with luck. At least to my line of thinking.

Having looked closer at what a designated Marksman is; the Ratling stinks at it, while the WS does a better job. Long range accuracy without stealth is not a job for a midget in a camo cloak with a single fire rifle. The DM is about quick accurate fire; not doing one shot one kill stuff. The equivalent is someone with an M36 Lasgun in a squad of people with Lascarbines.

I'd rather take ratling out of the game than try and work them into the game as a sort of alternate "Race Choice" that puts them in specialties they have never been in fluff-wise.

You know, aside from being weedy, there is nothing a Ratling can do in and of himself that a WS cannot do.

They can have the same scores, skills and talents (admittedly at different XP levels.)

The differences that this thread has been argueing about for 7 pages lie entirely in the comrades. Who can die. And then, until you get issued replacement bullet stops by the Munitorium, the ratling and the WS are exactly the same except the ratling gets encumbered by his own bootlaces.

For that matter, the comrades are people , you can always say "Prvt Dodge Killer, you're with Specialist Jenkins today. Prvt. Caddy Mann you're with the ankle-biter." Can you find a place in the rules that says you can't trade comrades like pokemon?

I'm pretty sure that ratlings (In the codex and fluff) don't use standard issue gear, aren't great at following orders or standing up to enemies (Literally OR figuratively,)

You'd never see a ratling heavy gunner (Kick'd break his little twiggy arms), operator (can't see over the dashboard), Sgt. poor leadership skills (Ld 5 in codex) Weapon Specialists (special weapons are too big, no one makes kiddie sized meltas) Priests (Dirty abhumans being in the ecclesiarchy, feh,) Commissars (Ratlings don't get into Schola) Ogryns (Duh) Psykers (Abhumans don't get psychic mutations afaik, and if they did, they'd likely be executed as they skirt the line on being mutants anyways.) stormtroopers (Not hardy enough) or Techpriests (again, I don't think they make mechanicum implants for midgets.) Pretty much the ony specialty I see them as is Medic.

Perhaps the comrade bonuses should not so much be considered as roles that a specific comrade has developed into, but rather, techniques a class has learned to forge with others.

Take sergeants and their vox operators. Anyone can carry a vox, but only a Sergeant is able to as effectively use a vox operator to give orders like he does.

A Ratling is more communicative when working with his comrade, and is thus able to better process information, thus getting the spotter perk. A WS may use his comrade as a spotter, but does not benefit from the same aiming bonus.

If you consider the comrade talents to be less about "who" a comrade is, and more about "how" your PC interacts with them, then it makes some more sense.

Fenrisnorth said:

Yeah, that's what I've read, too. Then again, the RPG already allows people considerable leeway in doing things, anyways. The Storm Trooper should not even be a potential member of a squad, unless it's a 100% Storm Trooper squad. Whoever wrote the class did find a rather good explanation to this and make it seem reasonable, though. Yet by the same vein, it'd be easy to find an excuse to use Ratlings as, say, heavy gunners - like claiming excessive casualties, so that the cook has to help out. Both doesn't really swing with the Codex descriptions, but I can totally see players doing this.

Fenrisnorth said:

"Quick, accurate fire" compared to short range automatic weapons. It works quite well in Only War if you take the Long Las and the rest of the squad has M36's. It fills a tactical niche by increasing the squad's engagement range, and then resorting to picking off priority targets whereas the rest of the team (potentially excluding the heavy weapons guy) opens up and decimates the enemy numbers in general. Accuracy vs rate of fire, basically. Makes for a nice balanced teamplay, in my mind.

With the M36 compared to Las Carbines, however, there's not much to be said about filling niches. The M36 is both more accurate and able to shoot faster, making it plain superior to the other weapon in all fields sans reload time and weight (which don't really play an important role).

Fenrisnorth said:

Oh, I can relate. I wouldn't advocate it either. I'm just pointing out options that are available for players where they would just be strange - and where options are missing even though you'd expect them to be available.

Andor said:

True. I suppose I would generally welcome the Comrade system being as open as the character progression is. The downside I realize is that, of course, this means that the classes lose some additional "uniqueness", as the comrades are one of the very few exclusive perks they get. That being said, these are rank and file Guardsmen we're talking about. The differences should mainly lie with role and personality rather than unique comrade bonuses that, realistically, anyone should be able to get. It should be more about what you make out of what you're given, rather than what the book is throwing at you. Isn't that the entire point of having an open character progression in the first place?

KommissarK said:

In this particular case, meaning Hail of Fire vs Spotter, there's not much about interaction, though. In both instances, the comrade shoots at the target, and the target reacts by evasion. Why isn't the target Dodging the Hail of Fire? Why isn't the target Pinned by the Spotter shot? It's just a bit weird.

Oh well, poor Dasha is dead, anyways. Rolling up a plasma gunner for tomorrow now. Wish me (better) luck, comrades!

KommissarK said:

And makes the game even MORE class based, and the Ratling even MORE the specialist sniper no human can ever approach than ever before…