And it is perhaps worth pointing out that it's called "and they shall know no fear", not "and they know no fear".

As with all things in 40k, though, such details are a matter of interpretation and personal preferences, so FFG's version is certainly just as valid. I just find it fascinating how the original fluff of the Marines' inventors seems to be so much less popular with the players.

While Space Marines could be routed according to WD 129, it's clear that Space Marine morale went up and beyond the morale of any other fighting force in the "original fluff/crunch". Unless RIck Priestley doesn't count.

Hey, these rules could be fun in Deathwatch. Basically, you take a normal fear test and if you fail, you become Shaken (=can't go closer to any enemy except to help out a brother in CC within charge range). Only if you fail another fear test (from another source, arguably) while shaken you succumb to effects of fear. But even before that, you can test against WP every round to remove Shaken status.

Alex

No, it's a copy-paste from DW corebook

I think he meant that the rules in DW were partially just copypasted from RT and/or DH - which could be true, FFG has a habit of just copy-pasting earlier material where it would make sense (such as a vast majority of the d100 core rules). Often times, this even includes spelling mistakes and other errors.

While Space Marines could be routed according to WD 129, it's clear that Space Marine morale went up and beyond the morale of any other fighting force in the "original fluff/crunch".

I don't think anybody suggested this is not the case. The point was: in GW's material, they can break.

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions! When someone is saying "they are not that good" that does not automatically have to mean they may not still be the bestest, awesomest, mightiest, epicest stuff around.

I swear, sometimes it looks like you guys feel "threatened" by other armies trying to be cool, too.

Hey, these rules could be fun in Deathwatch. Basically, you take a normal fear test and if you fail, you become Shaken (=can't go closer to any enemy except to help out a brother in CC within charge range). Only if you fail another fear test (from another source, arguably) while shaken you succumb to effects of fear. But even before that, you can test against WP every round to remove Shaken status.

That still seems to go against the theme of the game. I'd say what Adeptus-B hinted at earlier might be a better solution: Have them test Fear as normal, and if they fail, they get the -10 penalty as per the RAW.

No, it's a copy-paste from DW corebook

I think he meant that the rules in DW were partially just copypasted from RT and/or DH - which could be true, FFG has a habit of just copy-pasting earlier material where it would make sense (such as a vast majority of the d100 core rules). Often times, this even includes spelling mistakes and other errors.

Yep, that's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

SM characteres MUST test fear when they face a creature with a Fear Rating.

Behold the Rule As Written:

AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR…

Space Marines do not deal with Fear as do other men. They are only marginally affected by fearsme foes and mind-breaking terror. The Fear rules presented in this section are intended to be used either on the players’ allies (such as Imperial agents or citizens) or on their foes (it is quite possible for the Battle-Brothers to cause Fear themselves). For a Battle-Brother, Fear has the following effects and then only when in the presence of Fear-causing foes:

• When facing a Fear causing foe a Battle-Brother must fight both its physical form as well as the horrifying nature of its presence. This additional effort imposes a -10 penalty to Willpower Tests if he is in Solo Mode for each Degree of Fear the creature possesses (see above). If the Battle-Brother is in Squad Mode, the Kill-team suffers a point of Cohesion Damage for every Degree of Fear the creature possesses unless the Kill-team Leader passes a Willpower Test (with the appropriate modifiers, see below). When facing multiple Fear-causing foes, the Battle-Brother only counts the highest (or most fearsome) source each Round. Unless otherwise stated, Cohesion Damage from Fear only occurs once per encounter with the Fear-causing creature.
• When facing a Horde (see page 359) of Fear-causing creatures, count their Degree of Fear as one higher than it actually is. For example, a Horde of Fear(1) Disturbing creatures counts as Fear (2) Frightening creatures.

In all other respects, Fear does not apply to Battle-Brothers, and they may even find its effects hard to understand in their allies, as it is truly an alien emotion to them.

- Deathwatch Rulebook , page 277

Space Marines never test for Fear in Solo Mode- they just take an automatic penalty.

-And in regard to Lynata 's point that the DW rules are more generous to SMs than the TT rules, you have to take into consideration than RPG players will frequently choose to make 'tactical withdrawls' when combat is going poorly; I think the TT Leadership rules are partially intended to reflect the fact that players will be more 'cold-hearted' with nameless minis than with a beloved RPG character, so they try to occasionally force common-sense reactions.

RPG players will frequently choose to make 'tactical withdrawls' when combat is going poorly

Really? I dunno, I've heard a lot of GMs complain about the opposite...

But yeah, TT Ld tests are not just as simple as trained warriors "shitting their pants" - the core rules actually explain what they can represent, and the range goes from all-out panic all the way to a simple loss in morale that lets individual troopers believe their situation to be hopeless, and break rank in order to preserve their lives.

They can regroup, depending on whether or not someone or something rallies these soldiers, which is represented by another Ld test, which Marines simply succeed at automatically.

Some very few units in the game are also entirely Fearless (but don't tell ak-73 that this includes "mere mortals") , though this has its downsides as well, as they eschew a more tactical approach in favour of just charging their enemy. Because in spite of how it is ridiculed by machismo, a certain degree of fear is actually a fairly important ability to have for a soldier, because it prevents them from attempting ridiculously risky stunts out of a mistaken belief in their own invincibility.

"Never share a trench with anyone braver than you are."

My belief regarding DW's generosity is mainly rooted in certain rather "impressive" Talents that player characters have access to there, as well as stuff like free Fate points just for roleplaying (aka Demeanours) or how the system's base mechanics react to Unnatural Stats (lifting and carrying, naked skin better than armour, etc).

Space Marines being treated differently to anyone else when it comes to Fear thus only seems to be fitting for that game.

Let's be honest - between Horde rules and throwing Hive Tyrants, that game is made for legendary heroics, not gritty realism.

Space Marines never test for Fear in Solo Mode- they just take an automatic penalty.

You did not read the paragraph preceding the one you quoted. Space Marines take Fear tests. The paragraph you posted details what happens, when they fail.

I don't think anybody suggested this is not the case. The point was: in GW's material, they can break.

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions! When someone is saying "they are not that good" that does not automatically have to mean they may not still be the bestest, awesomest, mightiest, epicest stuff around.

I swear, sometimes it looks like you guys feel "threatened" by other armies trying to be cool, too.

Well, they are not that good in the crunch. But in the fluff text on the same page we read:

"We know that the Space Marines are humanity's finest, that they do not run away from aliens, and that their current status on the wargames table does not reflect their true worth."

That still seems to go against the theme of the game. I'd say what Adeptus-B hinted at earlier might be a better solution: Have them test Fear as normal, and if they fail, they get the -10 penalty as per the RAW.

I fail to see why. Heroes should a few weaknesses. And what you described is RAW.

Some very few units in the game are also entirely Fearless (but don't tell ak-73 that this includes "mere mortals") ,

This is hardly news to me, right? Also, I see ATSKNF as not being more fearful than those who are fearless but rather more tactically flexible. At least that is how it plays out in the TT. After all units with ATSKNF are immune to the effects of Fear too.

Anyway, I think the DW's equivalent of the TT's regrouping under ATSKNF is the player voluntarily deciding to withdraw. Of course, it must be a fighting withdrawal as Astartes cannot run away without, like, losing 5 renown points.

FWIW, I got my players to want to avoid a fight last weekend. They opened a door and found 30 to 40 Plaguebearers waiting right behind it, alerted by their nearby Daemon Prince master via telekinesis. The team tried to seal it again but someone in the system was blocking the door. So they had to defend the doorstep bottleneck until the Techmarine was to overcome the blocking attempt. Which was not easy with a Plaguebearer Maneuvring the Techmarine away from the door. Ultimately, the Assault Marine and the team's Fire Wasp were causing enough casualties among the Plaguebearers so that whoever was blocking the door decided to shut it again. Ah, they should have made a deal with that imp (turned out to be a Daemon Prince later) instead of trying to kill it.

Case in point: if you want players to avoid a fight in DW, go big or go home. 15 Plaguebearers wouldn't have done.

[As an aside, I spontaneously used a mix of hordes and individual Plaguebearers here. Individual for the frontline PBs which the PCs had to fight directly. And horde rules for the masses behind as a gauge when the PB overseer had seen enough casualties to voluntarily close the entrance door. Horde rules are just a tool in the GM's arsenal, try to use them creatively.]

Alex

PS Speaking of mass combat rules - any updates on yours Lynata?

Behold the Rule As Written:

Read the line before "And They Shall Know No Fear..."

If the PC passes this test, then he may continue

to act as normal. If he fails, however, he succumbs to Fear.

Yeah.

Totally not a copypaste from DH, imo, the whole Fear thing is basically different even if sharing the same name

You did not read the paragraph preceding the one you quoted. Space Marines take Fear tests. The paragraph you posted details what happens, when they fail.

And what you described is RAW.

I don't think this is correct, although it is somewhat badly worded in the book (surprise!).

The book says that the -10 modifier applies to Space Marines "when in the presence of Fear-causing foes" and makes no mention of them doing a Test. The book does say, however, that the other Fear rules of that section are "intended to be used either on the players' allies or on their foes". As far as I can see, this would also include the bit about taking a Test on how exactly a character is affected by Fear, as it is not part of the Marine-specific ATSKNF sub-section.

I'm not discounting the possibility that it was originally intended to work as you say and as Adeptus-B house-ruled. But if so, it should have been written differently.

Well, they are not that good in the crunch. But in the fluff text on the same page we read:

"We know that the Space Marines are humanity's finest, that they do not run away from aliens, and that their current status on the wargames table does not reflect their true worth."

Well, obviously not. The same goes for most other armies, though. Do two tanks and a single artillery piece reflect "the true worth" of the Imperial Guard?

You are way too focus on their combat prowess again. Part of the Space Marines' worth for the Imperium of Man is their ability of rapid deployment to react to threats the Guard would be (too) slow to mobilise again, which obviously plays no role whatsoever in the tabletop. They are also an icon of the God-Emperor's might and thus a significant propaganda tool. And even though some battles in the tabletop could be interpreted that way, they are commonly not regarded as representing stuff like a decisive blow against the enemy command structure, where only the Marines have the necessary tools to execute such an operation. Hence that misunderstood status. It's a bit sad how the majority of people only seem to register how awesome they are at killing things, missing out on the details that kind of make up half their existence.

I believe this limited perception is also why very few people would want to accept a more "grounded" version of Marines, thinking that anything less than however they perform in their interpretation would make them too normal and too much like other forces. But I'm deviating from the topic at hand now, and I think we already had this discussion anyways.

I fail to see why. Heroes should a few weaknesses.

Well, the PCs can still die!

It just seems to me the rules are "idealising" them in a (possibly somewhat corny) Hollywood fashion, and fear has little place there. Did Leonidas in 300 display fear-induced reluctance?

For what it's worth, Fear is so anti-thematic for this game, and the RAW effect so negligible, that it could have just as well been written out altogether. Same as it happened to corruption-induced mutation which does not apply to Deathwatch Space Marines either - apparently oblivious to what happened during the Horus Heresy, and how it works for Marine PCs in FFG's own Black Crusade RPG.

It's quite simply a special treatment due to the special theme of the Deathwatch RPG. Other FFG RPGs have similar special treatments affecting other aspects of play.

PS Speaking of mass combat rules - any updates on yours Lynata?

Nah, sorry. I think I've reached a point where I cannot proceed without some playtesting to see how it works in action, how intuitive it is for other people, and where I need to tweak something.

Maybe I'll get to see it in my group's new BC game, but first our GM needs to come back from vacation, and then I kind of doubt he'd have us face that kind of opposition in the very first session. ^^'

Behold the Rule As Written:

Read the line before "And They Shall Know No Fear..."

If the PC passes this test, then he may continue

to act as normal. If he fails, however, he succumbs to Fear.

Yeah.

Totally not a copypaste from DH, imo, the whole Fear thing is basically different even if sharing the same name

The 'Copy/Paste' I was referring to was between rulebooks :

FEAR

Fear comes into effect when the Acolytes are confronted with scenes of atrocity or horror, or when they are called on to battle against terrifying aliens, insane perversions of science and nightmarish entities from the warp. When an Acolyte is confronted by such a frightening event or adversary, they must take a Fear Test; this is a Willpower Test, modified by how frightening the thing is. If the Acolyte passes this Test then he may continue to act as normal. If he fails, however, he succumbs to Fear.

- Dark Heresy Rulebook , page 232

FEAR

Fear comes into effect when the characters are confronted with scenes of atrocity or horror, or when they are called on to battle against terrifying aliens, insane perversions of science and nightmarish entities from the warp. When a PC is confronted by such a frightening event or adversary, they must take a Fear Test; this is a Willpower Test, modified by how frightening the thing is. If the PC passes this Test then he may continue to act as normal. If he fails, however, he succumbs to Fear.

- Rogue Trader Rulebook , page 295

FEAR

Fear comes into effect when a person faces unnatural horrors and mind-bending foes, or when he is called on to battle against terrifying aliens, insane perversions of science and nightmarish entities from the warp. When a PC is confronted by such a frightening event or adversary, he must take a Fear Test; this is a Willpower Test, modified by how frightening the thing is. If the PC passes this Test then he may continue to act as normal. If he fails, however, he succumbs to Fear.

- Deathwatch Rulebook , page 277

The above paragraph was Copy/Pasted into the DW Rulebook from the previous WH40KRP rulebooks, with minimal alteration, to illustrate Fear in general ; it then launches into the separate Fear rules for Space Marines.

Space Marines take Fear Tests. If they fail, then the normal rules for the effects of Fear do no apply but their own special rules (which are badly designed as-is anyway).

Nah, sorry. I think I've reached a point where I cannot proceed without some playtesting to see how it works in action, how intuitive it is for other people, and where I need to tweak something.

Maybe I'll get to see it in my group's new BC game, but first our GM needs to come back from vacation, and then I kind of doubt he'd have us face that kind of opposition in the very first session. ^^'

Devise a synthetic set-up or two and run them on the forums. I am sure you will find one or two volunteers.

Alex

For the record, I would volunteer for a forum-based test-run of your squad rules. We could take the pregen PCs from Falling Star, which are complete versions of those for Final Sanction (Rank 2, iirc).

Alex