Not to invalidate most of what you said... but FFG was certainly not a bigger 'gaming area' than WOTC had. Sure, in the Dealer's Hall, but WOTC had a huge chunk of the Card Hall, and a large chunk of the second floor devoted to it. Sure FFG had some big stuff in the open gaming hall, and I'll concede that visuals in the Dealer's Hall is a big deal, but compared to WOTC? Not a chance...

That being said, I've -heard- and even seen some not terribly reliable sources that FFG's 40k line is hands down the second biggest RPG in the world, and by a rather large margin. Only D&D competes, which doesn't shock me in the least (I'll be shocked if D&D is ever in 2nd place for long, maybe for a few months in the lead up to 5th when people don't want to buy new 4th... but yeah. The simple fact FFG can even come close is impressive!). I'd love to actually see some articles, but it's a pain in the bum to find them, given how many other things RPG pulls up that are much more mainstream.

Dulahan said:

Are you combinind D&D 4e and Paizos Pathfinder here into the first place?
IIRC some time last year Paizo overtook WotC in terms of sales (total?) for roleplaying games I believe. So I'd assume that FFG would probably be at 3rd place or somewhere in the top 5 but not on the first or second place.

Dulahan said:

Dulahan said:

Howdy,

FFG's dealer's area and demo/gaming area in the dealer's room was by FAR the biggest footprint of ANY company - which was rather quite surprising!

The lines at FFG for the newest product in 2010 and 2011 were by far the largest lines seen at GenCon in a *while*. WotC still has the largest dedicated gaming areas outside the Dealer's Hall at the con - they have a HUGE gaming area in the card hall, most of which goes unused for large parts of the day (but the areas that are used are large). The D&D area is VERY big, but sadly has been seeing less crowds in recent years (I am looking at YOU, 'Pathfinder'...). In 2011, FFG had a MUCH larger presence and visual cue in the Dealer's room, hands down, than any other company. LONG gone are the days of TSR's foam castle and WotC's large gaming stage and demo area.

I have been hearing that the 40K roleplaying line is HUGE and in the top 4, but it does have a massive tie-in with computer games, miniatures, novels, and all of the other GW licenses. D&D was overtaken in sales sometime in late 2009 by Paizo and their 'Pathfinder', which is why there is a rush to junk 4th edition and call in a bunch of the 3.5 design team, as well as Monte Cook, for their design for the new 5th.

Dakka Dakka should have some links to 40K sales and the like, mostly directly tied to GW (but they did have some stuff concerning licenses in the past. The Comic Buyer's Resource page used to have RPG news and sales items - you could probably search there.

Ken

Thought I might as well pitch in my thoughts on this book here after much silence.

I am currently sitting in camp sceptical about Only War. First off I don't see what this adds to the existing books. Humans are in 3 of the 4 existing books. Guardsmen are already in DH as is several comparable careers. Vehicles are there too including a bunch of Guard stuff. As for mass combat well thats been covered in about 3 methods as I recall. The only thing I see this adding is a new collection of prewritten stuff in one handy book.

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably buy this (heck I have the other 4!) but await to be convinced. Why running a Guard style game couldn't be in a supplement when they did it for the Grey Knights is beyond me.

What I would of prefered would be a simple update to the DH core. Now I'm not talking a full on new edition like many have mentioned but correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the current errata (other than 1.0) not even in the core book? Even including a few new updates from other books dosn't mean redoing all the other DH supplements.

For at least the past two years the US retailers data listed the 40K RPG line as the 3rd highest selling, right behind Pathfinder and then D&D in 1st place in 2010, and D&D in 2nd and Pathfinder in 1st in 2011.

BYE

With all the complaints about the current DH system being dated, why would you WANT Only War to be released as a supplement? The fact that this started as such and ended otherwise is, IMO, a good sign that they might not be doing any more for DH. Sure, give DH a new adventure now or then, but there's no need for a 2.0 or new rules. DH has run it's course for rulebooks so it's time to move on. There's still plenty available to run a DH game and I highly doubt that they will stop printing the current books, but as I said, time to move on.

OW is definitely the rpg book that I've wanted from the start. CSI:40k just isn't my thing. And I'll gladly pay the cost of a full rulebook if it means getting away from the stupid psyker system in DH as well as incorporating the other improvements the various series have made along the way.

On the note of business practices, a 2.0 would require all the other books to be updated as well. If what I'm seeing is correct, leaving systems behind at a certain point while still keeping them in print, is not limiting their players at all, just increasing the options which you CAN play. A much better system that will never see any of your product as completely unplayable while still always selling it. WotC would be doing a lot better if it still sold 3.5, seeing as almost everyone I know is stuck in that edition.

Seriously, what is wrong with this small but extremely whiny and negative subset of DH players? You guys whined when Rogue Trader came out, you whined when Deathwatch came out, and you whined when Black Crusade came out. Freaking deal with it already! If you don't want to play a game, there is a very simple solution: don't buy it. I don't see this amount of griping coming from RT or DW players...

There are a number of us who don't want to play the weak summer interns of a much more cool NPC Inquisitor. The 40k universe is big enuff for everyone to get to play what they want. Maybe some of us want to play explorers, or Space Marines, or heretics, or Guardsmen. Why should that concern you one bit? As a DW GM myself, I welcome a new core book, just like I welcomed BC when it came out. The more, the merrier, let everyone get to enjoy playing what they want. Enjoy what you like and stop trying to deny other people what they like!

Only War never made sense as a DH supplement, and I'm happy that FFG figured that out. Seriously, an entire supplement just for one career (Guardsman)? That only makes sense if FFG was planning an individual supplement for every other career as well, which would have been a ludicrous waste of time and staff hours. Only War is much better off as a stand-alone game.

S-s-s-seriously?

In any case, seeing as I am off to bed, I won't have time to reply to that today- but I will be sure to post something by tomorrow.

Just to say that I did not whine when Rogue Trader came out- I did not whine when Death Watch came out- and though the Idea of playing Dark Crusade sorta turns my stomach slightly [Perhaps it is the puritan in me talking?] I still did not whine when it came out.

The crux of the issue, and whats causing the "whining", as you put it, are two folds: FFG trying to have its cake and eat it too.

You cannot make "preach that this new a game" then put in, right there on the front-page, fully compatible. You can't have it first become a supplement, then change that up without as much as an announcement [At least change the "Knowledge is Power!" document! Or Maybe tell Amazon they are not selling a book that's never going to come out.] without affecting those who had first intended to buy the book.

Furthermore, what some of us are saying is quite the opposite of what your saying- Dark Heresy is not limited to CSI "In Space"- in fact, the Inquisitor's Handbook is a few hundreds pages worth of GUNS. That acolytes are going to use in combat and NOT investigation.

To keep on that same track, Only War as a supplement was not really limited to guardsmen only: Clerics, Psykers, Tech-priests and even adepts all have a place in the book- if the "new classes" proposed are any indication.

The "Stupid Psyker" system in DH is not nearly as bad as everyone seems to think it is. My Group is using it and having a lot of fun with it. I've always felt that fettering is the problem, more then anything else. Not to mention, combining the systems with Unnatural stats- which no PC should have.

FFG's "Book for Every Career" had already started- with Blood of Martyrs AND Book of Judgement. Neither book are limited to Clerics or Scums and Arbitrator respectively, though both are heavily designed to enhance the playing experiences of those classes and those aspects of the game. And both books in terms of both Fluff and mechanics add a new twist to the game and reinforce it considerably- without feeling the need to make up a new core book for anyone who felt like playing Missionary In Space or Cops and Robbers of the 40k Century.

I don't think WERE complaining about the DH system being dated- I like the system. I simply feel that if FFG feels that the system is dated, and that is the reason why its moving away from it, it should update the system.

As for updating ALL of the current DH books- that won't be necessary. A partial update to the system would be more then enough: if combat was fixed, along with a few traits and talents, the game rolls around smoothly. You do not need to alter skills [by fusing them] and any change in psychic power rules would not need to fix up all of the books, as only a few other books even have Psychic powers in them [and most of those are sorcery as well, so can arguably leave Sorcery the same while changing the Psyker abilities for a first round then provide proper conversion rules for those in an Errata.]

The more the merrier is the sentiment were for here: and in this particular case, were adding something new but cutting off the old. As others have pointed out, though I really would have wanted to have this SUPPLEMENT to enhance my Dark Heresy [because its fully compatible with it]- I am going to vote with my wallet and simply not buy it. A shame though, because I was looking forward to the book.

Woah, all of this, and I was headed to bed and I didn't even want to answer right there and then ... Might add more tomorrow, might not, we'll see..

Edit- Also, on man thats true. GREY KNIGHTS were in a supplement. And only the end 25% of the thing too. In retrospect, they probably regret not making THAT into a Core-book.

Ok, just seeing this! Just yesterday I was reading one more Gaunt's Ghosts novel and I thougth "wow, it would be cool if there was an RPG about this".

And today I see this...

Still I won't be buying it. I've bought Dark Heresy a few months ago, and I guess I'll stick with it. I really dislike to buy a book where half the content is already written in another book I already own.

FFG, pls just make a "core rules" game, say for 30 bucks, then sell "campaign expansions" for another 30 bucks each.

I know this has already been said in this thread, just thougth I'd add my +1.

Tanith First and Only FTW!

Hehateme said:

Howdy,

'Only War' made sense as a DH supplement *because* FFG looks to be releasing a book for each of the career paths (Inquisitors, Arbites, Sororitas, Ministorum, etc).

'Only War' *can* be a core game (even a good one), but will the support base and interest make it as profitable or better than other choices (DH 2.0, Eldar, Insert-better-choice-here). Playing vanilla human guardsmen may be fun for a scenario or two, but as an ongoing campaign? Regular military RPGs have fallen into this pitfall before. Deathwatch works because you are playing a GOD on the battlefield. In 'Only War', you will be playing a mortal human in a military hierarchy with limiting factors (your travel, looting, and conflict options are greatly reduced).

THAT said, there will be an audience, and more vehicles and aircraft is always keen.

My 2-cents.

Ken

That's my mistake then, I didn't realize each career in DH was getting a supplement. Now some of the resentment I've been noticing towards OW from DH players is starting to make some sense.

Still and all, I'm not certain where all this doom and gloom I see on the DH message boards is coming from. Why do people think that DH is dead? DH probably has nearly as many supplements as the other 3 game lines combined, and a new adventure trilogy was just released not long ago. So, can someone explain where the "DH is dead/dying" idea comes from? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm honestly curious.

It makes sense that DH is not going to get the first priority for supplements, as it has got a lot. However, there are still some various obvious things missing from the line, and until recently the only upcoming supplement announced was "Only War". Now that has turned into a whole separate game 1) there is now a book missing in the DH line (the one for Guardsmen) and 2) there are now no announced projects for Dark Heresy. Now, it may be that there are still going to be books produced, but if so nothing has been said.

Let's talk about announced books for a moment, as I think we're clinging to those preview PDF's from over a year ago a little too tightly.

Look at Deathwatch. First Founding, The Jericho Reach, Tempest Rising and Honour the Chapter were never previewed in that document. They are four books that have arrived or are about to arrive since that PDF preview came out, and one of them - First Founding - was even out within the window that had everything else released. Over in RT land we've also got Soul Reaver, another title that was not on that preview, and the only one missing from the RT line up is The Koronus Bestiary which is the next book to come out. And, on top of that, in that time we've had Black Crusade, it's GM Kit, Hand of Corruption (which seemed to take forever to come out), and Tome of Fate (and the Fate preview mentioned it being the start of a series of books).

And then back in the land of DH, everything in that preview document is either out, or about to come out, the one change being that Only War changed from a supplement to a whole game during its development (don't ask me when - I was contracted to the book well after that decision was made).

Also you have to ask - were they releasing 'class' books? I mean, Blood of Martyrs certainly is more geared towards Clerics, but it also had the full Sisters career in there. Book of Judgement - obviously an Arbite book - but then what about Daemon Hunter? What career was that geared towards? From my perspective I think they were - even if Daemon Hunter didn't fit within that schema - but we don't know what the future holds for Dark Heresy (other than it's not cancelled! ), so it might be too early to say.


But let's leave those old preview PDF's behind. Almost everything on them has been released, and the last two things that haven't have at the very least been officially announced and previewed.


BYE

On further consideration, I think Only War is a better idea than I had done. Why tie even more crunch to the creaking DH system? I'm now of the opinion new DH 1.0 supplements should focus on background (e.g. more details of Inquisition politics) and leave the rules to the newer systems.

Hehateme said:

DH isn't getting a supplement for every career though (and didn't get one for Inquisitors), but some people really want to believe that.

Book of Judgement had a lot for Scum and Arbites, but was largely a general book on crime and law in the Imperium. Blood of Martyrs had a lot for Soriritas and Priests, but again it's was for the most part a general book on religion in the Imperium. People ASSUMED that Only War was going to be along the similar vein, and even had it been so, by no means was it going to be THE book for the Guardsman career (no, based on previous releases it would have been generally about war, with some extra attention to Guardsmen.. and maybe another career or two).

They're 'class books' in the loosest sense of the word.

Delazar78 said:

Firstly, don't count on it. Secondly, don't beg for it that much, as a publishing scheme is has its own issues.

When WW did it (am I like the only person here who's ever played any of their games, btw?) they always included enough material in the "core rules" book to let you play something. In the case of Exalted, it was the Solars. In the case of the nWoD, it was mortals... what, praytell, do people think should be in a 40K RPG "core rules" book that lets you actually play something with that book alone? Because do I really need to explain that people WILL complain about a book full of rules that's useless for anything else (not to mention the way that would encourage people to pirate it)? Likewise the "campaign expansions" aren't going to be $30. Every 'fatsplat' for Exalted or the nWoD, was a big thick hardcover, easily over $30 in price. Why? Because they decided to take the room saved and fill it up with other juicy stuff related to the book's subject, because they could. Oh yeah, and there was ALWAYS rewritten material, no matter what, even if just a rehash of the character creation rules.

So... what do we do, stick DH in there too? Okay, we're back to the "core rules" book being $60 again. And then we get to listen to the person coming along to buy RT or whatever, complain about having to buy the DH book along with (instead of just having a seperate book with core rules... or our current setup).

Sometimes I think I've been a gamer for far too long...

Edit: And to give my two cents on DH, I think FFG is currently weighing the pros and cons of going in to a 2nd edition of it (and very probably only DH), though I don't entirely echo the complaints that most have with it (you have the crappiest acolyte team in the galaxy if minor powers make them all obselete).

I personally prefer the DH rules. With a little bit of a polish (clear up the unclear things), and a couple of the things from newer books (the only ones I can think of at the moment are the greater options for after a grapple, and the new Righteous Fury rules) and I think they would be fine. I personally don't actually like the change to melee attacks in BC(I didn't think there was a problem with the mechanics in the first place. The problem was with how they were used in Deathwatch), or the streamlining of the skills list.

I agree with Borithan. Although honestly have no interest in BC, and so don't know the rules changes in it, I always enjoyed DH. I also seem to be in a minority to prefer the psyker rules there, with the threshold numbers and whatnot, as it is far more unique, interesting, and random. The overbleed and '9' roll to invite catastrophe are much more flavorful and captivating than another bland skill roll.

In all, I'm not particulary excited about Only War being a whole game system, it seems like a mini version of DW. The scope may be different, but the options are even more limited, as guardsmen aren't likley to ever meet planetary governors or be jetsetting to faraway blasetd landscapes to kill vile enemies and steal ancient artifacts. I'm not trying to bash the guard, but face the reality that being an infantry private vs being a genehanced supersoldier are really two sides to the same coin, only that one side is much bigger than the other.

I just think the most interesting gaming oppertunites for OW charachters might be a 'saving private ryan' or 'Big Red One' or (although there's no movie yet, there will be) Shaikot Valley, Afghanistan. Then what? I'm not really into an Eldar game either, but I think there's enough of an umbrella already outh there to fit all of this stuff into exisiting lines.

I was very much against the changes BC made to combat, but over time (and after playing it) I came around and started to like it.

Really it brought more parallels between ranged and melee attacks into the rules and allowed melee attacks to slot into existing types of rules (eg. how Dodge worked against multiple ranged hits now works in the same way vs melee). In the end I like the fact that there are ‘tiers’ of attacks, so Semi-Auto and Swift Attack now follow the same mechanic, rather than one being multiple hits based on DOS and the other being separate attacks rolled individually.

It also allowed the introduction of Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill bonuses, broadening the scope of what could interact with those values, and allowing previously unscalable Talents to suddenly scale (Mighty Shot and Crushing Blow causing extra damage based on how skilled you are makes a lot more sense than being a flat value that never changes).

I don’t agree with every consolidation – I don’t mind Climb/Swim being turned into Athletics, but I think Concealment and Silent Move were different enough to leave as separate Skills – but I think that the BC method went a long way to freeing up a lot of the rules, especially in the prevalence of (X) values after certain rules (so Concussive becoming Concussive (X), Primitive becoming the logical opposite of Proven, and so on).

The only thing BC lacks IMO are fail conditions. There needs to be a Jamming mechanic that works with melee attacks, and downsides to really screwing up a Parry/Dodge. No Test should so automatic that there’s no point in rolling the dice. Again, a bigger problem in Deathwatch than anywhere else, but still.

BYE

Lionus said:

I hope you realise that most of what you just said was levelled at Deathwatch when it was first announced, that the scope was too small, that you couldn't role-play a Marine, that Marines were 1 dimensional, and that "killing stuff all the time" would make for a dull game? That said all of that about Deathwatch, and now you're saying much the same things about Only War.

So I'll give the same responce:

You get out of an RPG what you put into an RPG. If you approach this game thinking it has limited scope, then it will have limited scope. If you approach the game thinking that you can only do X with it, then X is all you’ll get.

BYE

I actually thought playing astartes was a hela cool idea from the start. As far a roleplaying guardsmen, well i did my 4 years as a grunt and as a drilling reservist in the U.S. Army, I feel pretty confident that experience gives me a pretty clear idea of what people like guardsmen do. Its not cool, fun or particularly exciting except when its terrifying. You spend more time training and planning than anything else and 90% of the time its madeningly boring. This probably sounds more bitter than I actually feel, but space marines are people of destiny. Guardsmen are just people. Thats not wrong, its just already covered in two systems. Three with BC.

H.B.M.C. said:

OOOoohhh Yeeeaaaah! Never a truer statement about RPGs.

We're still playing Dark Heresy, only one real house rule, and we're still lovin' it.

We play what we call 'Rambo Edition' Dark Heresy, where everyone has 30+ wounds, and I amended all the adversaries to have 30+ wounds and combat takes hours! In hindsight it really wasn't the best idea, but we are having fun.

When we hit Ascension we're going to have a 'rationalisation' and bring everything back down to normal levels.

BYE

Cifer said:

and this whole distinction between superhuman elite warriors whose deeds change the outcome of battles and rank-and-file cannon fodder grunts who are tossed into the trench to slow down the enemy for a few hours with their lives makes me wonder how Only War will play out.

But we will see when the book is here! I am curious, a little bit skeptic, but not annoyed or outraged. I will certainly get the book and see what it is like.

I had the same questions when Deathwatch was announced: where is the roleplaying potential in this game? The way we play it now is like an action-RPG with lots of cool scenes and heroic fights. Military missions with little inbetween them. Works just fine.

Dark Heresy however, in my opinion remains the most broadly scoped and best suited approach to roleplaying in the W40,000 universe!

H.B.M.C. said:

I wasn't terribly bothered about the fact that melee and ranged attacks used different methods. In fact I quite liked it. It was a problem in Deathwatch, but that was only because multiple attacks were treated like something that should be a special ability of the Assault Marine's (though I do realise the problem of making distinct "classes" for Space Marines).

Since my fiancee and a few friends I often play with dislike Space Marines (they find the whole concept tedious), but like the idea of playing a game where they can bring in the sort of feel from Commissar Cain and Gaunt's Ghosts, Only War will be a definite buy for me