Hmm... I am actually really quite intrigued by why you find "brotherhood" offensive. I think it is a cliche (Band of Brothers, Black Hawk Down and almost every other war film from the last 20 years that focusses on soldiers themselves), but I can't see why it is offensive.

"Dark Heresy never(in my opinion)....fit in this line of thinking. Civilians with little to no structure and cohesion (almost chaos itself) just going about nilly willy on planets like chickens without heads? It doesn't add up to the 'There is only War' that Warhammer 40K is based on. Dark, gritty, death."

- That's the exact reason why 1) it is the easiest and 2) the best of the various ideas.

Easiest because Dark Heresy is the closest to the traditional RPG PC party: a group of different characters thrown together for whatever reason to have adventures. OK, as written it does have its own slant on it, in that it is brutal, totally unheroic, and you have essentially been pressganged by a more than slightly sinister organisation, but it at least kind of fits that mold. Also, as the Inquisition is what it is (an independent organisation with a a massive and wide ranging mandate), it justifies much more player (and Gamesmaster) freedom. Almost any kind of game can be justified, and characters can be as curious and freethinking as they usually are, in a world which actively discourages it. Rogue Trader has some similarities due to the freedom that Rogue Traders are given with their mandate, but it is more limited due to the role they perform.

It is better because while the tagline is "there is only war", its not actually true. There is a little bit more going in the 40k setting than that, and DH gives a chance to explore that. If I want "only war" I can just play the tabletop game. Also, the other options are more restrictive, at least if you want to do the setting properly. RT isn't too bad, but Deathwatch is more restrictive. Yes, you don't just have to be blowing up aliens all the time. You can do intrigue, mystery etc, but what form and where it takes place is more limited and you have to be Space Marines... which in my mind (I know people will disagree) limits the roleplaying opportunities. Black Crusade... not keen myself, and the set up feels horribly contrived to me (and I don't regard Chaso as being terribly interesting to roleplay, at least in any way that can't be done equally well under Dark Heresy). Only War? A Guardsmen campaign is extremely limited. Too low level and strict to allow much in the way of intrigue, and players should be pretty much told what to do and then try to do it (most of them dying a hideous death in the process), at least if the game is going to be true to the setting. The very structured nature of the Guard means player freedom is much more difficult to justify. The individualistic, curious, rebellious nature of most PCs will either lead to player death (just as likely at the hands of a "friendly" Commissar as the enemy) or, for the "lucky" few, being recruited into the Inquisition, where such behaviour is often an asset (and therefore taking the character into the realms of Dark Heresy again).

I wish this was going to be compatible, but it isn't (aside from, maybe, Black Crusade). Deathwatch is just not compatible with anything due to the mess it is in. Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy use different rules, where Talents do different things, and there won't be Throne costs to make gear properly compatible with Dark Heresy (and the stats will be built with the Black Crusade/Deathwatch "optional" rules making them partially incompatible with other lines).

I think that the PCs will be forming a squad, with one char leading acting as sergeant. I think there will be missions, just like in Dark Heresy, but the missions will be different.

Keep in mind that war is not only about guns blazing. War is also strategy, politics, parley, faith, recon, espionage etc. The actual fighting is only a small part of it.

Dok Martin said:

You're probably right that the basic unit of a group of players will be a squad, with its assigned leader and that's a-okay. The mission system will probably be like that in Deathwatch, although toned down a bit for regular humans. And yes, war has many aspects, but saying that it'll only be a small part of the whole gaming experience? I think that pushes it a little bit. In the Warhammer 40K universe - which doesn't need any introduction here, I think - wars tend to be on such a large scale that the lives of a few Guardsmen is going to be totally insignificant.

Now, you also list a few things that happen during war. True, they do happen (maybe except for the parley, you can hardly negotiate with tyranids or orks), but at different levels. Strategy is not decided by regular grunts, politicking is for those in higher positions. As for the other tasks... that's going to cause another problem. Armies tend to have various roles and squads or larger units are put together accordingly. If you have an Only War party that consists of an Enginseer, a Recon specialist and a Heavy Weapons Guy, how are you going to justify sending them on specific missions? Or the GM will have to send all related units together just to keep the party in line?

The life of the Imperial Guard is very interesting to me, but I'm not convinced it can be successfully given the depth that it deserves.

I am gonna buy it. Just for the fluff. Dark Heresy & Deathwatch are my main games and I use all the other games to augment them. Some of the scource books i like others I deem useless. Therefore I am the one that makes the choice here. The 40k world has the potential to outlast generational fads such as the White Wolf Products.

This is not too much, if you don't want to play the IG, don't buy the book. If you think 4 games are enough, again - don't buy the book. There will be enough people that will buy it.
I have all the books for all the 40k RPGs because I like to read them and I like 40k. Since I have a family and a job I do not have much time to actually play the games (we play RT once a few months) but I'll still buy everything FFG will release and read it (although I don't have much time for reading either).
It's simple, the older you are the less time for a hobby (any hobby) you have (until retirement) but I still hope to find time to play the games with my sons in a couple of years (probably Deathwatch when they will be old enough).
I for my part like what FFG is doing and see no reason for them to switch to one sourcebook because frankly if it had all the information end equipment some of us consider basic it would have to have like 650 pages and some of you would still not be satisfied in its content. If they had released a 2nd edition of every game they have published so far I would still buy it to support them.
As far as the argument that FFG is putting too many product lines on the market, maybe for some it seems so, but a game (especially a core rulebook) about IG will sell like hot cakes and in my opinion will brother the fan base of 40k RPG players (and readers).

macd21 said:

All I'll say, is that I've been playing I've been playing WW for almost about 10 years now, and they've taken a real slump in recent years. Up until the new release lineup which just started, they only released about 5 books in like 2 years, and I mean REAL releases, not SAS adventures, or repackaging stuff in to the Patchwork Scroll (that said, new errata is ******* awesome, though Sidereals could still use improvment).

While FFG was going strong and steady the whole time up until recently, and even that slowdown (for some 40K lines anyway) can be explained away with the unveiling of Only War, and the simple reason that all focus was put on to that....

Now, to get to reading pages 5 and 6 of this thread.

Man, the "Don't like it don't buy it" argument is such a load- I don't understand how people justify using it so consistently.

I like it- I want to buy it: but I am paying 60$ and getting 26$'s worth of product and even then a LOT more work then I bargained for. Why should I keep shelling out 60$ after 60$ buying completely new "Core-standalone rules" when a similar result can be achieved by say, dropping the price on DH [Which has been out for YEARS Now, increasing its popularity again and marketing these Side-books at a lower price- thus attracting both Old and New buyers instead of alienating the old player-base.

What's next? "Ordo Xenos" Core Rulebook? What about that Mechanicus Core-rule book instead of a supplement? For those people that really like bureaucracy, the Admnistratum Core rulebook!

My gripe is the fact that old players and owners are being screwed over, ignored and made to pay a lot more for things that they already have just so they can enhance the setting of the original game. Because that's all this book does- it provides a new setting, a new perspective. The same exact way "Blood of Martyrs" massively enhanced an Ecclesiarchy Campaign and Book of Judgement massively enhanced an Adeptus Arbites Campaign and Radical's handbook massively enhanced a Radical's game.

Only War was supposed to massively enhance an Imperial Guard/War World campaign- for 26$. Instead, I am paying 60$ for... the trouble of having to convert yet another complete set of books to an older system... And some fluff that I likely won't even be able to use because it won't be set in the same sector? Who Knows! Overall, only the "How the Imperial Guard" Works chapter might be worth it- and 60$ for that... Count me out...

So instead of having a customer (Seeing as i've bought all of the other supplements and even some from DH and Rogue Trader) they've lost out. Alienating previous book owners instead of "putting out more corebooks that sell better."

Even though all of the themes in this game are explored in the other lines- Serving the Imperium agaisnt overwhelming odds both outside and within the imperium where you're considered dispensable? DH. Being at the edge of the universe on dangerous planet to try and make a name out of yourself in the midst of billions? Rogue Trader- Brotherhood, fighting horrendous Xenos forces on the battlefield as a squad for the Emperor? Death Watch. The horrors and evils of war and blood-shed? Black Crusade.

I am surprised so many people on these forums are excited about this and seemingly want to buy this because its fresh and new: they should know better and realize its been done before. Several times. And could have contributed to enhancing the feeling as a supplement (To any of the games! It even could have been a Death Watch supplement now that Black Crusade has marines and humans working together and Rogue Trader allows you to borrow an Imperial Guard Regiment)

Instead were just encouraging this kind of behavior: don't get wrong, I am all for supporting the writers- on the parts of the book that I haven't purchased two, and for people who have more then two rulebooks, three or four times already.

Double-post, apologies.

I can only say this so many times before I start to bore even myself:

You are jumping to conclusions about this book. Making wild claims that you're paying $60 for $26 worth of content is meaningless because you don't know what's in the book, and you haven't given FFG any time to do more previews. The character classes are not the same. The specific OW mechanics that go with the game are not the same as other games. It is a different game. It's not DH+.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

Just leave it be, HMBC... as demonstrated by the earliest posts on the Deathwatch and Black Crusade boards, the majority of posts in the first couple of months will be made by people who apparently are offended by the very notion of the game. Inevitably, the balance will change the closer we get to release, as people either get bored of complaining and return to other boards or are convinced by the idea and start speculating positively.

Fair enough.

*walks away*

...

(emphasis on quote is mine)

I don't get it either. How is the 'brotherhood' aspect offensive and only machismo? This totally baffles me. Role playing games are all about trying to experience situations you cant ever do....even if its only minor versions of the experience. This game looks to be based on the whole 'Band of Brothers' feel and I cant wait for it.
I can sorta understand a stance of 'this only makes war seem fun...so its wrong', but frankly if that's an issue then whoever is saying that is in the wrong place.

As for the too many books thing....well the only other one that really struck me was Deathwatch, but I dont always want to play super-soldier. Sometimes I want to play something akin to Gaunt's Ghosts.

Saldre said:

Saldre said:

Gotta disagree with you for reason's already stated. It also would not fit FFG's model to date. When they want to update the "Core" system; They don't keep releasing little snipits of Errata (No money there!) and they don't just release an Xth ed. and force you to rebuy the entire line (Thank God!). What they do is release a "New" setting with updated mechanics and new ideas. This allows those of us so inclined to backfit the new stuff into our existing games rather than trying to rework an entirely new game. (For those of us who watch the gaming bus.; We notice that WOC will be releasing a 5th ed. D&D because 4th is failing for exactly this reason!). Also; Using the method FFG is useing, It allows players to Crossover into the other lines with minimal difficulty. I have run a RT game that had DH characters in it (They were regular Voidsmen) with very little complications! It also allows Players and Gm's to completely ignore any parts of the setting they are not interested in. After all...40k is a vast setting with a wide variety of possibilities even if you are "just" playing humans. For those of you harping about Xenos; stand by! It would not surprise me at all if FFG released a book about roleplaying Xenos. This book WOULD probably be another "Core" book since it would by necessity require a whole new setting (The 40k setting is obviously NOT that cosmopolitan) and whole new series of advances for this races abilities! This would be true even if you stuck to (relatively) Humanocentric Aliens such as the Eldar or Tau!

People are very loyal to the 40K universe and they enjoy it. There are a number of collectors on this forum (myself included, my collection is here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc1XA83O8es Warhammer 40K and Fantasy Roleplay kick in around 10 mins, 40K Roleplay at 13:40 or so) who buy because it's another very attractively packaged 40K product. It's nice to own and to read, the books are full colour, good binding and high quality. We buy because we're loyal, we like the setting, we like the game mechanics and we have a good time with it. The problems are:

Most game systems support several settings. BRP, D&D etc all have multiple settings that are released with mechanics that setting in addition to the core rules. The 40K line reverses this and we have five game systems in just one setting.

To buy the new setting / fluff means buying the rules again. Saying 'you don't have to buy it' is a cop out. To get into the setting the buyer has to part with money to purchase the rules again just to get hold of the new mechanics and fluff that could be in a suppliment.

Fantasy Flight is competing with itself, just as TSR did before its demise due to mismanagement and their hefty returns bill sank them. This is just to many product lines in one setting, and it will cannibalise its own market - there are lessons in other companies, one already mentioned.

I feel that this is a deliberate 'they'll all buy it anyway' play on the collectors and players because it's a demonstrably loyal customer base. Anyone who watches the video link will see I have around $1,500 of 40K sat on my shelf, but at this point I'd be happy to buy it again as a second edition because the mechanics in each system don't translate well to each other, and that's a real shame. They've already been mentioned in this thread, but White Wolf had a similar problem with the Old World of Darkness and they did the right thing by having a single core book and then let the players choose the setting they wanted to play in without buying the rules so many times over. It may not have met with success with them in the way the Old World of Darkness was a success, but that's not to say that FFG won't succeed.

In short: New edition of unified rules needed, followed by core books for different aspects of the game that use the new edition as the engine. One bestiary, one armaments, one ships and one vehicles book for the whole line. Release splats for chapters, chaos, heretics, radicals and even go so far as to do Print on Demand if that's what's needed. This is a luxury product line in the RPG world, and that doens't have to be sacrificed. FFG we love you and we love 40K, but this isn't a model of business that keeps us coming back for more when we can't afford to keep coming back for more! I own 30 FFG games or thereabouts and I'm a fanboy of the company as a whole, but this is one game I'm not going to buy for all of the above reasons

I am not talking out of my behind here- even though I am guessing at the content, I believe I am making an educated Guess based on what a) YOU"VE been saying [This is going to full up the "new rules"] AND based on an already established pattern confirmed by solid evidence. Four books following the EXACT same pattern. You want to tell me the fifth one is going to be different?

We know this book is going to spend time explaining wounds again, same with skills & talents and how combat works.

I am not complaining about the game, the idea of the game, the fact that this game exists or anything like that. What bothers me is the fact that a DH supplement was abandoned in favor of a Core-book that frankly seems unnecessary because it only adds a degree of separation. In no way am I berating your work, or others, on the new and interesting parts of Only War. I am lamenting the other, superfluous and repetitive parts that are just going to mean more work when I try to integrate the books content into my current adventure.

But, seeing as the discussion has ground to a half because you've left- I do believe I am going to stop talking about this as well and wait and see what new, innovative ideas this book brings to the table that others haven't- and what its going to convince me that Its worth spending 60$ on so that I can introduce and expand the Imperial Guard in my Dark Heresy Campaign that's happening in the Calaxis Sector [because we really only have time to play ONE Rpg over here- not five.]

Edit- Man, Beowulf, you are my hero! You said exactly what I wanted to say, but said it so well and so nicely, whereas I've been rambling for dozens and dozens of posts.

Saldre said:

Ha, ha, thank you I love the 40K setting and I've been playing in it since the original release of Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader back in the late 80's. I had that book since the day it was released in hardback and I still have the cut out paper counters that represented the space marines and the orks It's fantastic, but of late I think a distanced, objective view should lead to the next step with the 40K rulesets, but maybe Games Workshop won't allow the redevelopment of the mechanics in the agreement? There may be obstacles we don't know about to a second edtion, and if there are obstacles they're causing issues for the current edition of the ruleset(s).

The fluff in each book so far has been second to none, but the rules are spread out over so many rulebooks and suppliments it's hard to remember where they might be sometimes. To be honest, I can't remember all of the rules across all of the books, my brain can't hold it all in and I need to be able to refer to the source. It has to be put in one place - a template that the setting / character expansions can sit on. Doing it that way means that the players can use the same mechanics across their Space Marine game and their Dark Heresy game etc with fewer translation issues.

Ease of play will bring in more players - who would want to be a new GM in the 40K universe now? If I were new to it I'd look at all of those books and panic! If I could pick up the book I know to start with and find out about the setting I can then choose the suppliments I want to run thereafter. A new edition solves a lot of problems, but can it happen? Over to FFG's and GW....

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Guys I get that you are most likely very emotionally invested in work you may have done for Only War. I look for your posts on the forums. I find your comments well balanced, insiteful and inteligent. I have enjoyed all the publications you are associated with.

I love Warhammer. FRP, 40k, tabletop, novels, games, etc.i have been for over 20 years. i am so super made up we have a 40k rpg line. The last couple of core books have been great and i am sure this one will be awesome, that is why i am going to buy it. But the problem is two fold.

1) Only war was billed as a Supplement to DH.

2) We, the paying customer community, "fear" a cut and paste job on the bulk of the rules.

That said i think the new stuff will be great.

i am sure the rule changes will be great too. but much will be rehash

The points I made are down to a genuine love of 40k rpg, it is that love that makes us (the paying community) feel vulnerable to exploitation with money making core books. We want to see cheaper support for what we have invested in. Dont get me wrong, I would be first in line for an eldar core book or even better a mechanicum core book but these two points combined make us feel, or atleast me, that there is the hint of exploitation. I am a business man and i would do that if i though i could get away with it (to a point)

The support for DH has waned recently and my personal investment in that line is complete. I wanted more diversity for DH even if the systems a bit out of shape and the newer systems are improving that all the time.

I know this will be awesome, but like a lover who is jealous because their partner is flirting too much, i feel vulnerable. Probably like many who will buy the book wondering if it is awesome as we will hope it will be....

+2 [On yet another perfect post above this one.]

Should really have let the experts do the talking here. Than again, if you don`t speak up, no one`s going to hear. Strength in numbers, eh? Imperial Creed- and Imperial Guard Motto.

beowulf101 said:

Yes, DnD has multiple settings with the same core. And each setting gets about 3 books before they move on to the next - a generic setting book, a players guide and maybe a monster book. They'll usually get a crappy adventure as well.

BRP? Barely a blip on the radar. GURPS has almost ceased to exist. Altogether there are a tiny handful of games out there that produce more than a book or two a year for a setting. The model you are advocating just does not work in the current market.

FFG's model may be annoying, but it gets us more support for each setting than we would otherwise. I'd much rather each get real support than one or two supplements.

beowulf101 said:

I'd advise you to do the same. Again: You clearly have no idea what's been going on at CCP.

Musclewizard said:

There is currently some speculation as to the nature of the licence. See, it has to have an expiry date, at which point the two would presumably enter into negotiations for an extension. 5 years is a typical length for such licences.

While GW would probably be fairly happy to allow FFG to keep the licence for the right price, there's a question as to whether FFG would want it. The licence isn't nearly as valuable now as it was when they first bought it as most of the profit has been wrung from it. They may be more inclined to ditch it and move on to something else. The Star Wars licence is considered by some as a move in that direction - assuming they started on the SW RPG when they got the licence then it should be ready for Gencon 2014.

This also impacts the chances for a 2nd edition. There's no way FFG will release a new edition until after a new licence agreement has been signed - they won't even start working on one. It's also quite possible that GW wouldn't let them release one. It makes the licence negotiation difficult for both parties.

macd21 said:

You have got to be joking You're one of those "I have to have the last word, even if I know I've been caught bullsh*tting on an Internet forum to a complete stranger in front of the whole world" Internet trolls aren't you?

Do carry on, you're amusing me and probably a few others too. If you've got any more *snorts*, please wipe your nose afterwards, you're making a mess of the thread.

I'm worried that this represents a business strategy by FFG of flooding the market with 'new' games (with largely cut-and-paste rules, repeated over and over to bulk out the rulebooks and thus raise cover price) until the market collapses, while their existing games are allowed to wither on the vine with little or no support...

I've read through this whole topic and an old adage came into my mind:
"He who pays the piper, calls the tune."
In this case the piper plays at his own whim, forgetting that people vote with their wallets. And as long RPGs stay in the vanity press area this will always be the case. The State of WW/CCP aside, they are earning a pretty penny on the whole PoD switch (I know, I've facilitated massive buying sprees for my WoD group) and their Kickstarter for V20 has shown that they can develop a system, risk free, by allowing the fans to pay for it in advance. And let's not forget that recently Rich Burlew received $1.2 million for the reprint of the Order of the Stick comics when he asked for $60K, showing that Kickstarters are the future of development for niche areas. Going out on a limb and throwing a new system out is a risky move.

I can't really say if OW will be successful. I just hope FFG won't try to push out a separate system for the Mechanicus.

from france

wasn't it suppose to be part of the dark heresy game. in the catalogue of 2011 it was presented as ex tension not as a stand alone. will it be compatible at least with dark heresy?

i am surprised of this. will they do the same with the mechanicus? does this means that soldier and mechanicus wont be include in dh in a "book of judgement" like