beowulf101 said:

Are the rules in each book built on rules from previous books? Or are they mostly the same rules just re-printed over and over? Did FFG think that customers would just buy one book and not all four or five books? It does seem weird if there is no FFG Warhammer core rulebook like nearly all RPGs have for their systems. Maybe FFG is publishing the books this way (selling rulebooks as they come up with rules) because producing one big expensive core rule book (with complete rules) without any expansion books would not have sold as many copies?

beowulf101 said:

No, I'm participating in a conversation on the internet. That's what people on the internet do. You made a statement about WW to support your arguement that was factually untrue. It was, in fact, complete nonsense and using it to support your position weakened it. You're working with half-truths and assumptions about what they've been doing and the position they are in which has led you to misinterpret what's been happening over there.

Here's the thing - I don't give a crap about WW. I'm not a WW fanboy. But I did watch their change from traditional RPG publisher to PoD/PDF publisher with interest. And I can tell you that it's been a success and has placed them in a very good position in the market. They are once again one of the strongest players in the industry. That isn't to say they don't have problems - but those problems were caused by CCP screwing up, not WW. WW is the one part of the company that's been consistently doing well, but it's too small to make up for CCP's screw-ups with EVE, Dust and the WoD MMO.

FFG really REALLY need to up their game.

Only War doesn't bother but for the fact that I know it will be chock full of mistakes and errors, will not be as compatible with the other games as it should be and probably won't have enough vehicle rules.

FFG hasn't learned anything, at all. In many ways, while their fluff and setting ideas are really good, they are terrible at designing rules. They are too quick tp pump out far too much product - across the board - and are far too slow to listen to criticism, never mind act on it. I'm writing this in full knowledge it will not be read by any FFG staffer. They spend too much time making fancy videos for their boardgames, pumping out product and ignoring core issues. For example, we have rules that include a skill for driving/piloting vehciles so how do i resolve a chase between a heretic on a bike and a dark eldar on one of their jetbike things? What use is infamy if the player wants a vehicle and there are simply no stats available for him?

FFG have got to wake their ideas up. 5 game lines is clearly far beyond their ability to cope with; we STILL have no errata for BC. That's absolutely 100% inexcusable. What are they doing? We are paying them for these books; they aren't provided 'gratis'. Stop adding to schedules you can't cope with before you even get the fundamentals working. At that point I will welcome Only War. I've emailed them about these issues and all I get told is 'only war will be awesome, thanks bye'.

There's only so much goodwill a company can get by on and FFG are dangerously close to running out.

macd21 said:

GURPS ceased to exist? Seems to have a fairly healthy community following it and regular releases for it (even if most are PDF only). Yes, it doesn't compete with some other games in volume, but I wouldn't say it is anywhere near non-existent.

"While GW would probably be fairly happy to allow FFG to keep the licence for the right price, there's a question as to whether FFG would want it. The licence isn't nearly as valuable now as it was when they first bought it as most of the profit has been wrung from it. They may be more inclined to ditch it and move on to something else. The Star Wars licence is considered by some as a move in that direction - assuming they started on the SW RPG when they got the licence then it should be ready for Gencon 2014."

1) I expect we would see a Star Wars RPG being released next year, if at all possible. Waiting nearly 3 years to release it after getting the license seems rediculous.

2) Seeing as there are rumours that FFG is actually trying to buy out GW (and it is by far the most successful of their RPG lines), I don't see them giving up on the license any time soon (unless GW is demands far too much for it), and GW will want to continue the deal as pretty much their entire profit at the moment is the licence fees from FFG and Relic.

borithan said:

borithan said:

So You are basically saying that GW is falsifying financial reports and their press statements about their financial situation are a lie?

http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2011-12-Press-statement.pdf

Could you give us some more information on that or reveal the source of your wisdom?

Tequila said:

Just laughing to myself, good link post! Propaganda vs what's really happening in a company are not the same thing, but there are so many Internet trolls out there that will argue they're right and you / the facts / the report must be wrong.,.,

Gave my breakfast a smiling start

Ok, before I somehow end up getting myself in some sort of legal trouble, these are rumours (I was explicit about the FFG looking to acquire GW was a rumour, but should have been clearer on the profit one), picked up from chatting to owners of some game shops. I am quite probably wrong. And looking at that statement, it looks like at least on the profit thing I am (presuming that the royalty income accounts for the stuff from FFG and Relic).

Though my belief that neither FFG or GW are likely to want to see an end to the liscence agreement stands. Neither look like they would benefit from an end to it (so the only way I could see there being lack of agreement would be if GW killed the Golden Goose by demanding far too much).

I think having another core RPG is fine. Although I was concerned that it might be a bit too close to what Deathwatch is all about I still think it has plenty to offer by itself. The first thing I thought about was the fact the party we're going right down to the bottom of the food chain. In Deathwatch you're a Sapce Marine, in Rogue Trader you have your own spaceship and even in Dark Heresy you're working for the Inquisition. In Only War everybody from your commanding officer up doesn't give a **** whether you live or die and the only thing between you and galaxy of horrible things is a lazgun and the lazguns your mates are carrying.

When I saw Only War I instantly thought of stuff like Aliens. You end up going on what seems to be a cake run and end up facing off against a crazy alien menace. You're outnumbered, half your platoon is dead, your commanding officer turns out to be completely incompetent, the High command refuse to send any re-enforcements and the Inquisitorial agent who came along for the rides wants you to capture one of these things alive and woe betide you not following his instructions.

Kahadras

I think that they started out with making this a DH supplement. But then some bright eyed developer was telling them about feature X that really should be in OW. Another Developer came with feature Y. Both lovely feature that would really improve the feeling. Then another developer sighed and said, shame that we cannot use the BC system for this. The developers looked to each other and decided to talk to their boss an then OW the new game was born. Different enough from all the earlier games that it needed its own ruleset that is similar but not the same as its predecessors.

Radwraith said:

I think I said that.

Kahadras said:

Like!

I would love a second edition because I would not buy it. It would end the production of all the old stuff and I would be able to complete my collection. I would just run the old stuff and hope that prices drop on the old stuff and I would pick it up on ebay. I believe a second ed would kill the game.

Maese Mateo said:

Seconded, or whatever by now, I do love me some L5R mass combat system.

lurkeroutthere said:

I don't like mass combat. It's just too **** abstract. Can't see how this has anything to do with roleplaying.

Dok Martin said:

The L5R system is not that abstract. It allows PCs that are not commanding armies the opportunity to take part in a battle without having nothing to do. It provides a list of random events and opportunities during a battle, which are then played using the normal combat rules. Perhaps your squad sees a chance to sieze an important position, or an enemy tank rolls towards the characters position. These situations are snapshots of the larger battle (which may be subject to the GMs whims or to the dice).

Dok Martin said:

With a percentile system that is bogged down with Penetration vs Armor, followed by TB, and hit location, multiple hit allocation etc., I think having an abstract system that takes the players actions into account during the zoomed in moments as Nifoc just mentioned might be the only way to go. Or buy some IG minis, and Ork minis, as well as GW's CRB and Codexes for the respective armies, but that's GW's game, isn't it? I think OW will allow for the opportunity to be involved in and alter the course of wide sweeping battles.

Having an abstract system that helps facilitate the tides of battle and potentially the outcome of war (does war ever really end in 40k?) takes away from roleplaying about as much as having rules for combat, IMO. Sit around a table with some friends, talk in a funny voice or with certain gestures and/or body language and you can roleplay. Throw in some dice and paper with stats, books with charts, toss in some IG minis and you can still roleplay, you just need to make it happen.

Perhaps you're worried that a mass combat system might have the PCs take a backseat to what the war does. I hope it won't, because I know the designers could come up with something that is much more responsive. I'd love to see a Quartermaster character able to acquire better armament for the troops or better food that would make the troops more hale, and have him make as much change on the battle as Scout character who could bring intel on the enemy, or a Chimera driver or Sentinel operator or what have you.

Combat is generally the aspect of my campaigns that eats the most time. It makes sense for in-game situations, especially in a warzone, but frankly I'd at least consider any move to cut down or avoid the mountain of dice-rolling that simulating a full battle would take without totally handwaving away the effects.

On a more general note, more content and support for the 40krpg line is better than less. I might quibble about the specifics but any support is material I can potentially use for any of the games. 2nd edition can wait.

Black Crusade was already One Too Many IMO, which is why I didn't buy it. I've already bought the base rules and setting info three times in DH, RT, and DW, I don't need to or want to buy them again!

I was estatic when Only War was anounced, I have always loved the Imp. Guard and played a Guardsman in our TT group. I've had a copy on pre-order at my local game store since they first started accepting them. But that was when it was an expansion to DH, not a bloated "standalone". I've canceled it now. As much as I may want the half the book focused on the guard, I'm not paying a 4th time for the same basic rules AGAIN!

beowulf101 said:

Since most of the commentary in here merely echos this idea or is a fig leaf masking (or attempting to justify) this idea, I'm going to quote this and go on to my point.

This just boils down to opinion.

I'm guessing that 'Only War' is going to be my favorite release to date, right after Rogue Trader.

Where on the other hand, I have about as much interest in previous titles like Black Crusade or an alternate release such as 'Eldar-The Bunch of Aloof Xeno Bastards' or 'Mechanicus- Now I Can Do My Day Job on the Weekends,' as I do in My Little Pony- Every Little Girl's Dreams Come True.

That does't invalidate your love of the Eldar. I'm glad you love the Eldar (or Your Day Job - the RPG, or whatever). Or that you prefer the already existing game lines and want to see more work for those. More power to you. But I want you, and all the other folks like you to recognize that JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT EXCITED ABOUT ONLY WAR DOESN'T MEAN ITS FILLED WITH SUCK AND DUMB. I almost had a nerdgasm when I saw the post on the ffg front page.

You are not the only person in the universe. Nor does the universe revolve around you. Just because Only War is at the very bottom of your list doesn't mean that it's not at the top of somebody else's.

I don't understand why people feel it necisary to **** on somebody else's parade.

If you don't want a product? That's fine. But let the rest of us enjoy it in peace.

I'm not even going to talk about the rampant an unfair assumptions already being made about what the game will and will not be. Its not even out yet. And I don't want to give myself an aneurysm of anger.

Blizzard36 said:

You realise that the basic rules in Black Crusade differ in numerous, significant ways from the rules in previous Core Rulebooks - it isn't a pure repeat of the previous core rules.

So, the point at which you decided "no more" was the point at which the core rules you were fed up of buying repeatedly changed...

Kahadras said:

So basically, Deathwatch. Just because you're alot stronger and higher up the food chain doesn't mean you're not toast.

LegendofOld said:

I agree completely, it is opinion. I don't think you wrote this specifically at myself as I didn't mention Eldar or that the book would be full of Suck and Dumb etc. I'd very much like to see the Eldar expanded upon as a supplement and the Mechanicus as well. Some really good thoughts have come out of this thread from several camps of thought. The bottom line of the conversations is that everyone cares about the 40K setting and how it's presented and put together for purchase. It's not a criticism of the work that's gone into the book or the effort, but it is a criticism of the way the game is being released and I think it's a valid one. Not all criticism is bad, I think many of the things that have been said have needed to be said. We may all agree and disagree, but a company becomes better for taking ideas on board or not - and unless we ALL say what our thoughts are FFG can't do that, so kudos to everyone who's taken part in this discussion.

@Eddie

So basically, Deathwatch. Just because you're alot stronger and higher up the food chain doesn't mean you're not toast.

Deathwatch certainly can be played that way. Hell, I'm sure I can turn D&D 4e into a Survival Horror game. However, neither game is meant for this application.
Deathwatch is a game of larger-than-life protagonists who are expected to beat all odds, because galaxy-wide, there's only a million of them and they regularly change the outcomes of wars. Any high command will know exactly what they're up to because they're the most expensive ground assets that the Imperium has apart from Titan Legions.
Playing the environment of these superhuman beings with the same "It's not like we don't have billions more of them" attitude as a guard campaign really doesn't do them justice.

Blood Pact said:

Blood Pact said:

Howdy!

All RPG companies have taken it in the keister - first CCGs smacked them around in the 90s and then MMOs have been beating them up over the last decade. Fewer comic and game stores means fewer opportunities to see and recruit new players (and sell the games via traditional routes). The comic and game stores that have survived stock fewer and fewer tabletop RPGs. Ugly, vicious circle.

WW was *huge* in the 90s. Much like SJG with GURPS, the often ended up competing with themselves because they HAD to publish a new game every year and HAD to publish several supps a MONTH. The World of Darkness suffered from fatigue and flagging interest, so they rebooted it in 2004 (a GREAT decision) and it has done well for them, but they would NEVER reach their heights of the 90s. CCP purchased them around 2008, and views them as an IP generator for licenses and their (eventual) MMO - anything else is gravy. The Print on Demand move was a great idea - saves their money and resources and maximizes profits. They use Kickstarter on projects that are viewed as risky or where they do not want to put immediate resources. HOWEVER, they are now just an IP wing of CCP, not an independent game company relying on game sales.

They rely mostly on freelancers (smart), but have limited office resources (due to focus on the MMO). Heck, their World of Darkness convention which ran in 2010 and 2011 hasn't even been discussed this year to their fans, so no con support there for 2012. At GenCon, they are represented (well) by DriveThruRPG, which has a small but good footprint. In 2010, their booth was just a geeky goth bar to flog their WoD convention (which may have now ended). In short, WW is alive and "well", but really isn't a fully functioning independent game company. Which is OK.

FFG is a different beast. This *is* their time. The are a HUGE gaming juggernaught, with impressive sales and an impressive footprint. They have had a huge presence at GenCon for the last 5 years, and last year, they were THE largest booth and gaming area in the dealer's hall. Bigger that Wizards of the Coast by FAR.

FFG makes a lot of moolah off of the 40k line, but it is also expensive to produce (between publishing and licensing). They pay GW quite a bit, and GW is often NOT the easiest company to get along with professionally (speaking from personal experience...). HOWEVER, GW makes a *mint* from licensing, and they would be FOOLS to mess with that. GW has been doing well after some pretty sever restructuring (laying off 30-50% of its sales force, changing from pewter to resin/plastic, raising prcies). GW has turned a profit for the last several years based primarily on price increases and licensing revenues.

I would argue that FFG may fall into the trap of competing with itself (too many core games/supps) or may end up paying too much for publishing and licensing. Hasn't happened yet, though. The 40K licenses is HUGE, has great cross-over (miniatures, computer games, novels, etc), and should have longevity. I would think that they could afford to support 5-6 "core" games and release material for them all. As it is, each of the 4 game lines gets 2-3 books a year, which isn't bad (you don't have to get them all, just the ones that affect your game or grab your interest). I think releasing more PDFs on their site would be smart (those design-an-adventure contests were GREAT), and some print-on-demand stuff would work well. But we have NO idea what the license stipulates.

I do not think 'Only War' was the smartest move, though, for a core game. I would have argued for an Eldar book (you cannot play them as PCs currently, and you could easily publish 8-12 books supporting the core game). I think 'Only War' would have worked better as several supps for DH, preferably after a DH 2nd Edition...

My 2-cents.

Cheers,

Ken