Now we're on a new forum I figure it's a good idea to raise once again the problems the decisions that FFG have made have caused.

At the beginning of the year I took an interest in the AGOT LCG and following the advice given by more experienced players on the old forums I bought up cards from ITE, AHoTh, AHoTa & FKE, along with ITE and FKE starters and ITE Legacy Packs on the assumption that I could use these cards to supplement the new Core Set when it came out.

There's no existing meta around here and I built a number of decks with the cards I had to try and get my friends interested in playing and getting their own cards. I also signed for the Night's Watch as I planned to try and push the game once the Core Set was here to try an establish a local meta.

However, on the eve of the release of the Core Set I find out that I have now invested over £100 in cards I cannot use. This quite frankly stinks, and all my enthusiasm for trying to invest in and promote the game has evaporated.

I wonder if I'm the only person in this situation? Assuming I'm not, I wonder what other people in this situation think? I guess we're powerless to change FFG's decisions and so the only choice we're left with is to sell the cards we have (at a loss) and go play some other game instead?

It's not just new players who feel "burned" by this decision. Older players payed large amounts of money into the game under the old CCG system as well. But I personally don't feel like the new boards is the place to carry on this discussion. Free speech and all that, but maybe we should move on positively with the new boards. Just my current thought on the topic.

I'm a new player, and as I've made bad experience with CCGs (The Spoils anyone?), I was very happy about the LCG decision. For the new players who bought the old cards: You can always play with these cards, maybe not in a tournament, but you can play with them... As I've now my core set (maybe a sceond later this year), I'm eagerly waiting for the new chapter packs.

Ouch about that spoils bit... but you can always play with your cards! maybe not in a tournament but...

But yeah. I don't know what kind of freedom you have as Night's watch, but what's to stop you from going ahead and allowing the use of those older cards, and still run an 'official' tournament? SHHH don't tell anyone I told you.

*the poster of this post is not responsible and does not officially espouse or do any of the things mentioned in the content of the post*

if all persons agree, why not play with the cards? I think you play more with friends then playing in official tournaments. As long as the cards are not burned...

jogo said:

If I was playing in an existing meta where we all had equivalent card pools then this would be ok. However, I'm the only guy who's picked up any cards at all so far. You're right in that we could just play with my decks as they are for fun, but then that would mean *not* buying any new cards. If I'm going to encourage anyone else I know to buy new cards, or I want to invite other players from all around to come to tournaments then what am I to do? I should force everyone to play in a non-standard environment just to stop me personally from being screwed over? I should make new players buy old cards just to establish some form of new balance? Unfortunately these really aren't options. If I could find someone who wanted to buy my older cards for close to what I paid for them then I could re-invest in Core Sets and Chapter Packs instead, but that clearly isn't ever going to happen. I'm back to the fact that I've been burned, and dozens of people I know aren't going to be investing in the game as a result.

also, playing casually with the older cards lets you get used to mroe aspects of the game and deminons of the cards that you might not always see right away (more cards to tinker with = more epxerience) and then when you do go to a LCG format tourney you will have a better graps of the game overall and might try to recreate some of the things you learned or will just be on a closer level to those there that have been playing for a long time under a lot of different card sets.

mikelosaurus said:

You are clearly not the only person who feels that way.

Personally i think that some of the long time players feel even more burned in a double-ended way. On the one hand you loose the possibility to officially play the standard format and it becomes harder that way to organize tournaments in that format. And on the other hand i just feel a little bit guilty for the situation of new players being one of this long time players which were constantly advising new players to pick up some of the ITE or 5KE products.

As an older player, yes, I felt burned and thought it was a bad idea. About the best thing I can do now is hope very very hard that we can convince FFG that some sort of Legacy Pack type expansion to the game with reprints from the ITE and 5KE eras.

From the new player perspective though, I can see it's probably good for brand new people just starting this winter. The biggest problem is any of the new players that started between GenCon and now. At GenCon they likely purchased the Core set and some older cards with the assumption that they wouldn't be hit by rotation. Or especially if they purcahsed cards between GenCon and this last announcement under the previous announcement that the Standard format would continue as previously put forth. These players, such as yourself, Mikelosaurus, have every right to feel needlessly spurned by the company.

your argument that "new players being forced to track down old cards to compete with me" does not compute.

I mean imagine if the old stuff were legal this entire time. You have this massive collection (presumedly) with which you can play, and new players would have ... what... whatever they buy as well. Either way, if you're going to be playing these super sweet decks that are really good cause you have many cards and they are just starting off, they're still going to have to go out and buy some more cards.

The fact that one format for this game is to be played with just new stuff from now on changes nothing about your problem, as presented. There is no reason that you have presented preventing your group from playing with what you have AND the new stuff. And who is to say that the new stuff when combined (after a few chapter packs are released) couldn't BEAT decks with older cards in them?

But in general... buyer be wary of ALL TCGs. The only reason anyone gets burned in a TCG is because they suddenly start playing with these new conditions and rules in their heads... such as "OMG I have to do what the gaming company wants me to do with these cards (as in not play with certain cards because the company tells them to for only the official tournaments)" amongst other things...

its a game. It plays well with old, new, or a combination of them. Put some cards together, don't pwn noobs (your future potential playerbase), and if you want, slowly phase in competetive play if you've felt you guys want a change of pace / challenge.

>>>I mean imagine if the old stuff were legal this entire time. You have this massive collection (presumedly) with which you can play, and new players would have ... what... whatever they buy as well. Either way, if you're going to be playing these super sweet decks that are really good cause you have many cards and they are just starting off, they're still going to have to go out and buy some more cards.

I'm not sure that you fully understand the dilemma. The question of which 'more cards' to buy is crucial. If 5KE was still legal then buying more 5KE is a legiitimate consideration. The LCG-only format says that older cards are not legal. On this basis, why would players want to buy backwards? On the flip side, how can it be fair for me to use the ITE/5KE cards I bought when the LCG-only card pool is currently so small?

>>>The fact that one format for this game is to be played with just new stuff from now on changes nothing about your problem, as presented. There is no reason that you have presented preventing your group from playing with what you have AND the new stuff.

Again you're not really listening. There is no existing meta, no existing group. The problem is whether I should still try and start a group when I just wasted so much money on cards that I can't use fairly with that group.

>>>And who is to say that the new stuff when combined (after a few chapter packs are released) couldn't BEAT decks with older cards in them?

The LCG-only card pool is currently so small that it will be quite some time before an LCG-only deck would be competitive with a Classic or Legacy deck. I'd love to see this happen, and I am sure that it will eventually, but we're a year or two away from that situation at least I think.

>>>its a game. It plays well with old, new, or a combination of them. Put some cards together, don't pwn noobs (your future potential playerbase), and if you want, slowly phase in competetive play if you've felt you guys want a change of pace / challenge

Competitive play implies sticking to the rules, which in turn implies still not using the cards I bought.

Yay, more complaining. ^^

Well, I too bought a ton of ITE and 5KE stuff and I will still be using it. I wouldn´t have bought that if I didn´t even have a group to play with.

What you should do: Start a group and talk to them what they want to do. If they go for the fixed stuff only, then why not? You cans till use the old cards for casual.

I bought some old stuff too...

I got it "the day before" the announcement of the LCG stuff...

In my meta we're 3 or 4 players...We'll play both Standard and LCG, simply because we can if we want.

Lots of guys here in Italy are going to keep standard alive and maybe our national league will be Standard for the next X years...

then...

You do not have to bother about sanctioned play rules if you're not going to do it.

You can still use old stuff in Classic Highlander format...

We're not FORCED to play LCG. We do are if we play in a sanctioned tournament. But if you do like to organize a local league or local tournaments or just casual play, you're not burned.

On the other hand...If you wanna follow the LCG format, just quit investing on old stuff and re-invest the money you save in new stuff.

I do understand your concerns (cause I felt in this way too) but it's just a matter of will.

Unfortunately, OP, I guess I don't understand what your dilema is...

This is what I would do in your situation (as I, too, have a bunch of 5KE I got last year at Gencon helping out FFG demo the game as part of my unsuccesful second interview):

"New players HEY yeah, lets play with the core set to show you how to play the game! Sweet! Oh yeah, these are cards that were released prior to the core set. From now on "official tournament play" will support a format that only includes cards from the core set and onwards, but alternative ways to play would be to use some of these cards from its CCG days! Here! Have a few dozen of my extra commons and uncommons! I'm going to be holding a tournament on Dec 20th! Show up and bring a deck, and we'll make sure we play cards and have a good time and get some prizes for doing so! WOO!"

If 'other' players from other playgroups show up... how likely is that? ... tell them your situation and maybe they'll understand, you know? For the spirit of building a new playgroup maybe they'll go ahead and play the format that you guys want to play...

I mean... new players are fragile. Here's MY dilema with new players whether its a core set + old stuff not being legal or not! (I mean UFS has a block format system where some things aren't legal)

I have all of these old cards. Often I demo using them and then give it to them. Then they finally buy some cards and start participating in tournaments. EVERY other day someone's got a card in their deck that was banned or from an old set and isn't legal anymore... and beyond that these new players are getting TOTALLY OWNED by other players, if the other players go all gung-ho on them, forcing these guys to go out and buy tons of cards.

So i guess if the new players are going out and buying new cards anyhow, whats a few packs from older sets (if they are legal in your format...) really going to matter? They don't HAVE to go out and buy those though. They can certainly play with the core set and maybe some borrowed commons and uncommons from old stuff. It really isn't a big of a deal as you're making it out to be and you can definitly work around it. YES its another barrier to getting people in to the game FOR OFFICIAL COMPETETIVE TOURNAMENTS but why do you even need to enforce that, and why should you be worried about them 'having to go out and buy older cards' if all they know is 'core set, 5KE, ITE legal' game play?

mikelosaurus said:

I get that there is no reason to buy backwards. That's probably even a primary reason FFG went with the decision they did - so that new players aren't stuck NEEDING to buy backwards into a non-fixed card pool to keep up with veterans. And I get that if you do put forth the full effort into building a play group, it is unfair for you to use the "backwards" cards you already bought. If the Core Set and the LCG bring as many mew people into the organized play program as FFG seems to anticipate, it's a dilemma shared by everyone who has ITE and 5KE cards.

What I don't get it why this is a problem for whether or not you should still try to start a play group in the first place. Either you enjoy the game and want to get a bunch of people to play it with you, or you don't. I see that you have spent a lot of money on cards that now have no appeal to the people you would try to get into the game. But (and this is a question I have extended to veterans as well) how does the tournament format decision make it harder to start a play group? Seems like not needing to buy backwards would be a draw for some of the people you would be trying to recruit.

I guess it all depends on what the sudden change in anticipated tournament formats means to you. If it makes you question FFG's desire and/or ability to support this game on a competitive level with an organized play program, essentially casting doubt over the game's longevity, then yeah, you probably shouldn't try to start a new group. If it ticks you off on a personal level that you have all these cards with limited organized play value after buying and promoting them in good faith but you still enjoy playing the game itself (which is where I am personally, BTW), then like the rest of us, get over it and see what you can do moving forward.

There is a touch of a disconnect here, fueld I'm guessing my by knee-jerk emotional action than intentional obfuscation. Those older cards you bought were going to be rotated anyway. I'm betting you were told that when you were told what sets to buy. Pretty much every thread on the old board from a new player wanting to jump in was told that WED had just rotated, ITE was next on the block and would only be around until the Summer and that 5KE was a truncated Block with it's last two sets done as Chapter Packs. That if you were planning on playing in big tournaments ITE made sense, but if you were just starting up with friends or were going to ease your way into it that focusing on 5KE and th eChapter Packs made the most sense.

If any of us failed to say this in some fashion it is almost as much our bad as it is FFG's. You lose out on 6-8 months of extra cards... but if you were going to try and get new players to pick up the game when the CS was released, they should have been advised to buy 5KE and the CP's exclusively and maybe pick up a few of the staple singles form ITE. IOW the rotation policy shift really wouldn't have affected them in any meaningful way anyway.

The real question is what are you going to do with your ITE and 5KE? I'd keep playing with them. By the time you have enough people in your meta that your cards are really an unbalancing force in every game there will be enough CPs out that you should be able to cull the outdated cards.

Depending on whether you as a group or individually plan on competing competitively you may never have to rotate your old cards and you can encourage your newer players to buy what ever cards from whatever sets they choose and just play classic. Then again FFG has said (hopefully with no fingers crossed) that they will support a Legacy format, which is all sets but no more than a single card. Make that your metas focus for tourney play, the new guys should be able to buy older cards on the cheap, and reducing the number to one makes it MUCH easier on them, limits your advantage for having bought in more earlier, but still lets you use your power rares.

This probably came off a little harsh, it wasn't meant to, I just wanted to point out that change was coming on a predictable schedule, which was accelerated, unpredictably, but does not make your cards worthless, it just means rethinking in what fashion you will participate. I wish you the best of luck no matter what your decision.

mikelosaurus said:

i would agree with you here if legacy wasn't highlander.

As an example: the last melee game i played (last wednesday) had 5 people in it with 3 different deck 'formats'. There were 2 legacy format decks (1 martell, 1 stark War of the Five Kings), 1 classic no official format deck (Targ) and 2 LCG decks (bara and stark). The final standings were Stark Legacy, Stark LCG, Bara LCG, Targ, Martell legacy. The stark and bara decks could easily have won the turn the Stark legacy deck did and the deciding facotr was a 5 initiative plot verse a 4 intiative plot. As a side note it was really, really fun to pass around The Reach with a couple of Support of the Kingdoms.

mikelosaurus said:

Only over a 100 pounds? That´s peanuts compared to what I´ve spent on AGoT stuff, even if you just take ITE onwards. I regret spending that much money for it, but I already did that before the anouncement. In fact it doesn´t change much, I guess all the old players will still play with their old cards and decks and the new players will play with the LCG cards, and that last part is more important to me than anything, since there actually are new players. The second shipment of the core set our store got is already sold out, that makes 2 shipments in 2 weeks and it should get another one this week. The fixed sets really get players on board that never would have bothered with a ccg and they where the actual reason I came back to the game.

As another new player, let me offer an alternative view.

My closet contains a number of rather large boxes containing thousands upon thousands of Star Wars, Star Trek, Horus Heresy, Babylon 5, 7th Sea, and EVE cards, just to name a few. When my wife asks, I say I keep them because they're pretty. Which is true, but the reality is that I keep them because they're worthless. Ah, for the heydey of a black border Premiere Set Vader selling for $50!! At least my signed Delenn is still valuable! But I digress...

FFG obviously faced a choice with AGOT. The format had to change in a way which would bring new players in. This has, to at least some degree, worked - I'm starting fresh with the Core Set, but I simply won't touch a game that requires me to go power card hunting over a dozen expansions. So, they decided they had to do something to reset the game and make it more attractive to players...

...or kill it.

IMHO, your cards were going to be worthless either way. At leat this way there's still a viable game attached to them.

As a suggestion, since the cards have little sale value (or will soon enough), why not turn it into a group pool? Let people pull what they want to use to make decks with, and return when they're done? It would solve your problem with the availability disparity, let you use them, and probably build interest among the other players going forward.

I also disagree with the contention that you can't use thes ITW and 5K cards in tournaments. there is no OP system in palce yet - and there is no reason to continue playing in "standard" and rotating things out the way they shoudl have gone. it is the way we paln to ahndle things here in teh northeastern US, and i will only be discussing cards and tactics here in terms of this format. i have no intention of playing any serious LCG events until most or all of teh Ravens block is released. at the moment - the card pool is far too limited for serious discussion.

I feel your pain mikelosaurus. I applaud you for venting. i encourage you to keep playing wiht teh ITE and 5K stuff until you have your group deloped.

Stag Lord said:

But do you encourage the folks who join the group as it develops to go out and buy their own ITE and 5KE stuff?

Certainly Five Kings. and not just for the sake of the new players getting the cards. I helped the store owner paln hsi inventory when he was asking what GoT stuff to stock (in Mineola) and he has boxes fo Five Kings sitting there behind the regaitser. at the very least we need to get new palyers buying it. we may have to run drafts as well - a format i despise.

Iron Throne....maybe not so much. Even if we were following the old model unchanged, at this point I wouldn't ask players to go search for a two and a half year old set, most of which ahs become very hard to fidn on eBay. whatever cards a new player might need - we would ahve to make available form our own collections - like how we helped finitesquarewolf round out his first place deck for Black Friday.

And that was for a big tournament. Ceratinly lack of ITE is even lesss of an issue with a more casual or local event.

Long story short - yes on Five Kings. I will still encourage new players to buy those boosters.

I agree with a lot what the other posters said.

In old tournament-format your new cards were unusable after three years and you had a lot of "useless" cards. But not if you decide in your meta to allow them for casual play.

I started a few years ago and now all my cards (didnt buy much ITE or 5KE) cant be used in "legal" tournament play.

You know what? I dont care!!

When i get together with my friends to play we only care about if a deck is nedly not if it is tournament legal.

So just play for playings sake.

If you are better at the start of your playing group thats not only because of some cards. It is because you know the game and strategies they dont. As in every CCG you always have to work with the cards you posses. If your players dont want to buy old cards that is okay. They just have to thing a little harder how to defeat you with the new and fewer cards. But as the pool grows larger it will become easier.

Eh, I don't feel burned at all. Of course, I lost nothing and gained everything with early rotation.

My wife and I are back in the game from before these current blocks (we stopped playing at the end of the Ice & Fire block). We were looking at waiting until all the collectible sets rotated out before we could play competitively, because buying singles for two blocks worth of sets would have been heinous. Not only would we have had to fork over the money for the rares etc. from the Winter and Iron Throne blocks, but we'd have to do days of painstaking research to find exactly what the strong rares were, and if they were available (which is not at all guaranteed, especially in our area), and what they would cost...

I just want other people to see it from another 'new' player's perspective. My wife and I can actually play competitively, instead of simply hoarding chapter packs and the core sets for a year. I know a lot of you are burnt on losing a lot of cards that would be playable, and that you thought they would be for a while yet and I sympathize with that. However, I can't help but feel that some new players are not burned at all, but enabled to actually play. If we weren't returning players, and the previous blocks were legal, we wouldn't play at all, ever.