The Lannisters seem very underpowered in this game. In a 4 player game, the Greyjoys can make an easy early attack to take the Riverrun Stronghold and there isnt much the Lannisters can do about it. The Lannisters are then playing catchup to try and take that crucial stronghold back, basically killing themselves and the Greyjoys in the process. Meanwhile, the Starks can take an easy time gobbling up the North and hit Seagard and Riverrun at their leisure. All the while, the Baratheons basically have the entire south to themselves. With a mere 3 ships, they can hit all 7 castles they need and win the game before anyone can even reach them. This setup seems seriously flawed.

Also, the stats for the Jaime Lannister card are completely ridiculous. Strength 2 and 1 sword?!? He is weaker than the majority of the cards in the game!! Was this meant to be his stats after his hand was hacked off!? It doesnt feel like the person who put the stats on that card read a single page in Song of Ice and Fire. Even after just a few games, we have had to use house rules to better balance this travesty. We gave Jaime a skull to offset his stupid numbers and basically everyone bum rushes the Baratheons in the beginning just so we all have a fighting chance. I was really hoping for a better experience with this game.

Jaime's card clearly reflects his effects on a major battle field, and not a personal duel.

As for the question in itself, I need to do more testing to answer it

there are two variant solutions to increase balance in the 4 player game.

first one is to simply switch greyjoy with tyrell like in the original first edition

second one is to block Sunspear, Yronwood, Princes Pass, Three Towers and Oldtown so the Baratheon can´t expand so much into the south areas and is forced to clash with other powers but still have a chance to get some areas by the sea.

or you can use ToB cards to help the neutral forces. it dependes on you gaming groups...

cadleo said:

There is a lot they can do about it. In my last game, I played Special Consolidate Power order on my first turn an built meself a siege engine. I let the Greyjoys deliberately take Riverrun. Raid with your ships to get rid of their naval support, then just attack them and play Clegane/Jaime. The Greyjoys just can't afford to lose any of their units so early in the game.

As for Baratheons, just make a house rule that you can't capture most of the castles or strongholds in Dorne/Reach. That way neither Lannisters or Baratheons can auto-win the game.

I do agree that if the Lannisters are worried about being taken over by the Greyjoys, they just need to prepare to defend their area for the first few turns. Haven't had many opportunites to actually play the new edition, but that was an issue in the first game, and the Greyjoys need to be watched so they don't get ahead too quickly.

I'm reserving judgement before i decide if the game is unbalanced. So far in most games everyone is very close on the victory track (that is good). in 4 player, lannister definately needs to go after highgarden and can't just attack greyjoy. As for the cards, i honestly feel the cards are more balanced then they were in the first edition (i don't necessarily agree with the stats for certain people, but they do seem to be more balanced).

Baratheon does seem to win a lot, but I feel this can be overcome with other houses applying certain strategies. I.E. in a 3 or 4 player game, Stark makes a run for teh waters near Baratheon and puts guys on the eastern side of the board. So i feel is everyone who is playing understands how the game works out, people can compensate and the game ends up close and mostly balanced. However, i'm not saying that this is good, just that you can have good games.

I had a 6 player game where everyone was on the 4-6 victory track and people were constantly going up and down. That was a close and fun game.

There is an extensive thread concerning this issue in the GoT first ed. forum. For whatever reason, FFG left that forum as the default one for months after their second ed. game was published. I wont go into it again here, but needless to say I stick by my original assertion that there are issues with not only the Lannister setup on the board, but their weak cards compared with the other houses.

Solutions like blocking provinces or house rules to limit certain factions in order to create a better balanced game is simply not acceptable. FFG has my money and they failed to give me a decent game for it. They can fix it or I will continue to call them out on this. They make great games, but this one has some fatal flaws.

@Kurbutti: Your example is incomplete. The Greyjoys can take several strongholds uncontested and there is nothing the Lannisters can do about it unless they get very very lucky. No special consolodate is going to help them when the Greyjoys have more castles. Please see the other thread for a more accurate depiction of the variations on a Lannister/Greyjoy start.

@HellsPanda: You have clearly not read the books, as Jaime is a brilliant commander as well as personal fighter. By that logic, Gregore Clegane is some kind of General Patton according to his stats, which again is not the case. This is a huge fail by FFG imo, Jaime is one of the most important characters in the story.

Switching Tyrell is the only feasible option I can see to try and change some of the imbalance, but my group was so annoyed by the flaws in this edition that we just went back to Civ and Dominion instead of doing FFG's playtesting work for them.

I would really like to see an official FFG response to the concerns over imbalance in this game.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=66&efcid=28&efidt=584954

This is the link to the lengthier thread in the now archived forum.

cadleo said:

Hear, hear!

What does it matter if Greyjoys can take 4 castles on turn 1? Taking castles is easy, but holding them will be difficult. Arrogant moves like these quickly provoke counter moves from Starks, and eventually from Lannisters.

Greyjoys have a ~33% chance of becoming exponentially harder. It really depends on whether or not muster will happen in turn 2. Greyjoys can be expeced to gain 4 strongholds first turn, so they will most likely take Riverrun with their knight. It's their best bet. There are two imortant things Lannisters can try: First they should attack the lone Greyjoy ship in Ironman's Bay. If you're lucky, the Greyjoy player will underestimate the importance of that area, and play a defensive card to save his navy. If you can push them back, they will be confined to the Iron Islands until next turn at least. They can't afford that delay. I've seen this happen.

If that fails, then simply construct a siege engine to threaten Riverrun. The material point is to overpower your enemy and then play a "bad" house card such as Jaime or Gregor Clegane. Clegane can be overkill against, say, one knight, but it is something the Greyjoys will never be able to save. Like I said before, Greyjoys are significantly weaker if there is no Turn 2 muster. Chance is ~33%, so it's worth the risk for both.

All in all, I disagree with your assertion that Lannisters can not prevail. Lannisters act first, which is key.

Interesting idea of attacking the greyjoy ships. Would probably only ever work once playing with the same group of people, but maybe moving forward greyjoy would be a bit more defensive allowing lannister to grab one of those castles early.

So, let me recap: Lannister's strategy should be to bank on a colossally stupid Greyjoy giving up Ironman's Bay, stranding them on Pyke. As for a Siege Engine threatening Riverrun, Greyjoy can defend with 4.1 Strength (Knight + Defense Token + Valyrian Blade + Wins Ties). Balon Greyjoy adds another 2, for a total of 6.1 Strength, while nullifying Lannister's House Card. So, Lannister needs to mount a 7-Strength attack on Riverrun without the benefit of a House Card—and that's not counting Greyjoy Support from Seagard and Ironman's Bay. And all of this hinges on Greyjoy not getting a Mustering in those early turns.

If the title of this thread were "Far-Fetched Ways for Lannister to Beat Greyjoy," you'd have a point.

Just saw Mike's reply. Still totally baffled on how anyone expects Lannister to win an early battle for Ironman's Bay against Greyjoy. They have dominant House Cards, more ships, Fiefdoms Track superiority and the Valyrian Blade.

As a newcomer to AGoT with the Second Edition, I find I have to ask, did this problem not exist in the previous edition? It sounds like Tyrell had the priority over Greyjoy in 4-player games, and that they switched it in this new edition. Why do you suppose they did so? I feel there must be a reason, but the only thing I can come up with is that the novels depict Greyjoy's involvement in the struggle earlier than they do Tyrell's. Except I doubt that's the reason since it's purely flavor, and not useful in making game-altering design choices.

I've played the second edition several times now (always 5-6 players), and haven't noticed Lannister to be at more or less of an advantage than the other players. We played 3 times, and once Lannister lost on a tiebreaker. The other two times the Lannister player either made crucial mistakes, or had Tyrell and Greyjoy gang up on him. I concede that the data points are small, and a disadvantage may appear after a few more times playing with players gaining more experience.

However, I disagree with the notion that Greyjoy has an easy road to 4 strongholds, and that Lannister's only recourse is to counter-attack or to hope for bad play on Greyjoy's part. In fact, Lannister can ensure that Greyjoy cannot take both Seagard and Riverrun on the first turn.

Lannister can place a raid on their ship, a support +1 on Stoney Sept, and a march on Lannisport. The raid eliminates any support from Greyjoy's fleet. With the march, move into Riverrun (and also Stoney Sept, if you wish). Lannister will have a defense of 5 (3 from Lannisport plus 1 in Stoney Sept plus 1 support). Since Greyjoy has no star orders, the most they can move into Riverrun is an attack of 5 (assuming they march the footman from Greywater Watch into Pyke, and then everyone down into Riverrun -- this will give an attack of 4, plus the sword). Greyjoy will win this battle since they win ties. However, it comes at the cost of using their entire army. Seagard is left unoccupied, and Lannister can retreat into there.

Furthermore, should Greyjoy choose to attack Riverrun, the Lannister counter-attack is still available should a mustering card appear. Even if it doesn't, Greyjoy would be forced to put a defense token on their army or risk being attacked with a March+1 supported with a +1 (attack of 6 vs Greyjoy's 5). This, of course, assumes Clash of Kings doesn't come up -- but the Greyjoy player would have to be pretty reckless to bet his entire army on the deck having the perfect cards.

In other words, should Lannister choose the path I laid out above, Greyjoy would probably avoid attacking Riverrun, and the expected outcome would be for Lannister to possess Lannisport, Riverrun, and Stoney Sept after turn 1, with Greyjoy controlling Pyke, Seagard, Greywater Watch, and Flint's Finger -- pretty evenly matched in terms of resources. After the first turn, it mostly depends on negotiations between the players, which is pretty much how the game was designed in the first place.

I just realized a pretty big mistake I made above -- if Greyjoy uses Balon, they can defeat Lannister's defense using just a single knight (I forgot that Balon had a strength beyond his text).

Still, the situation is not hopeless for Lannister. If you choose the opening move I describe above, Lannister will more than likely be able to counter-attack successfully. First, they should retreat from Riverrun into Harrenhal. There's a 5 in 9 chance that a Mustering will appear (assuming Baratheon chooses what is in their best interest). In that case, Lannister can bring into Riverrun an overwhelming force, play Ser Gregor, and wipe out any advantage Greyjoy gained from mustering in Riverrun (and then some).

Even if Mustering doesn't appear, a counter-attack will still likely work (although without the casualties). The only way Greyjoy can hold Riverrun is if they originally moved a Knight and Footman to attack Riverrun (or moved 2 Footmen into Seagard), then put a defense order on it and a support in Seagard (defense of 6 vs attack of 6). Still, that means that Greyjoy does not control Flint's Finger, and their armies are stuck defending an area they cannot hold once a Mustering card appears.

Also, I'd point out that the positioning of Lannister's territories is significantly more advantageous than Greyjoy's. The trifecta of Stoney Sept, Riverrun, and Lannisport means that an attack on any one of these territories will encounter significant resistance thanks to the support. Any mustering done in Lannisport is immediately effective in defense. The same is not true for Greyjoy -- no units mustered in Pyke can support any other units until they travel to land. Furthermore, the territories that Greyjoy can easily obtain on the mainland are spread out -- Flint's Finger cannot support Seagard.

One other advantage Lannister has over Greyjoy is the location of Stark -- right on Greyjoy's borders. By comparison, Tyrell has to go through Searoad Marches and/or Blackwater to get to Lannister, and with Martell on their border they probably have other things to worry about.

In the game I played where Lannister was successful, he built up his defense there and waited out his opponents. Greyjoy eventually decided to attack Stark, who had attacked Baratheon (with support from Lannister). This weakened both Baratheon and Greyjoy, allowing Lannister to take enough strongholds to tie with Tyrell on turn 10.

Lannister's best bet is to hole up and play the long game. If both Tyrell and Greyjoy gang up on them, then Lannister's cooked, but any player who has to fend off both neighbors is cooked. That's where the negotiations come in.

cadleo said:

With respect, you're being extremely harsh by suggesting the designers haven't read the books. Consider that in this game, a House card in no way represents a character's skill in single combat, Jaime's specialty. Rather, they simply add a combat bonus to attacking or defending armies, which in game-world terms represents leadership and tactical expertise, while the sword and tower icons represent the character's ability to press the advantage and mitigate loss, respectively. These are not skills Jaime possesses, as evidenced by his deadly loss to a very green Robb Stark, and by Tyrion's frequent disparaging of his brother's lack of cunning. Similarly, Gregor Clegane's House card is not bigger than Jaime's because of Gregor's individual strength, but because his fearsome presence inspires courage and dedication from his bannermen, and his ruthless tactics obviously favor destruction over survival, hence the amazing three swords.

Jaime is a duelist, and he excels in that sphere alone. As a commander, Jaime is competent enough to warrant a House card, but not one that is going to dominate the table. The LCG better explores his talent as a duelist.

goldbach said:

there is no option for lannister to keep riverrun 1st turn. I suggest rethinking your strategy.

best case:

footman (stoney sept) -> riverrun with support of lannisport (+1 token) = total 5 strength.

greyjoy's response:

knight -> riverrun (+0 token) play "Balon Greyjoy" power 2 (The printed combat strength of your opponent's House card is reduced to 0) and use the blade for the tie (which greyjoy wins)

perhaps you missed that.

In fact here is the script for you to win everytime with greyjoy over Lannister:

Greyjoy order script

TURN 1

PLACE ORDER TOKENS

(march -1) Ironman's bay
(march +0) Pike
(consolidate) Greywater Watch
(consolidate) Port of Pike

RESOLVE TOKENS

10 Pike(march +0) knight -> Riverrun
11 Pike(march +0) footman -> Seagard
12 ** Is there a combat? if NO, skip to line 20
14 Play "Aeron Damphair" card
15 If Lannister played "The Hound", play "Victarion Greyjoy" and move into Riverrun
16 If Lannister played "Tywin Lannister","Ser Gregor Clegane" OR "Ser Jaime Lannister", play "Euron Crow's Eye", destroy lannister's unit and move into Riverrun
17 If Lannister played any other card, play "Asha Greyjoy", destroy Lannister's unit(s) and move into Riverrun

20 Ironman's bay (march -1) ship -> The Golden Sound
21 ** Is there a combat? if NO, skip to line 40
22 ** Is "Aeron Damphair"in your discard pile? IF yes, skip to line 30
23 Play "Aeron Damphair" card
24 If Lannister played "The Hound", play "Victarion Greyjoy" and move into The Golden Sound
25 If Lannister played "Tywin Lannister","Ser Gregor Clegane" OR "Ser Jaime Lannister", play "Euron Crow's Eye", destroy Lannister's ship and move into The Golden Sound
26 If Lannister played any other card, play "Dagmar Cleftjaw", destroy Lannister's ship and move into The Golden Sound
27 Skip to line 40

30 If Lannister discard pile holds "The Hound", play "Euron Crow's Eye", have fleet destroyed and take The Golden Sound
31 If Lannister discard pile holds any other card, play "Victarion Greyjoy" and move into The Golden Sound
32 If Lannister plays "Tyrion Lannister", play "Dagmar Cleftjaw", use the Valyrian steel blade, have fleet destroyed and take The Golden Sound

40 End the turn, Lannister is done (for).

Summary for turn 1:

Best case for Lannister (to consolidate):

2 knights, 1 footman in Lannisport
1 ships in Lannisport (port)

Worst case for Lannister (doing anything else other than consolidate eg: attacking Riverrun):

1 footman in Stoney Sept

TURN 2

If mustering comes up:

Siege (Riverrun)
2 footmen (Pike)
ship (Ironman's Bay) from (Seagard)
upgrade footman to knight (Seagard)

PLACE ORDER TOKENS

(march +0 or +1) Riverrun
(march -1 or +0) Pike
(consolidate) Greywater Watch
(consolidate) Port of Pike
(support +0 or +1) Ironman's Bay
(support) Seagard
(raid or raid*) The Golden Sound

Lannister now has in lannisport:

2 ships (port)
3 knights (Lannisport)

RESOLVE TOKENS (best case for Lannister)

The Golden Sound (raid) on Lannisport (port)

10 Riverrun(march +0) knight+siege -> Riverrun
11 Play "Balon Greyjoy" and use the Valyrian steel blade(if needed) and enjoy Lannisport.

I understand there is only the defense +2 token that can stymie this method for occupying Lannisport turn 2 upon muster, and if that is your playstyle i suggest the Pike footman rides to riverrun turn 1 with the knight. The script was designed for all outcomes in mind (muster, no muster, alliances and such)

This however requires Lannister to do nothing but consolidate turn 1. if he doesn't. he loses Lannisport turn 2 if a muster comes up.

Something that I noticed from this thorough dissection of the Greyjoy bid for Lannisport, is the dearth of defensive Lannister house cards. The Hound is excellent, but beyond that, only Tyrion offers some potential defensive guile.

I suppose offense is the best defense at times, but in the desperate scenarios outlined above, time is in short supply!

MarthWMaster said:

Have you read the books? Yes, in single combat Jaime was nearly unrivalled, but he was still a very skilled and competant commander. Tywin gave him 30,000 troops to ravage the Riverlands with and it was only by complete surprise that Rob Stark was able to defeat him, and still at considerable loss. Also, Gregor's men were not at all adept in the field and he was well known as an overly harsh and foolhardy commander. No, I think its simply a failing on FFG's part. If I seem overly harsh, its because I have already payed them for a game that is clearly incomplete. The LCG is balanced, fun to play and still stays VERY true to the books. Im not sure how they missed the mark with this one.

Thanks for reposting that here, Jhagen.

21 ** Is there a combat? if NO, skip to line 30

should read :

21 ** Is there a combat? if NO, skip to line 40

feel free to copy and paste this to a txt file and print out.

the issue is not with the lore (as nice as that is) or the gameplay (thats good too). IT's the freaking playtesting. I played a half dozen games beforeit was clear that Greyjoy facerolled Lannister.

In the hands of a dilligent and capable player. Lannisport falls on turn 2.(on a muster)

No diplomacy needed, cause noone can reach Lannister to help them.

FIRST MOVE, 2nd turn and Lannister's game is done.

I suggest using Lannister,Stark,Tyrell and Martell for 4 player games. Add Baratheon for 5 player. and placing the Martell 5-man garrison in Riverrun for 6player games.

I think I addressed this in my second post (yes, I forgot about Balon in my first post). Greyjoy can take Riverrun in hist first turn. However, they cannot hold it in the second turn -- unless they commit their entire army to doing do, and if they do, then Seagard is open to an attack from Stark -- and Eddard Stark has two swords.

In the first few turns, Lannister can focus 100% of their attention on Greyjoy. Greyjoy is forced to focus their attention on both Lannister and Stark. Greyjoy can absolutely make the game miserable for Lannister -- but not if they want to win. It's the mutually assured destruction that should keep Greyjoy in check.

goldbach said:

it is unfortunate you have not played with skilled players.

Stark has no reason to overextend themselves to Seagard. Stark has no hopes of holding it. save for attaining the 7th castle for victory on his push turn. otherwise support of it can be cut too easily.

and yes Greyjoy can hold Riverrun 2nd turn against Lannister.

for example:

Assume Lannister both musters and consolidates for 3 knights in lannisport. and attacks riverrun with a +1 token from lannisport for a total of +7

Greyjoy:

Seagard supports with a knight (2 total strngth)

Ironman's bay supports with a ship (3)

Riverrun has 1 knight and 1 siege (thats 5, and now you have Balon to tie and have the sword on top of that to boot)

then the whole shabang has to retreat back to Lannisport and then Greyjoy resolves his march order and takes Lannisport with a knight. and destroys all 3 routed knights. and takes the 2 ships for his own.

As for mutually assured destruction, that is laughable at best since Greyjoy has 4 castles and strongholds withiin 1 move of riverrun. and they own lannisport first move of turn 2. and there will be 1 lannister unit on board with your strategy. excellent work.

jhagen said:

My group gave this game another chance last night and switched out Greyjoy for Tyrell. This made the game feel much more balanced and even though one of our players is a chaotic wild man most the time AND we made him take the Lannisters, he still did decent and the overall feel was much better. Im not gonna bog it down with stats or a blow by blow. Baratheon did still seem to be in the best position but it get it to within acceptable levels so we can enjoy a strategy game in this genre.

Jhagen, I am intrigued by your 4 player setup and I think I will offer that up next time to see if it will improve it further.