Just started playing a week ago and I recently bought the unit card upgrade. I have a quick question that I'm sure a lot of you can answer and I'm pretty sure I know the answer I just want to make sure. I am looking at the "Ludwig" walker card and I see two 8.8 cm guns on the model but I see one weapon stat line. I looked at a compareable card "Pounder" and I'm assuming it's going to be just the one weapon. I just want to make sure because I know the rulebook keeps making you reference whatever is on the unit card. I'm pretty sure that two 8.8cm guns would make the "ludwig" very powerful and unbalanced but I want to make sure. Thanks for the help.

A question everybody has asked themeselves due to the fact that a dual armed 88 would be way better than a single 17pdr, but the answer is 1 stat line = 1 shot.

gj, I have been wondering this since I got the game and have been to worried about looking stupid to ask the question hahaha

The only stupid question is the one you don't ask. If you are afraid to look stupid in this life, then your only option is to opt out, so get used to it.

The fluff is a bit flaky here and the time frame of a turn isn't established, but you can either figure multiple shots from a walker (the Pounder shoots twice, the Ludwig once with each arm) or the idea that the Ludwig shoots with both guns each time it shoots is wrong. In the second case, the answer to the question "Why can't I shoot with both arms at once then?", becomes "Because it will fall on its arse from the recoil, it braces and shoots one then braces and shoots the other."

Actually, the second solution (bracing to fire each gun alternately) actually plays into much loved idea of "build your own Axis walker" with arm swaps. The complication is that firing one arm would preclude firing the other that turn. I think that could be lived with in the game. Now how to give the Allies another nifty ability I don't know.

I think the idea of the two guns bracing and firing seperatly just doesnt pan out for me. If that was realy the issue, why waist money outfitting two cannons on the walker? why not install a faster auto-loader and one gun? then it could brace once and then blaze away. Or create a recoiless arm assembly and let the guns hammer backwards a few feet? All easier than two big 88's you cant use efficiently.

I think it has nothing to do with fluff, its about game balance. a two shot 88 would cost at least 50% more than a pounder points wise, and then the original core set wouldnt be out of the box playable.

I wouldnt mind, though. Id pay 55-60 points for a 2 shot 88!

Game balance is the biggest issue, but looking at fluff doesn't hurt.

It's easy to say, 'Add a faster auto loader.' but we don't have really good auto loaders for big guns now, and Dust is a mix of WW2 tech with some extras from the aliens. Going with two guns with the available auto loaders would do the job.

You also have to worry about recoil from multiple guns, survivability if the walker takes damage, and how big a magazine you can workably fit on those guns.

Recoil from one 88 is significant, and you don't have a tank body to absorb it. You can suggest using recoiless mountings, but they were barely made available for lighter Allied guns before the end of the real WW2, and might not be available to the Axis yet.

If the walker can only fit fifteen rounds in a magazine warkably, but you want it to last through a longer battle, two guns would make sense. While a normal tank might carry over fifty rounds for their 88 in WW2, walkers don't have that much room, and ammo on the arm would add to arm weight and engineering problems.

There can be plenty of fluff reasons to use twin mounts, but not the full effect of two guns. The fact that it also keeps the walker down in the points range of other medium walkers is not a bad thing.

This why I try not to have "reality" discusions about a sci-fi game.

It becomes a matter of picking and choosing wich issue gets the "real world" explanation, and wich gets the "plausable fiction" explanation. regardless of the tech level of the time, once you introduce Alien Tech influence, all bets are off.

I notice no one has mentioned the tiny little pivot point that holds the mighty 88 to the Ludwig, so little it would snap off the moment it fired....in real life. Or the fact that the legs and knees interfere with the pivot of the torso and would make walking difficult.....in real life. Or that the limits of 1945 hydrolics would mean that a robot walker would move like its legs where back hoe shovel arms, like a man with palsy......in real life. Or the lack of a suitable power source that would fit inside and be powerful enough to make it all work against the laws of reason.....in real life.

Its SCI-FI! Enjoy it! They look cool, therefore they work! "Real life auto loaders?" "Damage back up weapons?""Only the Allies have recoil-compensaters?" I think if the ALIEN TECH can let them make robo-zombies and giant robots, the rest of those issues would be a piece of cake!

Its called "Suspention of disbelief", have fun!!

I enjoy the setting immensely.

I like the walkers, even with all of the engineering issues they come with.

I simply believe that every bit of sci-fi, if it's going to have a wider appeal and longevity, has to have some level of consistency in how things work, or the suspension of disbelief fails, and people lose interest.

If the alien tech gave them everything, the allies would never had had a chance to catch up as far as they have, and the world would be boring. Even with alien tech, the laws of physics still exist, and it would take time to figure out how to overcome them.

Because they have some advances, but not so many as to overwhelm the Allies, the Axis gets to keep going, and we have an interesting fight as the Allies play catch-up on the arms race.

Because the Allies are better innovators, they get jumping walkers and flying troops to make up for the better Axis equipment.

It works, even with its implausibilities, because the implausibilities remain small enough it's easy for people to say, "What if?"

At some point in the "What if?" however, there has to be a level where they pull back the reins, so the Axis doesn't have every possible advance to the point the Vrill will be overwhelmed when they show up.

The trick with "rubber science" is to consistently follow the laws of physics, even if the setting includes "rubber" physics. Chicken leg walkers would solve most of the issues we are talking about: both the blocking of the turret rotation and any need to brace before firing. The only decent design of a human leg walker I've seen is the 40k Dreadnought and it specifically clumps forward in an awkward manner like a man with stiff legs. It is never going to move fluidly and quickly.

The idea of "bracing" isn't some complicated or time consuming process, it just means the firing sequence is: Step, Brace, Fire Left, Step, Brace, Fire Right. Bingo, both shots go downrange and everyone is happy. In fact, I'd submit that the position of the legs show the walkers in a firing position. To actually move, they would extend them and get higher off the ground. All of which is hidden in the assumptions of the system in the same way that human models are considered in cover even though they are modeled as standing tall above the ammo crate or in the open at a corner. They are "assumed" to have rationally hunkered down to make use of the cover available.

Why two guns? First, they look cool. Second, if we get incremental damage in Dust Warfare on vehicles, then it would take two "weapon destroyed" hits to knock out a main weapon. Third, so that there can be multiple different weapon options available for walkers. The game system doesn't support that yet, but I won't be surprised if rulesj (official or unofficial) come out with points for Walker Body A that can be fitted with Weapon Options X, Y & Z. Similarly, point costs for squads that have costs for individual minis to allow you to "build-your-own-squad" with costs for special abilities.

Consider, BBQ Squad vs Hellboys: 30 points vs 34 points. What does 4 points buy? + Flamethrower - Shotgun - Demo Charges

Gunners (20) vs Bot Hunters (22) vs Death Dealers (23) is even better. Lose a rifle & UGL for the privilege of having a spare bazooka (for +2 points) or a spare MG (for +3 points).

In a similar vein, I see the gun mounts as being due to model dezign, so we can easily swap weapon systems and make better use of the walker models. I can easily accept that an actual mounting would have additional bracing to allow a weapon to fire properly, while the model mounting makes it easy for me to shift from a Luther, to a Ludwig, to a Lothar, to a Loth, to whatever else they bring out (perhaps the Nebelwerfer/88 version seen in so many images (hint, hint)).

Consistency lets us ignore the issues, while too many oddities, or oddities that don't match between different forces, causes problems.

Discussions about what they imagine for their fluff can add a lot for people who like the background. For peopl who don't care, they can simply play a fun game and enjoy just that.