MalikCarr said:

okay, so are the stats and cost and availablity for the Armored Body Glove per the 1st Printing?

If so I know what I want to try to get for my assassin. Of course I will need the total body suit

During our gaming session earlier this evening we found a weapon that had apparently been left out of the supplement. The Chimera Pistol Sword ( pg. 162 Inquisitors handbook ) I looked for it and even used the search feature for the keywords but it wasnt showing. I figured it was an oversight on accident given it looks as everything else is there and you said you wanted informed if we found any errors/omissions...Were waiting to see what the next supplement will look like. Thanks again for the one youve given us already and props for the one your working on for us all again for future release. Gorgeous fan made stuff...everybit as good as ( better ) than some of the FFG ( yours is more convenient )

Oof. Somehow I missed that one.

I think I must've forgotten to include it due to deliberately omitting the Irontalon pistol. Thanks to Rogue Trader's Naval Pistol, which is less rare and basically better in every way, there was no reason for me to bother keeping the first one around, and since that's how the pistol portion of the Chimera works...

Angel of Death said:

That should be correct, yeah.

@MalikCarr:

A revised edition incorporating the new equipment from The Book of Judgement and Hostile Acquisitons would make you, sir, become my personal hero.

I really appreciate the work you put into compiling the handbook.

I'm working on it as time and effort permits (mostly effort... it's like the tides, it comes and it goes, you know?).

Great work and a very useful handbook if you have a PC availible at the game. Unfortunatelly not our case...

By the way so far I have found out some mistakes:

1) Hecuter 9/5 Heavy Combat Autopistol is called HecutEr, not HecutOr.

2) Cypra Mundi "Irontalon" Pistol is missing

3) At the end of a Cypra Mundi "Ironclaw" Pattern Shotgun description you accidentaly switched the name Ironclaw for Irontalon.

4) Ripper Clip is an Autopistol, so why it is not under Autopistols but stands aside?

Kurgan_cz said:

1. Added that to the list of things bearing correction.

2. I couldn't think of a single thing I could do to make that pistol do anything that the Naval Pistol from Rogue Trader doesn't do better, so I ended up just tossing the whole thing. If you have any advice otherwise…

3. Added that to the list of things also.

4. It's totally different from other autopistols due to its loading mechanism and weird action, to wit I felt it would be better placed outside the other headings. Of course, that also puts it right next to Marbo's Ripper Pistol… :V

Anyway. Those of you who've been pining for a Macharian Handbook for stuff that isn't guns and armor need wait no longer - at considerable personal expense of time and effort, 'Tools of the Trade' is now ready for a first draft review. See the first post where I've connivingly added a new link.

I looked at this expecting it to be one of those badly put together house rule items, but WOW, I am IMPRESSED. My hat off to you for making probably one of the greatest fan additions to 40k RPG.

Skimming through it, I was wondering if you were going to "fix" the Ironclaw's insanely low price and the Slayer's stupidly long reload time. Also, for the Angelus I would think it would be better to use the Deathwatch/Black Crusade Astartes/Legion Bolter Damage for the Angelus. As well I didn't see the "Cadence Widower" in the exotic weapons.

Edit: I made a sheet of ALL the ammo/explosives in DH a while back, would you want something like that?

Thank you for the Tools of Trade!!!

Cymbel said:

I'm not really sure what to do with the Ironclaw. That's the price that was listed in the Inquisitor's Handbook, which does seem awfully cheap for a Reliable weapon brought all the way over from Cypra-Mundi. Then again, it's also inferior to the generic combat shotgun in most other ways, so maybe that evens things out.

The Angelus' fluff originally stated it was meant to use stolen bolts intended for Astartes weapons, which - by Black Industries' writing - did 2d10 X with Pen 5. Woohoo. Giving that we now know better, I figured it was easier to make it use far more available 1-caliber bolts for a human-sized heavy bolter, which I've priced separately in the Macharian Handbook. Those figures, I imagine, make a lot more sense while also meaning the ammunition isn't some kind of heresy to actually possess in the first place.

Thanks for the tip on the last one. I'll add that to the 1.1 revision.

Thanks!

The problem with the Ironclaw's price is not in relation to the Combat Shotgun (which DOES outclass it, but not by much for the price and lack of reliability), it is by how it outclasses the PUMP ACTION Shotgun, for only 5 thrones more. Sort of how like the pump action shotgun outclasses the double barrel shotgun, but even more so with shorter reload, more shots, reliable (which a pump SHOULD have) for a pittance of extra cost. This is made up by being harder to find, but not by much and most GMs don't impose that penalty on starting gear.

On Compact, one of my GMs came up with a good way to fix it, so that it became useful. First off, -20 to find it, half sized magazines, shorter range, half weight, etc. BUT no -1 damage. And then with a normal compact weapon (like an autogun), you can load a full sized magazine into it, but then only a -10 to find. And then for items like Stub Revolvers, you make them a snub nose weapon. (1/2 Range, Full Capacity, slightly lighter weight, -10 to find). So this encourages PCs to take compact weapons and use more stealth.

On that note, the Slayer was treated as a -10 to find, 2 full reload, pistol grip pump action. So it has the advantage of being a cheap compact pump-action shotgun without the major drawbacks that a "real" compact pump action would have.

Btw, do you plan to add Xenos/Archeotech Weapons?

When I started off I figured no good manual named after the great Lord Solar Macharius would contain dirty dirty things like Xenos weaponry. Also, in most Dark Heresy games, you usually don't come across those anyway, much less actually get a chance to use them. Rogue Trader, of course, is a different situation entirely. The same goes for Archaeotech, but I didn't really feel like trying to abjure a price onto those since it would no doubt be some astronomical thing.

I see your point about the Ironclaw thing. I suppose I'll have to figure something else out there. Although, do keep in mind as far as comparing a pump-action to a double-barrel goes that the basic shotgun can also fire both barrels at once, which adds the Tearing quality to your weapon. Tearing + Scatter = a horrible thing against people who aren't wearing heavy flak armor, as my players have very well demonstrated.

I don't really see the need to change Compact - a shrunken weapon is in every way inferior to a full-sized counterpart, which is a trade-off you make to save weight and improve concealment. To put it differently, if you *could* be carrying a larger gun, you *should* be. It's also intended to be a fairly cheap alternative to carrying a purpose-built concealment gun, like the Venom-S or Mariette, which are both really expensive.

Upon retrospect I'm not really sure why the Slayer's reload time is as long as it is. Maybe I'll change that just due to the fact that I'm not even sure how weirdly you'd have to build a shotgun to make it take a full six seconds longer to load two *less* shells.

I see what you mean about the compact weapons tradeoff, but here is the thing. You can make a weapon compact, without losing a lot of power.

See: Bullpup Designs, Taking off the Stock, etc.

And on the Xenotech/Archeotech, it is true, most PCs won't come across most of them, but some are the "cheaper" and more common, like Ork Weapons, Eldar Weapons, some of the minor xenos races and some of the archeotech that isn't so "overt"

Assault Gauntlets (Its), a gauntlet with a gun, makes me think of this http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/c/c0/BallisticFist.png

Tau Pulse Weapons, Kroot Rifles, Eldar Shuriken (and so on), Dark Eldar Splinter Weapons. Enoulian Shard

If anything, the great Lord Solar Macharius would want Inquisitorial servants aware of the possible danger, to better prepare themselves for it. In the end it is up to you, but with it being so nearly complete and perfect, it seems a shame to stop partway (or possibly making a 3rd book of xenos/heretical stuff?)

Sorry for the 2nd post, but could you also add "Mono Arrows/Quarrels"? Basically either +2 Pen or Turn Pen to 3, similar cost to manstoppers.

Also, Autocannon shells need a pricing. What about the rarer larger caliber ammo? Tranter .54 rounds (which is based off the .50 AE of the Desert Eagle I presume), should cost more than the ammo size of a stub automatic (which I would estimate as something like .40 S&W, 9mm for Autopistols and prolly 10mm or such for the 1d10+4 pistols). A friend of mine made an incredibly comprehensive real ammo damage scaling for pistols and rifles for a DH homebrew, but that would way too complex to use in any normal way.

A friend asked me to ask these for him:

1. Why are Bolt Shells still so costly?

2. Does the quality of whatever you attach with the melee talent carry over? Such as a BQ mono knife = BQ mono spear?

Good point about the autocannon (and assault cannon, now that I think about it!) ammo pricing. I'll add that to the 1.1 to-do list.

Some autoguns and stubbers are variously described as using larger or smaller caliber bullets, but BI/FFG never figured to quantify these with a price. Aside from the Tranter, the Armageddon autogun comes to mind as being specifically described as such. Presumably whatever cost differentials go into making these heavier rounds get absorbed by the mass availability of caseless or stub ammo in general and so there's no real difference at market value.

Bolts are expensive, this is a known quantity in 40k. The ammo itself is what makes bolt weapons such uncommon pieces as a boltgun itself is a relatively uncomplicated weapon, even if it does require more tender loving words to make its machine spirit happy. The fact that bolts are so much more complex and have lots of small parts inside them, not to mention an impact-triggered warhead with a delay fuse, means that usually only forces with very strong logistical support, like the Imperial Guard or a Space Marine chapter can actually supply bolters in the field accordingly.

All I did was split off the standard caliber bolts vs. the heavy-duty ones used for heavy bolters. Didn't really make much sense to be paying the same price for both when the second ones are so monstrously more powerful. Likewise, acolytes in a military environment would be able to easily find bolts for a heavy bolter owing to the fact that they're attached to a ton of Imperial Guard vehicles, but "standard"-size ones would be much less common there since now you're basically looking at the personal sidearms of officers and regimental commissars - both of whom I imagine wouldn't be apt to just cough the things up freely.

Oh yeah, I am a fan of splitting them up like you did for the bolts. I do wish the heavier caliber guns cost more than the normal ones though, especially handcannons/heavy stubbers.

Do you have any idea about the quality of the melee weapon used in the attachment affecting the "total" craftsmanship of the weapon used in melee.

Bolts are expensive, sure, but under the rules as written, one bolt shell, 15 Thrones, costs as much as 450 bullets. They shouldn't be THAT expensive. A melta canister is the same price for an entire magazine.

Have you ever noticed how almost no organizations outside of the Space Marines and Sisters of Battle actually use bolters?

You can see them on a few Arbitrators or Storm Troopers, but by and large there's no bolters in regular use by anyone. Officers and other elites will sometimes carry bolt *pistols*, but that's all. Meanwhile, many vehicles are virtually festooned with heavy bolters…

Giving that bolt weapons themselves are fairly simple, which is reflected in their cost, it stands to reason that the expense of the ammunition itself is what's keeping them from wider use. Guardsmen might be issued a plasma gun, or a melta gun, but never a bolter, ever - as you pointed out, those weapons have much less costly ammunition but the guns themselves are far, far more costly. Keeping them supplied in a military setting is clearly far less of a problem than with bolt weapons.

To wit, it seems logical enough to deduce that the bolts themselves are what keeps bolt weapons as rare as they are.

By that logic, shouldn't the Heavy Bolter ammo be cheaper then? As everyone and their friend in the Imperium uses it as a Vehicle Armanent (even over the much cheaper stubber, both in ammo and the gun itself).

I actually agree with you on that one, and would encourage any GM to affect the cost and availability of 1-caliber bolts accordingly in military environments or situations where the acolytes are around forges and other manufactoria where heavy bolters and armored vehicles are made.

If bolt shells are so expensive, why don't the Battle Sisters and Space Marines stop using them entirely and issue their troops with plasma guns instead? They're ancestral weapons anyway. Or, if cost is an issue, use up-gunned las weapons like hellguns. Autocannons are cheaper than heavy bolters, too; 1,000 compared to 1,600, and autocannons are much more powerful.

Bolts are not expensive for those organizations, which use the best and most reliable. Besides, Boltguns are cheap, Plasma is super expensive. And on Autocannons, if we went by raw damage like that, everything in 40k would use Multilasers/Autocannons…

Plasma may be "super expensive" at first, but it would be cheaper in the long run, as opposed to manufacturing millions of bolt shells. Once the weapons are issued they'll be usable for the next few centuries, and plasma flasks are cheaper per-round than bolt shells are. On top of that, plasma is more powerful.

My point is, bolt shells should be cheaper than they are. Even if they were reduced to, say, 3 per round, that's still enough for 90 rounds of conventional SP ammunition. A common man would still prefer a stubber because it means they don't have to spend their month's paycheck on a single magazine, whereas a successful, professional soldier or assassin who makes a great deal more money would be able to afford one.