Tibs said:

You're not supposed to assign gate order when you're at the monster limit, you're supposed to put monsters in the outskirts (I think, it's been ages since the last time I've read the manual). Black Goat's problem's a bit different. But it really ought to be addressed as well...

Avi_dreader said:

This is covered in the AH rulebook, page 9.

Location Has Open Gate
"If there are more monsters to be placed than allowed by the monster limit (see “Monster Limits and the Outskirts,” page 18), the players should decide where monsters will be placed. The players must make this decision before monsters have been drawn from the cup. If the players cannot agree where the monsters are to be placed, the first player decides the placement."

A Monster Appears
"The first player draws a monster marker from the cup at random and places it on the location. If this would bring the number of monsters over the monster limit, the first player places the monster in the Outskirts instead."

You first decide the gate order the monsters are to be placed. You then draw a monster and place it on the appropriate gate. If you are at the monster limit and the monster you just drawn is Undead then it stays at the gate location it was just placed on. The reason for this is that placing the Undead monster at the gate location DID NOT bring the number of monsters over the monster limit (because in this situation "undead do not count against the monster limit").

In normal "monster limit" situations, to save a bit of time and effort it makes sense to skip the step of placing the monster on the location and then checking to see if the monster limit has been exceeded or not. Now there are monsters which do not count towards the monster limit you must go back to the original rules and follow them correctly.

Avi_dreader said:

Well now that monsters are randomly exempt from the Outskirts, you simply don't place them all there when you're at limit. Doesn't matter what the base game manual says, because this is not a base game issue. The Outskirts is reserved for monsters who would have gone to a gate. That's like saying when the town is at limit and a single gate opens, the monster goes straight to the Outskirts—but if it turns out to be Undead then you won't know where it's supposed to go instead.

xris said:

First for the Monster Appears section. It's ambiguous. You could read that "instead" as meaning first place the monster on the board, then move it to the outskirts, or as place the monster directly in the outskirts (I'd actually be inclined to assume it originally meant the later, despite the current attempt to force it to better fit a situation that didn't exist over five years ago).

Second for Location Has Open Gate. It might mean what you say, or it might mean that you have to decide on the placement of random monsters *until* you hit the monster limit. Again, this is dealing with a situation written over five years ago. If you look on page eighteen, you will see that it has the same language of place "instead." It could mean one thing, it could mean another. And it's really up to FFG to decide on what they want it to "officially" mean now (since I'd be willing to bet money that it didn't mean that when the rules were originally conceived, this situation didn't exist then, it's never existed until now, and now only for one card).

Tibs said:

You're assuming that the game designers would want to add considerable game complexity when drawing monsters for the sake of one rumor? Making this method an official procedure rule (as opposed to an exception in a case like this) would slow down the game (assuming some people conform to the almost always needless rule). And for what? One card?

Seeing how there's no better way to handle this, yes, I'm assuming that. But for this to even become relevant, you'd have to:

1. Get the rumor
2. Fail the rumor
3. Get a monster surge that would put you over limit

And it's honestly not all that much work when you think about it. Spend a few extra seconds checking each Outskirts candidate monster as you place it on its pre-designated gate.

Tibs said:

At least no more than searching the monster cup for a specific monster which also happens sometimes.

Avi_dreader said:

Hmmm. Except...for those five years, I've been doing it exactly as the former (both First and Second). And I've never had a problem, nor have I ever had a moment when it felt like I was violating anything.

I'm not sure why it would be...I don't know what word to use...to choose which Gates get monsters before pulling from the Cup, regardless of the Monster Limit. It's...what? Ephemeral? I mean, it's not even a corporeal thing. It pretty much happens every time I count Open Gates to determine surge sizes. My mind just goes, "One there...one there...one there...not there...not there. Two to Outskirts." And then I pull monsters one at a time. I really don't see the difference between, "All these go to the Outskirts [Handful]," and, "This one would go there, but can't, so then to the Outskirts [repeat]," one at a time.

Frankly, if you had been doing it my way for the last five years, this wouldn't even be a thread. But I suppose, like anything else that's debated in AH, there's always a "former" and a "latter" way of interpretation.

Veet said:

Yes exactly. And for the most part, I don't mind doing that . I know this doesn't reflect Avi's concerns, but I, for one, am not bothered by this rumor. Rather, I am anxious to get to it.

Now if only Thought Hammer would get the things in stock...

Avi_dreader said:

Aha. That might be the crux. That "method" IS my "official procedure". That's how I've always done it: it's a good, "by-the-numbers" way to drill it into new Cultists learning the Mythos Phase (and surges). Granted, I can do it faster when I'm alone (and not announcing it), but either way, I'm certain my games would always be "too slow" for the Master Expediters.

Sorry, Avi, you might just have to "bog it down" if you ever fail this rumor. (Luckily, as Tibs said, probably pretty rare.) Do you want me to make you a flow chart?

Tibs said:

Gah. I'm saying that if this is official procedure, you'd technically need to do this even when you haven't failed the rumor (i.e. all the time). Logically speaking, not rationally. Unless this card's wording was made into an exception.

I intend on playing this card rationally ;') not logically, but, rules should be designed and expressed logically. Players shouldn't have to think about which ways they'd need to do something for it to make sense.

jgt7771 said:

Right, well, it's not my fault you added in a "not there" Phase ;'D

Avi_dreader said:

I believe you DO need to do this all the time. But what's nice about every time we've been doing it is that it can be easily simplified.

jgt7771 said:

Tibs said:

OK. Well maybe I should put it this way: what do you think we're supposed to do?

Tibs said:

I don't know.

I think the result should probably be implementing the designate gate first method in that kind of situation, but it ought to be phrased as an exceptional circumstance thing so that it won't be interpreted as something one ought to do in any other cases.

Or FFG might want to go about it some other way.

I plan on playing as jgt would with this card. Or houseruling so excess monsters go to the graveyard ;'D haven't decided yet. Perhaps I'll have it so that undead monsters go to the graveyard even before the rumor is failed (for extra fun), and are treated as endless. Although if I do that, I'll also make it so there's an extra clause returning undead monsters to the cup if the rumor is passed.

...

That's kind of a fun idea for game customization. Amplified rumors. Maybe a separate thread for that sometime.