Miskatonic Horror: WOW!

By Cantuse, in Arkham Horror Second Edition

Played my first MH game yesterday in a single-player, four investigator megamix of all the current expansions.

Quick hits: This was my first loss via getting Act III into play, but more interestingly I had one character with a "One of the Thousand" membership and a corruption card who furthermore actually had several cult encounters, several exhibit encounters, one investigator ending up at the SHHitM, another investigator drawing no less than five Innsmouth Look cards at once, and finally failing a vicious vicious new rumor "To Conquer Death" that makes all monsters endless and undead not count towards the monster limit.

Of course the worst part was when Roland Banks was the FP and drew the Mythos card "Rash of Missing Person" or whatever it's called where the first player must pick an investigator to be LitaS. I was playing against Yog-Sothoth and Dunwich Horror. I can't imagine that happening in a real multiplayer game. Ouch.

I really like the effect MH is having on the game, the only downside is that I was using the bureau of investigations and I really didn't use them at all the entire game. Maybe it's just me, but I'm a stingy bastard with my clue tokens.

I've played a few games with the Miskatonic University institution and I felt the same way you did about the bureau. The abilities are nice and pretty strong, but they have a high cost.

Only the Organized Crime Institution seems to make the game significantly easier for the investigators. Unlike the Bureau and Miskatonic, those abilities only require money to use.

Cantuse said:

Quick hits: This was my first loss via getting Act III into play, but more interestingly I had one character with a "One of the Thousand" membership and a corruption card who furthermore actually had several cult encounters, several exhibit encounters, one investigator ending up at the SHHitM, another investigator drawing no less than five Innsmouth Look cards at once, and finally failing a vicious vicious new rumor "To Conquer Death" that makes all monsters endless and undead not count towards the monster limit.

Yeaaaah... The Acts should be rather deadly now... Which reminds me... I'm going to need to make a revised version of my Hastur herald. Guh. I mean... It's not that rare to get one of each environment during a game. AND you can still draw next act begins cards. Which means... Hoom.

At this point... I think you're probably best off paying the first doom token in most games... The Act deck should be very dangerous now...

I love To Conquer Death, but I'm annoyed that they made something like "undead do not count against the monster limit" without explaining how that works with the outskirts. We have this issue all the time in the custom forum, but there's no official precedent for this situation. So. Yeah. Great.

Avi_dreader said:

Cantuse said:

Quick hits: This was my first loss via getting Act III into play, but more interestingly I had one character with a "One of the Thousand" membership and a corruption card who furthermore actually had several cult encounters, several exhibit encounters, one investigator ending up at the SHHitM, another investigator drawing no less than five Innsmouth Look cards at once, and finally failing a vicious vicious new rumor "To Conquer Death" that makes all monsters endless and undead not count towards the monster limit.

Yeaaaah... The Acts should be rather deadly now... Which reminds me... I'm going to need to make a revised version of my Hastur herald. Guh. I mean... It's not that rare to get one of each environment during a game. AND you can still draw next act begins cards. Which means... Hoom.

At this point... I think you're probably best off paying the first doom token in most games... The Act deck should be very dangerous now...

I love To Conquer Death, but I'm annoyed that they made something like "undead do not count against the monster limit" without explaining how that works with the outskirts. We have this issue all the time in the custom forum, but there's no official precedent for this situation. So. Yeah. Great.

Without having looked at the card, it seems to me that Undead are treated like Spawn monsters for the purposes of not counting against monster limit. If they are placed in Arkham, they are not counted towards the number of monsters that are in play before adding to outskirts. If they are put in the outskirts, they are treated like any other monster

Come on, it doesn't seem that hard. When a monster enters play that would put it above the limit, it goes to Outskirts. If a monster in the Outskirts is suddenly exempt from the monster limit, that doesn't change the fact that it's currently in the Outskirts. It'll stay there until flushed out.

Acebob said:

Avi_dreader said:

Cantuse said:


Without having looked at the card, it seems to me that Undead are treated like Spawn monsters for the purposes of not counting against monster limit. If they are placed in Arkham, they are not counted towards the number of monsters that are in play before adding to outskirts. If they are put in the outskirts, they are treated like any other monster



Card unseen, it would kinda seem like Undead monsters from the Cup would never go into the Outskirts (without special circumstances). Most monsters have a value of "+1" regarding the Monster Limit when they're drawn. If you've hit the Limit, you can't add any more, and they go to the Outskirts. If you draw an Undead monster, it now has an effective value of "0" (like Spawns), and it can be placed normally.

The Monster Limit affects the Outskirts, but the Outskirts doesn't really have any effect on the Monster Limit. It's the overflow with its own rules. If an Undead happens to be in there when the Rumor fails...it's just still there.

Somehow I think this has more to do with having a "custom content mindset" than anything else. Such a...um...rubbery mind has been naturally flexing the "rules" for some time; it might be more challenging to get it to squish back into specific molds?

jgt7771 said:

Card unseen, it would kinda seem like Undead monsters from the Cup would never go into the Outskirts (without special circumstances). Most monsters have a value of "+1" regarding the Monster Limit when they're drawn. If you've hit the Limit, you can't add any more, and they go to the Outskirts. If you draw an Undead monster, it now has an effective value of "0" (like Spawns), and it can be placed normally.

The Monster Limit affects the Outskirts, but the Outskirts doesn't really have any effect on the Monster Limit. It's the overflow with its own rules. If an Undead happens to be in there when the Rumor fails...it's just still there.

Somehow I think this has more to do with having a "custom content mindset" than anything else. Such a...um...rubbery mind has been naturally flexing the "rules" for some time; it might be more challenging to get it to squish back into specific molds?



Uh, no ;') There is no precedent for this sort of situation. That's why I'm saying FFG needs to make an official ruling on it. Spawn monsters have never been able to go to the Outskirts or be in the Cup before (outside of custom content, which required creating rules so that people knew how to play in these sorts of situations).

Saying that undead in the outskirts stay there is an easy fix. But that might not be the one they go for. They might actually have you designate a spot to place, check the monster, and only place it in the outskirts if it's not a spawn monster. Which would be a pain in the ass... Or they could go for something totally different.

Avi_dreader said:

jgt7771 said:

Card unseen, it would kinda seem like Undead monsters from the Cup would never go into the Outskirts (without special circumstances). Most monsters have a value of "+1" regarding the Monster Limit when they're drawn. If you've hit the Limit, you can't add any more, and they go to the Outskirts. If you draw an Undead monster, it now has an effective value of "0" (like Spawns), and it can be placed normally.

The Monster Limit affects the Outskirts, but the Outskirts doesn't really have any effect on the Monster Limit. It's the overflow with its own rules. If an Undead happens to be in there when the Rumor fails...it's just still there.

Somehow I think this has more to do with having a "custom content mindset" than anything else. Such a...um...rubbery mind has been naturally flexing the "rules" for some time; it might be more challenging to get it to squish back into specific molds?



Uh, no ;') There is no precedent for this sort of situation. That's why I'm saying FFG needs to make an official ruling on it. Spawn monsters have never been able to go to the Outskirts or be in the Cup before (outside of custom content, which required creating rules so that people knew how to play in these sorts of situations).

Saying that undead in the outskirts stay there is an easy fix. But that might not be the one they go for. They might actually have you designate a spot to place, check the monster, and only place it in the outskirts if it's not a spawn monster. Which would be a pain in the ass... Or they could go for something totally different.

If it was the designer's intent for the monsters to be put somewhere crazy or to take them out of the outskirts and put in play or back in the bag or whatever, it would have been said on the card. If a designer was creating the card and that was their intent, something as major as that surely would not have been over looked. I think you're just making this entirely too complicated. If saying that the undead stay in the outskirts is an easy fix, then its probably the right one.

jgt7771 said:

Card unseen, it would kinda seem like Undead monsters from the Cup would never go into the Outskirts (without special circumstances). Most monsters have a value of "+1" regarding the Monster Limit when they're drawn. If you've hit the Limit, you can't add any more, and they go to the Outskirts. If you draw an Undead monster, it now has an effective value of "0" (like Spawns), and it can be placed normally.

Where did I say they WERE Spawns? Does the card say that they're Spawns? I said LIKE Spawns, and only one aspect of them.

If you're at the Monster Limit, you still place Spawns, right? So instead of picking them off some sheet, if you draw an Undead out of the Cup, you place it just like you would a Spawn (presumably at an Open Gate, or maybe a Street) regardless of the Monster Limit. But it's still a standard monster. If it's not in the Outskirts, the Monster Limit will never force it in there; if it is in the Outskirts, it will just stay there (like any monster) until removed. And then it just goes back in the Cup.

Dude, you've been playing with custom Spawns for so long, you're bringing extra debate firepower that you don't need. "You must unlearn what you have learned."

Acebob said:

I've played a few games with the Miskatonic University institution and I felt the same way you did about the bureau. The abilities are nice and pretty strong, but they have a high cost.

Only the Organized Crime Institution seems to make the game significantly easier for the investigators. Unlike the Bureau and Miskatonic, those abilities only require money to use.

Hooray! My copy arrived today!

Obviously I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but I imagine the best part about the Miskatonic institution will be the Miskatonic Student/Alumnus ability - rather than anything having to do with expedition markers. The student card represents a straight upgrade over the Science Building trade-in ability, since you gain 2 clues plus the opportunity to gain a clue each turn if you're in specific locations. Heck, you even get to have an Administration Building encounter and get the trade-in, unlike the Science Building where you lose your encounter if you trade-in.

It's also nice that it's linked to the Administration Building, since you can lose the trade-in ability of the Science Building whenever a gate appears on it. I'm not sure if it's worth the cost to flip it to the Alumnus side, but gaining a skill and getting 2 clues a turn is pretty tempting. On the other hand, spending those trophies at the Science Building as a Miskatonic Student will net you 3 clues (2 from trade-in and 1 from student on the following upkeep). So it's probably only worth it to flip it to Alumnus if you really want a random skill - perhaps if you're playing Lola.

As for the Bureau of Investigations, it's hard to see that getting much use at all. 2 clues per token is a steep price, especially when you're guaranteed to lose an agent token whenever a monster occupies the same space - and regardless of whether the monster gets returned to the box! And the ally power will only be worth it on rare occasions.

Acebob said:

Avi_dreader said:

If it was the designer's intent for the monsters to be put somewhere crazy or to take them out of the outskirts and put in play or back in the bag or whatever, it would have been said on the card. If a designer was creating the card and that was their intent, something as major as that surely would not have been over looked. I think you're just making this entirely too complicated. If saying that the undead stay in the outskirts is an easy fix, then its probably the right one.



Well, putting it somewhere crazy, no, but not thinking through an idea fully, maybe (it wouldn't be the first time). That being said, I found your argument fairly persuasive, and I'd be inclined to believe that the easy fix is probably the right one. But honestly. I'm not entirely sure. I sure hope so though. I'd like official clarification though.

jgt7771 said:

jgt7771 said:

Card unseen, it would kinda seem like Undead monsters from the Cup would never go into the Outskirts (without special circumstances). Most monsters have a value of "+1" regarding the Monster Limit when they're drawn. If you've hit the Limit, you can't add any more, and they go to the Outskirts. If you draw an Undead monster, it now has an effective value of "0" (like Spawns), and it can be placed normally.

Where did I say they WERE Spawns? Does the card say that they're Spawns? I said LIKE Spawns, and only one aspect of them.

If you're at the Monster Limit, you still place Spawns, right? So instead of picking them off some sheet, if you draw an Undead out of the Cup, you place it just like you would a Spawn (presumably at an Open Gate, or maybe a Street) regardless of the Monster Limit. But it's still a standard monster. If it's not in the Outskirts, the Monster Limit will never force it in there; if it is in the Outskirts, it will just stay there (like any monster) until removed. And then it just goes back in the Cup.

Dude, you've been playing with custom Spawns for so long, you're bringing extra debate firepower that you don't need. "You must unlearn what you have learned."



Now I'm really confused...

Okay, so the text of the card says "All monsters now have the Endless ability and Undead monsters no longer count toward the monster limit." Hm. That phrasing might get around the issue? Kind of? But I'm not sure. I'd still like official clarification here.

The issue (in my mind) is that you don't know what you're drawing until it's placed into the outskirts. You don't peek at monsters before placing them. You assign locations (gates or outskirts) and then place. So what happens if they're designated to go to the outskirts and then you see that they're undead? Also, what would happen if it's a card that specifies a location for monster placement but you're at the limit? These aren't rhetorical questions by the way (not that I usually ask rhetorical questions unless they are ironically ridiculous), I don't know.

Avi_dreader said:

The issue (in my mind) is that you don't know what you're drawing until it's placed into the outskirts. You don't peek at monsters before placing them. You assign locations (gates or outskirts) and then place. So what happens if they're designated to go to the outskirts and then you see that they're undead? Also, what would happen if it's a card that specifies a location for monster placement but you're at the limit? These aren't rhetorical questions by the way (not that I usually ask rhetorical questions unless they are ironically ridiculous), I don't know.

Aha! Now this might be coming down to..."style".

I DO "peek" at monsters before I place them. Now let me clarify that over the loud RED ALERT that just went off in your brain. When I trained my Cultists in the Mythos Phase, I did it in short declaratives for everything. So here's how basic monster placement goes:

"Gate on [Location]." Place Gate Token. "Monster on Gate." Pull monster. Look at monster. "Ghoul." Place monster. "Doom Token." Doom Token placed.

When surges happen:

"Monster to [surging Gate Location]." Pull monster. Look at monster. "Ghoul." Place monster. "Monster to [Gate Location]." Pull monster. Look at monster. "Ghost. Monster Limit Reached. Monster to Outskirts." Place monster in Outskirts.

The way I do things, I would simply put that Ghost on the Gate instead of the Outskirts, with a "...but Undead don't apply."

All completely within the rules, although perhaps a bit more theatrical than you speedier players. So my head never saw a problem. I wonder what YOUR procedure is for pulling monsters.

Avi has a point about monster surges. Though, jgt, your method might do the trick: to designate a specific "order" that you tackle the gates.

Luckily, this rumor can't be expected to be seen, let alone failed, too often, when using multiple expansions.

jgt7771 said:

Avi_dreader said:

All completely within the rules, although perhaps a bit more theatrical than you speedier players. So my head never saw a problem. I wonder what YOUR procedure is for pulling monsters.

I figure out how many monsters need to be drawn. Then I figure out how close I am to the limit, then I draw enough monsters to get to the limit. I designate the order of gates they will be placed on and place them from top to bottom in that order. Once at the limit I calculate how many remaining monsters will raise the terror. If there aren't enough to raise the terror, I draw remaining monsters by counting them out by finger (without looking for them) often after swirling around the monster chits once or twice, especially if monsters were recently thrown back in the cup. That way I don't have to shuffle monsters back into the cup from the terror rising, well, any more than necessary. I realize that wasn't expressed as clearly as I'd like, but hopefully you got the idea.

Avi_dreader said:

I realize that wasn't expressed as clearly as I'd like, but hopefully you got the idea.

I absolutely get it. For expediency's sake, you "bottom-line" multiple monster draws. And you've probably been doing that for years, which is why you've been seeing a problem with the Rumor. You do realize that you've been "cutting corners" when you draw from the Cup like that, right? End result is legitimately the same...but you haven't been "showing your work". gui%C3%B1o.gif

If you actually fail this Rumor, you're just going to have to put down the calculator and do the long division by hand. You're going to have to draw out each monster individually from the Cup, to see if any Undead bypasses the Limit, and gets placed normally. Problem solved.

jgt7771 said:

Avi_dreader said:

I realize that wasn't expressed as clearly as I'd like, but hopefully you got the idea.

I absolutely get it. For expediency's sake, you "bottom-line" multiple monster draws. And you've probably been doing that for years, which is why you've been seeing a problem with the Rumor. You do realize that you've been "cutting corners" when you draw from the Cup like that, right? End result is legitimately the same...but you haven't been "showing your work". gui%C3%B1o.gif

If you actually fail this Rumor, you're just going to have to put down the calculator and do the long division by hand. You're going to have to draw out each monster individually from the Cup, to see if any Undead bypasses the Limit, and gets placed normally. Problem solved.



No no, that's not the issue at all. The issue is that you are supposed to designate monster placement before revealing them. Once you discover that the monster going to the outskirts is undead, what do you do? Where do you place it? Problem not solved ;'D

Are you deciding where to place monsters after looking at them? You're not supposed to do that.

I think it's simple. This time, rather than designating placement of those that you know will appear and Outskirting the rest, you simply choose, before drawing , the order that the gates will receive monsters (so long as the surging one is first). You then draw one at a time, in order. This will prevent you from strategising based on what you draw but save you from confusion with regards to which monsters count against the limit and which do not.

Tibs said:

I think it's simple. This time, rather than designating placement of those that you know will appear and Outskirting the rest, you simply choose, before drawing , the order that the gates will receive monsters (so long as the surging one is first). You then draw one at a time, in order. This will prevent you from strategising based on what you draw but save you from confusion with regards to which monsters count against the limit and which do not.



I think it's clear by process of elimination of possibilities.

Though while for simplicity's sake the investigators have control over which gates definitely receive monsters and which don't, they are also supposed to be completely unaware of what the monsters actually are until it's too late to make any changes. The above procedure I described may seem uncomfortably more time-consuming than the typical veteran's monster surge, but it maintains both of these properties.

In short, if your procedure doesn't allow investigators control over which gates will definitely receive monsters (as opposed to, in this case, may receive, depending on which turn out to be undead), and/or allows the investigators knowledge of any of the drawn monsters in such a way that it even minimally has a chance of affecting their decisions on placement, then it is improper.

Tibs said:

In short, if your procedure doesn't allow investigators control over which gates will definitely receive monsters (as opposed to, in this case, may receive, depending on which turn out to be undead), and/or allows the investigators knowledge of any of the drawn monsters in such a way that it even minimally has a chance of affecting their decisions on placement, then it is improper.



Maybe ;') maybe not. I actually kind of hope it's officially the long way (even though it's a bit of a hassle), because that would make for more interesting consequences. I don't think it'd be a big deal if the undead infestation only got one or two monsters in Arkham (if any) then stopped. Not that the all monsters are endless wouldn't be a significant pain.

I'll probably play it this way until there's official word.

Even if you had designated them at first to go the outskirts, when you see that they are undead they would go on the main board (not to the outskirts after all.)

Exactly. I'm saying that you assign gate order first, and toss things into the Outskirts as appropriate.

The Black Goat herald has a similar issue because your surges are supposed to be half hexes. How do you determine what goes where?

Shub-Niggurath said:

Even if you had designated them at first to go the outskirts, when you see that they are undead they would go on the main board (not to the outskirts after all.)



The problem is, if I remember the procedure for monster placement correctly, this is creating a step. There is no second relocating step. The monsters were directed to go to the outskirts before being viewed. No gate location was selected for them. Once they are revealed we're supposed to pick a location for them? And here's the thing... If you say you should pick a location they might go to before you place them in the outskirts, you're actually creating something that isn't in the rules (I think). And so I'll continue to say FFG will need to address this directly or have people dealing with this in different ways.