Thats the unique thing about TOI, which is different than other games where the AT gun and crew are an inseparable unit. In TOI the gun is just a piece of equipment, and whatever squad is available can be make the gun operational. Thats actually more realistic, but it can get confusing which squad is able to operate the gun.

Now I thought about having a base made for the AT guns, which the gun stays on, but has a couple of holes for figures to be placed in like a regular squad base, and in effect this is an AT gun squad, which is its own unit. The unit would take casualties like a regular infantry squad, and when the last infantry figure is eliminated, the AT gun base can be either reinforced by another squad transfering its infantry figures to the AT gun base, if in the same hex, just as they could for another squad.

The AT gun on the base would not be considered a vehicle trait but rather the infantry or soldier trait, and would provide a +2 cover as long as the AT gun is not selected for casualties. The AT gun would be worth 2 casualties, and the entire base would have the AT gun, plus 3 holes for infantry figures, thus requiring 5 hits total to destroy to eliminate the AT gun base too.

I agree, a gun with crew would've been ideal from the outset.

Brummbar said:

Me too. I have no idea why they came up with the idea to have an entire combat squad operate a six-pounder.

Given that, one could even model an 88 and other large guns with more crew holes, and the smaller AT and infantry guns with fewer holes.

Such bases would also relieve the congestion that is now caused by guns with their operating squads.

Now that the guns have been produced as they are, FFG could still resolve this by producing stand-alone artillery men with small bases to be grouped around the existing guns.

Brummbar said:

That would not be good. I would give the appropriate vehicles the Gun Transport trait, opening up a transport slot (tow hook) that can only be filled by guns.

New Unit: AT gun Squad:

The AT gun figure may be placed on the center of a squad base, and 2 holes filled with 2 infantry figures. This becomes an AT gun squad, which is counted as a regular infantry squad for stacking purposes.

Loading and Unloading AT gun squads :

Now you can load the AT gun squad, and another typical infantry squad in a truck like normal, because the AT gun squad is a single unit, not 2 units. And when unloading, both squads can be unloaded, and in the same hex with the truck, which is better than 2 separate infantry squads AND a separate AT gun, which in TOI rules violates stacking limits, if the truck is in the same hex too.

Movement values for AT gun squads :

For the 88 flak AT gun squad, the squad has 0 mps. It requires a transport to move the squad. For the other smaller AT gun squads, 2 mps. It costs no mps to load or unload an AT gun squad with the limitation that the AT squad must not have moved, and may not both load and unload in the same turn. It costs one action to load or unload the AT gun squad, but if unloading, the AT gun squad is considered unfatigued and may be placed in Op fire by using a 2nd action. An AT gun squad which moves itself, may not use Move and Fire action. An AT gun squad capable of self movement, may move into or out of an entrenchment by expending an additional mp.

Carrying capacity of Halftracks and Trucks :

A Halftrack may carry either a regular infantry squad, OR an AT gun squad. The truck can carry two regular squads as normal, OR one AT gun squad, and one regular type infantry squad, thus being allowed to unload both of them in the same hex with the truck without violating stacking limits.

Movement reduction for Trucks carrying 88 flak gun squad :

Trucks carrying an 88 flak gun squad, or other larger artillery field gun, have very limited movement across country, so maybe clear non road terrain cost to 2 mps . On roads, the mp rate should be 1/2 mp per road. (This is rate was previously agreed by many on forum as a more realistic rate for trucks)

Cover value and Unit trait for AT gun Squads :

The AT gun squad is given a +1 or +2 cover for the shield of the AT gun and is not considered as a vehicle trait, but as an infantry trait. This will make tanks have to use their lower AS(attack strength) and range values to engage the AT gun squad, which is more realistic, as the AT gun was not quite as easy to spot except for the 88 flak gun, which could be given the lesser +1 cover, while 75mm and 6 pdr AT gun squads get +2 cover (smaller target silouette). (Note: this has not been playtested, so it may be too much cover, especially if allowing AT gun squad to use entrenchments)

Op Fire after being Unloaded :

The idea of being able to place the AT gun and crews into Op fire after unloading can be easily done with another action, as an AT gun squad will be unfatigued when unloaded as per the conventional TOI rules concerning transportation of regular infantry squads.

So what you wargaming fanatics think?

VanCamper said:

I like it. I would make the slots more variable though, depending on the survivability you want to achieve and on the size of the gun.

Having monsters such as the 88 immobile unless towed is also very good.

VanCamper said:

It would still cost MP to unload. The gun cannot perform a Move and Shoot. So in essence, the problem returns of the unit being fatigued on exit, something I have been trying to avoid.

As much as I wish the AT gun unit came with it's own crew, the rules that are in place do actually work just fine. We just need to work within those parameters.

For the record, I've resolved my rule exploit outlined above (ie. fresh squad already in truck could Unlimber a gun just loaded). The actions would simply need to indicate that an AT gun cannot be Limbered and Unlimbered in the same round.

I like that idea to leave the gun on the board, backwards to the Truck or HT towing it, so as to indicate it is limbered and being towed. Makes it easy to identify on the board, rather than having to check the no. of the transport marker under the truck.

The original rule has the AT having the equipment trait, yet for targeting, the reference sheet shows the vehicle icon, which mean tanks engage the AT gun like it was a vehicle. If players agree that an AT gun can be placed in an entrenchment, then that gives an AT gun a +2 extra cover, so along with its own armor value of+ 2, and if in woods +2, then +6 total cover is good enough, especially, if CF rule of +1/additional unit is used.

As I understand the proposed limber rule for AT guns:

1. It requires one action to activate a Truck( or Halftrack), to perform an advance action, which allows the Truck to either begin in a hex with an AT gun and a fresh squad, or move into the hex, and then the squad is activated with a 2nd action, expends 2 mps to limber the AT gun, and then squad loads onto the Truck. To make it easy to distinguish the Truck as towing the gun, the gun can be kept on board with the Truck, turned in opposite direction at the back of Truck. The squad loaded, is removed off board and placed on a transport marker.

2. The Truck now being loaded, and towing gun, may move as many more hexes, as its remaining mps allow, and end its movement still loaded, as the squad that was loaded is fatigued, and a gun cannot both be limbered and unlimbered in the same turn.

3. In the next turn, if a Truck/Halftrack begins the turn already loaded, it may be activated with an advance action, to move up to its full mp, ending its move in a hex, where the squad which is loaded (and considered fresh), may be unloaded, expending 2 mps, and may unlimber the gun also, without being fatigued. Then the squad may be placed in Op fire mode using a 2nd action, which allows the gun to be fired in Op fire in this same turn.

4. A halftrack, which is used to limber an AT gun, may load one squad also. A Truck which normally could load 2 squads,may not load a 2nd squad, if also towing a gun. So in effect, both Halftracks and Trucks have just one squad capacity when towing guns.

Other questions: A: If the hex in which the AT gun is unlimbered contains an unoccupied entrenchment, can the AT gun be placed on the entrenchment marker (ie. an improved position ), as part of the normal unlimbering action in which the squad expends 2 mps to both unload itself and unlimber the gun.

B. If it is decided that an AT gun can be inside a fortification, bunker, or building, then, IMO, the arc of fire should be limited to perhaps 180 degrees, and designating which hexside is the "front" center hex.

C. Should an engineer squad be able to make an entrenchment for an unlimbered gun, after which, an entrenchment marker is placed under the gun, signifying it is now an improved position.