As a house rule, I think equipment units should be allowed to move more than a single hex when they are towed ; i.e. the fresh unit it is attached to is a squad being transported (truck, half-track, bren carrier...) - they follow the transport vehicule (and thus count against stacking limit).
Off the top of my head, the transported squad should then be fatigued to untow and deploy the equipment.
Do any of you have tried a similar house rule ? What do you think ?
jdavias said:
As a house rule, I think equipment units should be allowed to move more than a single hex when they are towed ; i.e. the fresh unit it is attached to is a squad being transported (truck, half-track, bren carrier...) - they follow the transport vehicule (and thus count against stacking limit).
Off the top of my head, the transported squad should then be fatigued to untow and deploy the equipment.
Do any of you have tried a similar house rule ? What do you think ?
I sue the following house rule.
Gun Transport: This vehicle may transport one squad and one gun. As one action, fatigue the gun and its
infantry unit in the same hex as the vehicle to limber or unlimber the gun.
We've tried a general rule of 1/2 mv (rounded up) for the towing vehicle.
I think I would probably do something like the following:
Trucks can tow AT equipment, it costs 2 MP to load or unload the equipment. A truck towing equipment can only transport 1 squad. -1 MP for the truck while towing equipment.
The thinking behind it is as follows; The 2 MP cost to load and unload it represents the truck crew breaking the gun down hitching it up and tossing any associated gear for it in the back of the truck. Since the equipment and setup gear is in the back of the truck it consumes the space one squad would occupy leaving room for only one squad. The -1 MP while towing represents some additional care in transport while towing something that isn't meant to move at the top speed of the vehicle without risk.
sloejack said:
I think I would probably do something like the following:
Trucks can tow AT equipment, it costs 2 MP to load or unload the equipment. A truck towing equipment can only transport 1 squad. -1 MP for the truck while towing equipment.
The thinking behind it is as follows; The 2 MP cost to load and unload it represents the truck crew breaking the gun down hitching it up and tossing any associated gear for it in the back of the truck. Since the equipment and setup gear is in the back of the truck it consumes the space one squad would occupy leaving room for only one squad. The -1 MP while towing represents some additional care in transport while towing something that isn't meant to move at the top speed of the vehicle without risk.
I like the -1 Movement.
Not so sure about the truck being able to hitch or unhitch a gun without the help of the gun crew, though.
I got the impression that there wasn't a gun crew really since it required a squad to operate the equipment. Thinking a driver and a buddy can do breakdown and stowage as well as un-hitch and setup.
I think the 2 MP cost should maybe be on the squad with the equipment attached, rather than on the transport (and thus would have to start their activation in the hex where the transport is). The -1 MP on the transport unit is fine by me but I prefer to fatigue the squad for untowing, otherwise they could be able to fire the gun immediately after being transported which sounds wrong to me.
jdavias said:
The -1 MP on the transport unit is fine by me but I prefer to fatigue the squad for untowing, otherwise they could be able to fire the gun immediately after being transported which sounds wrong to me.
I agree.
jdavias said:
I think the 2 MP cost should maybe be on the squad with the equipment attached, rather than on the transport (and thus would have to start their activation in the hex where the transport is). The -1 MP on the transport unit is fine by me but I prefer to fatigue the squad for untowing, otherwise they could be able to fire the gun immediately after being transported which sounds wrong to me.
Actually it couldn't. Trucks have 4 MP so it would burn 2 of them to mount or unmount it. so it can either hitch up or unhitch in the turn but certainly not both. Second if a squad was transported with it, it could also not use the equipment in the same turn since in order to exit the truck and do anything would at best be a move and shoot which equipment can't be involved in since it can only be used by a fresh squad or a squad in op-fire in the same hex.
As best as I can see it with the way I crafted the rule, there is no way to effectively move it and use it in the same turn unless it's already hitched up and you are going a relatively short distance (2 hexes or 6 all road hexes) and there's a fresh squad waiting in the target hex to use it.
I agree with slojack, in most cases the towed gun cannnot be moved and still shoot. Further it should not be able to, as the gun needs to be elevated and sighted , otherwise you are just as likely to blow up your own truck or one of your own luckless friendly squads. Shades of FRIENDLY FIRE or OOPS or sorry we killed you but it was only with the best intentions.
How about this:
Gun Transport: This vehicle may transport one squad and one gun. To limber the gun, the vehicle must be in the same hex as the gun. As one action, place both the gun and the squad entering the vehicle on the off-board transport and fatigue both the gun and the squad. To unlimber the gun, as one action, fatigue the gun and the squad leaving the vehicle and place both the gun and the squad in the same hex as the vehicle.
This would avoid doing something (removing movement points) from a unit that is not activated by the action (the transport vehicle).
I think that provides too much mobility for the equipment, and also burns up too many rounds transporting it to make it useful.
But I would suggest setting up a few map boards and trying it out. Set up a small scale engagement and play it through and see if the behavior is what you desire.
Some additional thinking, you can't fatigue the equipment since the equipment on it's own has no action or movement, it requires some other unit to move it and fire it. From the DotF rules, it effectively costs a single squad 3 MP to move the equipment 1 hex which they would have to pay for every hex they move. I think the whole reason for even thinking about using vehicle movement for equipment is because we all agree that amount of movement is too slow to be able to change the position of the gun meaningfully in the short amount of time that a scenario allows. Burning a whole round to load, and then another whole round to unload takes the gun out of play for far too long to be effective IMO. So there needs to be some balance of it costing just enough so that it can't be abused but not so much so that it would never be used.
I could'nt agree more with your reasoning about what the rule should achieve and wether or not it feels right in that matter...
One thing about transporting a towed gun, I think it should stay on the board (as opposed to being removed and placed off board near the corresponding transport marker) for stacking purpose.
My group has played it this way and are very satisfied with the way it works. It also seems to be realistic as to real life.
The truck can tow the gun at 4 mp after it is limbered (hitched up). The truck also carries the ammo and a squad which serves as gun crew. To limber the gun and to get into the truck fatigues the squad, but not the truck. The truck can then move to where you want the gun, paying attention to terrain cost and the 4mp. When the truck gets where you want the gun it is fatigued, but not the squad, unless they are already fatigued. To unlimber, the squad gets out of the truck unlimbers the gun, preps it to fire, (unloading the ammo, sighting and elevating the gun) The squad is now fatigued, the gun unlimbered, and pointing in the direction desired. The gun will be ready to fire next action phase. The truck will also be free to move away in the next action phase.
This assumes the truck, gun and squad started in the same hex and were not fatigued. If the truck had to move to get to the gun, it will be fatigued and not able to move after limbering. The next action phase the truck and the squad are fresh and ready to do their thing. We found it best to keep the truck with the gun unless you will not be moving the gun again and you really, really need that truck.
I'm working through some optional ideas for my Vehicle Card series and would really like to revisit this topic. While there are some very good ideas and points raised here I'm thinking of taking a slightly different route and one that is based on some or my own personal experience.
So here is what I am thinking...
AT Transport – A fresh squad in the same hex as an AT gun (fatigued or fresh) and truck may ‘ limber ’ the gun to the truck for transport. The squad enters the truck fatigued and the gun is considered limbered. The truck may move if not already fatigued. To unlimber , the squad, which must be fresh, and gun are placed in the same hex as the truck and both immediately enter Op-Fire. Both are subject to any enemy Op-Fires on unlimbering. While being transported, the gun counts for stacking purposes.
And why I am thinking it...
When packing up a gun, the squad would essentially be fatigued, it takes some effort. The vehicle doesn't really participate so it shouldn't be penalized in it's movement. When springing into action a gun can be deployed very quickly (esp. AT Guns) so fatiguing is a little harsh for an unlimber but being able to fire as soon as it comes off is a little too potent. Op-Fire seems to be just about right. The crew and gun can't fire at anything immediate but are ready for any further action. Likewise, if they deploy in a hot spot, well...it's not a good idea if someone is in op fire. The other thing that works well here is no need to calculate movement points. Note; this system would allow the AT gun to fire (with fresh squad) and still get limbered.
Any problems with this that anyone can see?
That sounds pretty good, I have also made some house rules regarding towing that I have been testing in some of my scenarios.
The aim was to make equipment more mobile but give it a draw back such as highlighting the beifeits of tanks and the time in relocating and seting up AT guns (i didnt want AT to act like a tank) anyway here are the rules I have been trying (they relate to trucks atm as the scenarios im working on are trucks that are transporting the guns, but it can be adapted to halftracks)
Towed AT gun rules:
(Limbered - is attached to a transport truck) (unlimbered - is seperate from the transport)
- Limber AT gun, as an action fatigue an AT gun in the same hex as a transport truck, use the numbered transport tokens as you would with transporting squads (the transport may then make its own action if it has not spent any movement points this round)
- Unlimber AT gun, as an action fatigue an AT gun that is limbered to a transport, the AT gun is then considered unlimbered. (if the transport spent movement points in the same round before the unlimber action of the ATgun it is also fatigued)
- A limbered AT gun can not be targeted by an enemy unit (only area attcks affect AT guns directly), the attack targets the transport. If the transport is destoryed the AT gun becomes lightly damaged.
- A limbered AT gun that is in the hex of a area attack rolls its own defence dice (for timing issues roll transport defence dice first then AT gun, as if the transport is destroyed the AT gun is lightly damaged before rolling it defence)
- AT guns may start the game limbered.
the transport truck holds all of its other abilities listed in the base game rules.
High time for an official op-card or even as part of an advanced ruleset., if you ask me. Advanced rules should also include facing, front and rear defense, more realistic rules regarding certain terrain types (hedgerows, balkas), possibly revamped rules for hills and LOS etc.
Brummbar said:
AT Transport – A fresh squad in the same hex as an AT gun (fatigued or fresh) and truck may ‘ limber ’ the gun to the truck for transport. The squad enters the truck fatigued and the gun is considered limbered. The truck may move if not already fatigued. To unlimber , the squad, which must be fresh, and gun are placed in the same hex as the truck and both immediately enter Op-Fire. Both are subject to any enemy Op-Fires on unlimbering. While being transported, the gun counts for stacking purposes.
I like it!
I would not count the limbered gun for stacking though, since it takes up way less space limbered than deployed with ammo crates stacked around, crew running around and all that.
Aussie_Digger said:
- A limbered AT gun can not be targeted by an enemy unit (only area attcks affect AT guns directly), the attack targets the transport. If the transport is destoryed the AT gun becomes lightly damaged.
- A limbered AT gun that is in the hex of a area attack rolls its own defence dice (for timing issues roll transport defence dice first then AT gun, as if the transport is destroyed the AT gun is lightly damaged before rolling it defence)
- AT guns may start the game limbered.
Very good points here Aussie_Digger!
Same here KlausFritsch "I would not count the limbered gun for stacking though, since it takes up way less space limbered than deployed with ammo crates stacked around, crew running around and all that. "
I'll amend the rule to reflect these.
I guess the next question on this would be...can Halftracks tow AT guns? The smaller guns could easily be transported by halftracks but an 88 couldn't, it needed a Prime Mover. Along those lines...should the gun count as a passenger? ie. can a truck haul a gun and still carry 2 squads. For halftracks to haul guns, this would be a requirement under the rule as it currently stands.
Thoughts?
The AT gun is equipment, which is presumably attached to the squad which makes it an AT gun unit. The AT gun unit, then, may be loaded/unloaded like a regular infantry squad, except that it requires 4 pts to load or unload, rather than 2 pts. Combine that with allowing the AT gun unit after being unloaded to be in Op fire mode, and IMO, thats a simple way to get the AT gun into action without making it a mobile assault gun.
For gamesake, the halftracks should be allowed to load/unload 88 flak gun along with 1 squad as the crew. A card and a token can be made to designate which halftracks are prime movers.
VanCamper said:
The AT gun unit, then, may be loaded/unloaded like a regular infantry squad, except that it requires 4 pts to load or unload, rather than 2 pts. Combine that with allowing the AT gun unit after being unloaded to be in Op fire mode, and IMO, thats a simple way to get the AT gun into action without making it a mobile assault gun.
Making the Unlimber cost 4 MP would in essence fatigue the squad making the Op-Fire for the gun practically useless. That is why I propose the Op-Fire on Unlimber. It offers some options without being equivalent to a self-propelled.
Yes, limbering and unlimbering actions is a must for describing towing of AT guns. Moving AT guns should be possible but not without an effort. As Brummbar said, you dont want to make half-track+AT gun an mobile tank destroyer.
Brummbar said:
Making the Unlimber cost 4 MP would in essence fatigue the squad making the Op-Fire for the gun practically useless. That is why I propose the Op-Fire on Unlimber. It offers some options without being equivalent to a self-propelled.
Its a little confusing to me, so a few questions how it works:
So, no additional movement cost to limber or unlimber the gun right? So a Truck or HT (carriers) can move into a hex with an AT gun and one squad, and if the squad is fresh, the squad can limber the AT gun, and then load also into the carrier, expending just 2 pts as in normal transportation. The squad is then fatigued. This sequence requires 2 actions yes? One to activate the carrier, and one to activate the squad to load and limber gun.
A carrier which begins a new turn, already loaded with squad and gun, can move up to its full? movement, yes? And then the carrier ending its movement, the fresh squad may be unloaded (does NOT require an additional action right?), and the AT gun is unlimbered along with squad, and the AT gun is then placed in Op fire mode, while the squad, remains fresh, not fatigued. All of this with one action? or does it require a 2nd action to place AT gun in Op fire?
.
Good question VanCamper, I should've been more clear about how the actions work.
As long as the squad is fresh, it can Limber a gun to a truck (still thinking about the halftrack) in the same hex. The gun and truck could be fresh or fatigued (or in Op-Fire? hmmm) when the squad Limbers.
Limbering would be the action. It would hook the gun to the truck and load the squad in the truck.
The truck could move it's full MP if it wasn't already fatigued as an action as it normally would, nothing new there.
If the squad is fresh that is in the truck it could, as an Unlimber action, remove the gun and dismount causing both the squad and gun to be in Op-Fire (this is like a two for one action...but both being in Op-Fire isn't that powerful).
I would think that Limber and Unlimber would become specific actions unto themselves like Move or Op-Fire etc...
Hope that makes sense?
Now here is an exploit I've thought of. What if the truck is already loaded with a squad? It could pick up an AT gun that just fired with it's crew (squad), move then using the fresh squad already loaded could deploy the AT gun with that fresh squad into Op-Fire. Perhaps the AT gun should count like a passenger to avoid this problem (there is a lot of equipment/ammo that comes with guns). This would mean that on a truck you could only ever have the gun and crew (squad) but would prevent halftracks from being a prime mover as they could only carry one.