Don't forget that Dam doesn't have Epic Battle. It makes final combat 16.5% harder, 150% more fun, and 2350% more satisfying when you win.

All right everyone! The new report has been finished, and is available here:

Arkham Horror Statistics Reports

This new document has 8 pages displaying the results I regularly report (accessible at the bottom of the page).

You can use the File and View menu options to export the spreadsheet or to display it full-screen.

Using google spreadsheets will make it a bit easier to submit in the future, and it will be much easier to read.

Enjoy everyone!

Knuckles Eki said:

Quoting myself from another thread, re: final combat and gearing:

"I'm just saying there will be very little challenge left in the game. I'm above .500 in final combat without ever gearing up. Okay, so a few have been very close calls, but even 50-50 without gearing doesn't really speak of difficulties (4-investigator games for me, stats show 1-3 investigator final combats are even easier).

From base game, Azzy of course doesn't care about gearing up, but he's an utter pansy as is, so doesn't matter. Only Cthulhu will be so-so after gearing up, everything else you should easily beat. From DH, Tsathoggua is nasty, everything else gets wasted easy. From KH, gearing doesn't really help against Eihort if you keep rolling 1s, and A-N might be a problem. From IH, Quachil Uttaus is a *****, everything else goes down.

So you have max 5-6 GOOs out of 20 that you can possibly lose to. If you draw any of the others, just GG, call it a win and re-set for another game."

I take it you don't use KW's suggested final combat Clue-variant then, Knuckles? In your example, 1 seal = investigator can spend 1 Clue per round in final combat.

Tibs said:

Weird, 15 minutes ago worked for me, now it doesn't.

EDIT: Now it does again. Try right-clicking and copying the link's address, then copy-paste and/or refresh, that got it working for me.

Sorry guys. I was formatting it around the time you left those messages. I might have booted you by accident or something.

Tibs said:

Still doesn't work for me, unfortunately.

I always end up on a page asking me to sign in to my google account - which I neither have nor want.

Edit: It's working now: I'm not sure what I changed to make it work ...

Anyway, this is really looking great! Thanks for all your hard work, Tibs!

Today (errm, yesterday), I finally received my German copy of Kingsport. Tomorrow (well, today, actually) we're going to give it a first test. I hope I can convince my group to use all of the optional rules

Wonderful set out, Tibs. Genius. Nyarlathotep be pleased with your work, Dark Pharaoh.

Dam said:

I must be playing a different game. Whatever I've been playing, final combat against Yog-Sothoth can't be described as "easy", and Atlach is more than "maybe a problem". If Quachil Uttlaus is the only ancient one from Innsmouth that you think doesn't automatically go down in final combat, then...uhhh...

GrooveChamp said:

Those are with gearing up, hoarding Clues, getting a Blessing, getting everyone to full stats, etc. My final combats with IH GOOs have been really, really close for the most part, but without gearing, Bokrug, Ghatanothoa, Nyogtha, Rhan-Tegoth (with 21 doom tokens) and Zhar (though Mythos Blessed all investigators in this one) have gone down. Chaugnar Faugn almost requires gearing up, but that's all he does really. When you gear up, you'll have Weapons to throw at Cthugha and will be at full stats, but bad rolls can still knock you down fast. QU is just bollocks.

For Atlach, buying Allies during the game helps you gear up as well, making you survive longer in the final combat.

IIRC, you play 2-investigator games, I run 4.

Dam said:

With 3 exceptions (Atlach, QU, Zhar), final combats are easier the less players there are.

I think the epic battle deck, Kevin's clue/seal and green card rule, and Richard's house rules (support page) were more than enough to make for the challenging final combat hardcore gearers wanted (not to mention the difficulty variant cards in Black Goat). I still think the likes of Chaugnar, Tsath, Zhar, and QU were big mistakes in the difficulty department. House/optional rules for the small top percentage of players who think Cthulhu, Yog, and Chaugnar are pushovers, more reasonable ancient ones for everyone else.

GrooveChamp said:

Sadly, I don't think all gearers use anything but EB, if that. IMO of course. I average over 50% in final combat without gearing, no EB of course, but I think if KW's clue/seal variant had been in effect from my day 1, my record would still be the same.

Dam said:

Agreed. Even with two seals down, and it's a really bad game where that doesn't happen, it'll be a rare final fight where you don't have time to spend your remaining clues. The closest its come to making a difference was a couple of days ago - Shudde M'ell woke up unexpectedly after the gate limit was exceeded, while both Investigators were in other worlds with the clues to seal. Bob Jenkins, with a passed personal story and around $20, was one of the two, and due to the mess we'd made of the game, we only had one seal down.

Even with all that, where we would have lost the opportunity to spend 5 clues to the rule, it made no difference because we got a final-round win anyway, due to some lucky initial weapon draws (Bob started with the Flamethrower and Fetch Stick). Without those weapons, we'd have lost even with the extra 5 clues (which one more seal would have got us the ability to spend anyway).

I think it's meant more for older ancient ones that involve skill check attacks. Get enough clues and you could pass those all day.

But there are still a ton of other optional rules that can be used instead to bump the difficulty as well as the difficulty variant cards. Adopting the likes of Richard's support page rules if you so choose would be a better solution than designing nearly impossible ancient ones.

I just think rules/design should be geared towards the majority of the player base with optional rules to cover the minority that aren't suited to the default game. I'm guessing the majority of players don't consider Innsmouth ancient ones to be pushovers in final combat.

GrooveChamp said:

I agree with this. I think there is a vocal contingent on this board who do not represent the majority of players but are still asking for official rules changes to cover everyone because they play things ... differently.

I, for one, do NOT like this "clues per seal" limit during the final fight. Final fights are hard enough as they are without any more restrictions. In all my time of playing this game (and I must have played this game at LEAST 400 times if not more), I've had the final fight be too easy because of clues just once. I don't like the idea of making the other 399 games harder just because of that one occasion. But the problem I see on this board is that a vocal minoirty DO want that to be the case ...

I've said it before, I'll say it again, if YOU thing the Shotgun is too powerful then you don't have to use it. What's the problem with that solution? Why make changes for everyone else?

Stenun said:

The problem with that solution is that if you have the shotgun, you probably should use it. Not using a tactic you have immediately available to you that will help you out is foolish. But if it helps too much , maybe it's a flaw in the game. We "vocal minority" feel the final battle should be hard because it's supposed to be hard, and particularly because it's supposed to be a last resort. The default game isn't designed to make it feel like a last resort: gearing up to deliberately invoke an easy final battle with Hastur, for example, is fully supported without any drawbacks. This is just completely un-thematic.

This isn't just a vocal minority thing either: the designer himself both created Epic Battle cards to make the battles harder, and the clue-seal limit to address the "last resort" shortfall. When the designer of the game thinks that a victory condition is too exploitable and too un-thematic, then there's something to be respected about that. And to be part of a vocal minority, we have to be vocal. I'll bet that the actual number of players who agree is far larger than it seems because they aren't as vocal.

Having the clue-seal rule become an official rule rather than a variant seems like it would bug you more than it would thrill me, so I think we can both agree that it may be best to remain a variant. However, I really wish that it was a variant that was more widely known. I also suggested that it be included on the upcoming FAQ, but I don't remember if I said it should be a "rule" or a "variant," sorry :-/

Tibs said:

Yes, the final battle should be hard. It IS hard. Sure, against certain Ancient Ones it's easier than others but it's ALREADY hard. Look at the stats you yourself have accumulated! Out of the 24 Ancient Ones, final fights against 20 of them result in a defeat for the Investigators more than half the time. Only 4 out of 24 Ancient Ones are beaten in a Final Fight more than they win.

How is that not already hard??

If there are one or two cards or Ancient Ones that sway things too much, then nerf those cards. Don't bring in a rule that makes it even harder to beat all the other already hard Ancient Ones. It's overkill to bring in yet more rules to make the Final Battle even harder because of one or two Ancient Ones who aren't tough enough or one or two items that make it too easy. It's taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Also, the "thematic" argument can only go so far. It's not "thematic" for a little girl to take a flame-thrower to the Dunwhich Horror but I've seen it happen, want to introduce a rule to stop that too? This is a board game, not a role-playing game, and as such there needs to be room to stretch - or even ignore - the setting if it's in the best interests of game play. We start ruling on whether something is allowed or not based or how "thematic" it is, sooner or later we might as well just dispense with the dice altogether and each game is decided by how thematic it is for a gravedigger, an actress and a lawyer to really be able to defeat Cthulhu with a cavalry saber. Gameplay MUST come first and I for one don't want to play a co-op game where I lose more often than I win.

And as for the "designer himself" ... well if he's like me, he'll have only seen arguments for making the game harder from the Vocal Minority ( ) and none for leaving the game as it is from anyone else. I've seen maybe two other people on these boards saying not to make the game any harder, yet I regularly play the game with three different play groups and ALL of the people in each of the groups don't want it harder. Some have even already refuse to play with Innsmouth because they feel it's already too hard.

I mean, that's fine. But he came up with this rule on his own. I'm just looking for something that makes final battles harder if you don't put in a good enough effort to lay seals. If you try to abuse the system by early gearing, you should be punished. Have you seen the entry where someone chose to play Quachil Uttaus, then got Joe Diamond in a 1-investigator game... and he won by final combat? There is no way this character won without abusing clues and gearing early.

All I'm saying is that if Kevin wants to know what people think about the rule, I'm going to back him on it.

And I have no problem with a little girl using a flamethrower. I do have a problem with her using the Deputy car though.

Seriously why does everyone hate Joe Diamond so much? It's his ability boosting clues that makes him a favourite with my gaming group. Why does everybody hate him? Because he's very good? Those guys should create their own characters with 3 max on every stat and only 3 sanity and stamina and start with nothing. Far out a character gets awesome abilities and people hate him?

I love Joe Diamond. He was my favorite character when I started playing. But his ability to pool clues and unleash an exorbitant attack on the Ancient One is a bit... much. The example I gave just illustrated where, exactly, I believe the problem lies. In the clues, during final combat.

Stenun said:

Because all GOOs should have at least a 75% winning record in final combat IMO. I'm above .500 in final combats (24 draws, 18 losses) without ever gearing up for them, not even buying a Blessing. That's not hard.

On the stats themselves, shocks me to see Shudde, Bokrug, Glaaki, Abhoth, Shub-Niggurath as that hard. Early days for the IH GOOs, so Nyogtha, Ghatanothoa, Rhan-Tegoth and Zhar will to less than 50% in final combat eventually for me.

Tibs said:

Sometimes it's the only way to win (one time I was in a team of 2, and my teammate was Harvey Walters with no weapons and 1 sanity left so can't cast spells).

Knuckles Eki said:

Clue-whoring ain't no excuse for poor playing . Or, maybe if you didn't always play the same investigator (Joe D in this case), other ways to win the game might become more viable. Of course if you have Joe D in every game, there is less point to close/seal, you know clue-whoring will still win the game most of the time, so why bother with gates.

Knuckles Eki said:

It's fine if it's the only way to win, but only if you've figured that out very close to the end of the game, where all other options are futile. So you shouldn't have enough time to even pool up so many clues that you can wipe out half of the AO's life in one shot. In other words, if you got down at least a few seals before the end came, then you'll be allowed to use at least a few clues each round. The more you try to abuse the system (ignore sealing from the start), the more trouble you'll be in.

Hah, my gaming group only wants to see the Ancient One DEAD. Not driven off by sealing, not keeping it asleep by closing gates. They want to see it DEAD DEAD DEAD. They find final combat the most fun part of the game, not 'wasting' clues on seals only to see the Ancient One awaken and they have 5 less clues.

Knuckles Eki said:

I think you should get them to play Tsathoggua or Yibb-Tstll. Both of those GOOs make you discard all you Clues at the start of battle . Could tweak their mentality.