All editions start out with a peak of sales which off over time. So of course the peak sales of nWoD are higher than the tail end of oWoD when the all of the really popular topics have already been covered. What I'm arguing is that nWoD peaked lower and dropped off faster than oWoD.

How is oWoD more suited to an MMO than nWoD? If that is so, which of those reasons don't also make oWoD a better RPG? I can also assure you that popularity is the most important thing a brand has. The fact that oWoD still has enough popularity to even be considered for a new MMO means they think it is a stronger brand than nWoD. Business decisions are based on perceived potential sales, not the "quality" of the game.

Yes, the industry has changed. And the players in the industry have adapted. D&D is still a top brand. WoD used to be #2. In the last decade it has declined dramatically. In an industry where niche games like Traveller and Earthdawn have a stronger 2011 release schedule than WoD, I can only conclude that WW has failed somewhere along the way. Vampires are still popular. RPGs are still popular. Why do you think White Wolf has fallen so far? Dresden Files was the number 5 brand in Q3 2010. So whatever happened to White Wolf?

Well I think its been established by many companies that the core game system supported by multiple settings doesnt necessarily work. Chaosium publishes the rules in just about every line it releases. Palladium as well. D20/3E/3.5E even did that with just about every OGL product/line that came out. Sure many said "requires the 3E D&D Players Handbook" and what not, but Spycraft didnt, Farscape didnt, D20 Modern didnt and so forth. They all had the core rules in the game.

But the single core books and multiple setting books did work for AD&D 1E and 2E.

And GURPS. And HERO System (for a while, but it also went both ways).

So we cant just use oWoD and nWoD as basis on how this works (and lets not forget WW did publish the WWF RPG using the oWoD rule set).

I do think FFG will make a mint in this style as we will buy the games. 40K has been denied a RPG for so long that its like offer water to a traveller in the desert. YES SIR, WE WILL TAKE MORE!

The real issue is do you mind? or do you not mind? I would prefer a more streamlined game, but guess what, I dont have it. In the end, I can still use the books together and I will do so.

In a completely unrelated note: http://blog.vampirethemasquerade.com/ a 20th anniversary edition of VtM has just been announced. I hope everyone buys it and convinces WW to resurrect the old lines.

Just to point out: It's currently only been announced for attendees to the Grand Masquerade convention in New Orleans later this year. If that continues to be the case, it makes it kind of hard for anyone else to buy it. They have also stated that this is just a compilation of most-things Vampire: The Masquerade, they still have no intention of printing new material for oWoD (but all the old oWoD stuff should be available by Print On Demand via drivethrurpg.com).

One of their developers has said on their forums that it will be available to the public outside of the grand masq, they just haven't released the details yet.

I know they say they have no plans for more oWoD material, but I'm sure they will look at the sales of this book. If it sells out quickly, that will show that there is demand.

deinol said:

The reasons oWoD is more suited to an MMO are complex, but stem from the design philosophy used when creating each setting. The nWoD is a toolkit designed to maximise the ability of a ST to tailor the campaign to his preferences. There's are much fewer assumptions about what a campaign is going to be like and much more flexibility in assigninng roles to different archetypes. Who is allied with whom, who are the good guys/bad guys, what are the 'facts' of the setting and what are the lies. This is great for a TT RPG, but is problematic when applied to an MMO, which is the equivalent of one ST's homebrew setting. The oWoD was less focused on providing STs with tools for creating their own setting and was more about selling the setting as-is. Everyone is on the same page. The different factions are easier to identify and understand.

Yes, the industry has changed. D&D is still a top brand, but it too has fallen far. It too is struggling to adapt. To say that WoD has declined dramatically in the last decade is to misrepresent the situation. It was still #2 until about 2 years ago. Then WW made a choice. They weren't forced from their 2nd place position, they chose to relinquish it. They could have kept on churning out material and maintained their place at number 2, but instead decided to take a break and completely change the way they do business. One of the reasons for the merger with CCP was to give them the breathing room to do just that.

On the other hand, now would be a fairly good time to release a new version of vampire. An updated version of the oWoD would go down well - but not because it is a superior brand, but simply because it's been so long since it was out that releasing it now would be the same as releasing a "new" setting, but with the bonus of picking up older customers (some who would just buy it for the nostalgia value). However that isn't to say that it would achieve the same success that it did in the nineties. The customer base simply isn't there. And then a couple of years down the line a new new world of darkness could be released.

At the moment though WW seem to be waiting to see where the RPG industry goes. Their hope is that e-readers will gain in popularity, allowing the industry to move away from print media and survive electronically. They are now in a position to take advantage of that whe (or if) it happens. Until then they don't seem willing to invest too much in their RPGs, focusing on the creation of the MMO.

Didn't WW recent do just that (kinda) by releasing free update rules for oWoD disciplines and clans in the nWoD setting?

I think WW's reset was inevitable, rather than a mistake. From the enormously open 'do what the heck you like' attitude of 1e, whose very rulebook featured a tale where a character won his mortality back just by killing his sire, WW then went and became a more and more restrictive setting; with every facet of Earth's history and politics dominated by Supernaturals, and an ongoing meta-plot. The game's original ethos went out the window, and there was no more 'wiggle room' left in the setting, given that it had steered itself to destruction. Sure: The hardcore addicts kept buying, for the sake of seeing what happened and completeness, but it really drove off the casual buyer, as they needed to shell out vast amounts for a 'complete' system.

nWoD gets back to the 'do what you like' thing, but that's a harder model to keep selling stuff under. It might be ethically what they prefer, but it means that you run out of things to sell after a while. And to be honest; the oWoD print schedule sacrificed quality for quantity. The new books are much more likely to grace my shelves, because they're a much higher quality product. I think that the new product has a remarkably widened appeal.

Siranui said:

That's not really comparable to re-releasing the line with continued supplement support.

macd21 said:

Also, link? I want to download that!

macd21 said:

Erm... but the game world is kinda dead. That's the problem with fixed-duration meta-plots: Once it's over, it's over.

Siranui said:

Er, no.

All that is stopping WW from rereleasing the oWoD is the desire to do so. They can simply reboot the setting.

deinol said:

Not quite free, but I think this is what he meant:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=86202&filters=0_0_40050_0

macd21 said:

Which would render several books worth of metaplot entirely useless, which would piss off many oWoD fans no end.

They've specifically stated that, other than releasing oWoD via Print-on-Demand over drivethrurpg.com,releasing this book, they aren't doing anything with oWoD. It is dead, in that regard, as they are explicitly not making any new material for it.

MILLANDSON said:

Not really an issue. While the nostalgia factor would be a big bonus for sales it wouldn't be the primary goal. The game would have to appeal far more to new players. To that end the metaplot would need a complete reboot from day one. All of the old metaplot material would be rendered obsolete, allowing them to sell an entire new plot.

Plenty of older players would buy it regardless. A few grognards would complainrefuse to buy it, but that's going to happen no matter what you do.

MILLANDSON said:

Yes, I wasn't suggesting that this was something WW are going to do, simply sometime they could do, if they wanted. I think it would be profitablethat there are certain advantages to doing so. However I think their main reason for not doing it is artistic. They simply don't want to because it doesn't interest them that much. The oWoD is done . Rehashing the same setting all over again... it would bore them to tears. I think that if they were to release a new Vampire setting they'd prefer to create it from scratch, allowing them to explore new options. At the moment I don't think they plan on doing either until they figure out what way the market is evolving.

macd21 said:

Why would it appeal to new players? Surely that's what the new game does?

Stapling an entire new plot onto the new system, but with the old clans seems...bizarre. The new system is designed to be plot-independent probably because they learned from their mistake last time. Why would they repeat that mistake, and if they did decide to do so after a few pipes of crack, then why use the old clans and background rather than the new one? It would be pointless to players who remember oWoD and alienate newer ones.

I don't know about others, but I none of the people I gamed with cared about the metaplot. We bought clan/tribe/tradition books about groups we liked. We bought the main books and player's guides. We bought books about topics that interested us. We made our own stories and never used any of the pre-made npcs or events.

There is nothing inheret to oWoD that requires a metaplot. WotC did a great job with their re-release of Dark Sun by resetting things to the original boxed set, before the liberation of Tyr even. Players want to play their own stories, not be sideshows to someone elses. I doubt they'd lose that many customers over releasing a meta-plotless oWoD. I'm sure they would piss people off if they started some other, new metaplot. I don't think anyone is asking for that.

In response to the OP's original question:

Yes.

Siranui said:

No, the 'new' game used to appeal to new players... when it was new. It isn't new anymore - and that's a problem. There isn't really much profitable material that can be released for the game. All the really useful books that will sell in large numbers have already been released.

Ironically the oWoD is in fact so old that it can be released as a 'new' game and will appeal to new players. They can release 'new' books on the clans, the Cam and the Sabbat etc. The advantage this would have over an entirely new setting would be that in addition to appealing to new fans it would also be bought by fans of the oWoD.

There are certainly alternative routes WW could take. A new edition of nWoD, an entirely new setting, or focusing on new 'settings' for nWoD (like Requiem for Rome). Re-releasing the oWoD is just one option.

Siranui said:

White Wolf did learn a lesson about the dangers of metaplot from the oWoD... but they later realised that they had learnt that lesson too well. For years they completely avoided any hint of metaplot in their games. They then realised that they had probably overreacted. Metaplot is a tool, one that can be used profitably if you don't go too far, as they did with the oWoD. They have a better understanding of its uses and pitfalls now and have expressed some interest in using it again.

As for why use the older background - again, because old is new, but still old. Old enough that it will appeal to new players and old alike. The only fans that would be alienated would be hardcore nWoD fans, but they aren't buying enough material these days that alienating them would be much of a loss.

deinol said:

But surely you can do that by simply buying NWoD and the 'catch-up pack' to play old clans? What would you need WW to release if you are plot-independent? That just leaves mechanical crunch (available in the new form) and the old books for fluff, which you already own.

macd21 said:

Are you suggesting that the WoTC strategy of printing stuff as fast as you can and releasing a new edition as soon as the money-spinning mechanical splat-books are all done with is a good thing? It might be for their pockets, but it's not that great for us. I personally don't like 3 years of shelling out for splat-books, only for the product line to be completely re-hashed and sold to me again. I simply won't do it, and I'm not alone.

Truth is that crunch sells, and not much else does. Campaign settings are at best quite an iffy thing to shift, and pre-written scenarios simply don't bring the money in enough. TSR made that mistake (along with hiring a crook, by all accounts). The way that the industry works encourages businesses who care about profits to ration out mechanics and crunch-books while neglecting 'soft' books and all the while having an eye on a new edition. WoTC's success is visible proof of that strategy, but it's a bit slash and burn: After buying two editions, most players will simply move on or stick to old stuff, and then the company *never* gets any more revenue from those customers.

That said, WW drowned us all in a sea of fluff material. It took the WoTC approach to print schedules, but made it fluff-related, rather than crunch-related. And we got pretty tired of buying badly spelled books full of plot that had no relevance to most games. Most people lost interest long before the end of the world. Indeed: It was the end of the world books that reignited interest in old timers with many people shelling out money for the last couple of books very much 'for old time's sake'.

I personally prefer my games companies to be a bit more in it for love, and to only release new editions when one is really needed, and to better support their products. It seems that the industry's big players are tied to a 'new edition' model. I'd prefer a 'new game' model. Sure: Most games have problems and need a second edition. But that's it. Write a game, support it at a reasonable pace, rather than giving us a forced-supplement-enema, and then launch another game. Carry on support for both at a gentle pace, adding additional lines, rather than re-hashing old stuff and making half my bookshelf redundant; essentially taking my money, spitting in my face and putting their hand out for more cash.

I think WW went the right tack -for me- in releasing 'soft' products that were options, and contained quality material. The Urban Legends book -for example- was full of ideas and concepts, yet didn't make the mistake of typing it to a plot-line. I really like the WW approach of 'here's some ideas, but you decide what to do with them'. I think that it gives them more flexibility in the market-place and a lot more long-term appeal than WoTC's strategy. It's not something that I'm following closely, but I believe that they have indeed introduced a slightly alternative setting book, with new Covenants et al. Not to co-exist, but as additional and alternative options. Sure: They might not be making much money off the line, but people still create a revenue stream. Now they can go and get their creative juices flowing and write something new for me to play as well.

Given the release of the MMO, I suspect though that you may be right, and a re-release of oWoD fluff material may be just over the horizon.

@Siranui - That's true, but I don't actually care about Vampires. Where is my rules update pack for Changeling and Mage? I certainly would play either of those with the new rules. As it is, I'll be using the Dresden Files RPG for that instead.

Edit: I'd also prefer a real book to a PDF. But hey, at least I have that 40k rpg I've been wanting since the 90s.

Well, i reserve final judgement for when i have the rulebook in my spiky, iron gloved hands, but i think it makes sense.

I have to say, despite having lots of issues about the translations of 40k models to rpg and their comparative power level, i am quite pleased with all of the rulesets so far, and their compatibility is a big bonus, as you can effectively mix and match them with little effort.

Well done, just bring out some reasonably powerful (tabletop level leadrs) eldar/dark eldsr adversaries, and tone down the nids. A lot.

Siranui said:

Yes (though I wouldn't call it the WotC strategy - WW had this model perfected long before WotC released D&D 3). In this case I firmly believe that what is good for the company is good for the player. I want material for my game, the more the better. Quality from companies like WW and WotC is high despite the quantity, so that isn't an issue. And when the game is no longer selling I want to see a new edition released. I might not buy that edition (unless it is a serious improvement over the last one), but its continued publication means new players pick up the game, the fan community stays invigorated and there is still the potential for new material that I will buy.

Siranui said:

I don't really agree that only crunch sells (though its true that scenarios aren't great profit makers). As for TSR, their problems stemmed from the fact that they were completely incompetent. They didn't really have any business model at all.

Regarding the 'slash and burn' model, its true that most players will only stick around for two editions or so before moving on. However there's nothing wrong with that. That's actually longer than most gamers will stick with a game that has a slow release schedule. The constant release of new material keeps them interested. And it is certainly far, far more profitable than the slow release schedule model, which is only viable for small companies that don't care much about profit (the Labour-of-Love side of the industry). The supplement treadmill keeps the money rolling in, the quality high and the fans sated. And those players that drop out are replaced by new ones when the next edition is released.

Siranui said:

It's true that people eventually got bored of the oWoD. But that was after 13 years . And the problem wasn't the supplement treadmill, but the metaplot, which discouraged new fans from the setting. White Wolf couldn't simply release V:tM 4th edition to reinvigorate the line, because the bloated metaplot would still be there.

Siranui said:

There are two problems with this model, one for the company and one for the fans.

For the company: there just isn't enough money in it. Using this model your profit margins are going to be very slim. It's only really feasible for very small companies. And such companies are always about one cashflow problem away from going under and taking the game with it.

For the fans: You get **** all material. The small size of the company means that there won't be many products released for it. As fans drift away to better-supported games (like D&D) you may have trouble finding a group to play with. And if the company goes under you'll be lucky to see anything new released for your game again.

Siranui said:

Actually no, I doubt they will, at least not on a large scale. Releasing the oWoD again is just one option they have, but I don't really think it's the one they'll take. They may release a few supplements if they think of something cool to release, but I don't think they are actually interested in going back to the oWoD. The real question is whether they will actually support any major new line again. If they do I suspect it will be something entirely new.

deinol said:

True enough. I never liked old Changling despite wanting to, but an update pack is a bit overdue.

I think that the PDF thing is going to become more common. Dealing with printers is an enormous ball-ache for any company, and removing that from the equation not only makes is possible to make changes mid-edition, but removes the time needed to get a supplement out by a very considerable margin. I too like real books, but many people find PDFs massively more convenient.

The 40k RPG line has indeed been something I've waited a long while for. I'm pleased that they generally exceeded my expectations with them.

I'd only agree that what is good for the company is good for the player in that companies need to survive in order to keep publishing things. I personally favour the strategies of the smaller companies that create stuff with a lot of love and fan input, and a steady rate. As much as I like 'crunch', I don't want to have to rush to the shop and buy a book more than once every 6 months for a system at most. Call it once every 4 months for a new system, perhaps. You say that this kind of release schedule gives '**** all' to the fans, but it's much closer to what I prefer, as I find a monthly release schedule doesn't so much aim to give me material, so much as empty my wallet. That's not catering for me, that's taking advantage.

I simply loathe the model that releases an almost essential book of crunch each month in addition to other stuff, and where stuff other than crunch tends to be of secondary importance at best. Then -after two years- trying to sell me an entirely new addition feels like having my face ground into cold vomit sewn with broken glass. It tells me that the company really don't give a darn about me as a customer; only my wallet.

Rites of Battle is a great example of what I like: It took a while to turn up but is literally STUFFED with stuff. There's barely a wasted page in there. Best add-on book I've seen for YEARS. Let's compare that to pretty much anything WW ever released for V:tM... the quality was dire, and it was full of useless, rambling trash. Nuggets of useful stuff were buried under piles of useless pre-genned PCs (which were used ot pad out EVERY book), in-character stories that were poorly written, tangential background material, and re-touched photos of the writer's girlfriend with an ankh around their neck.

Quality from WW is high now, but wasn't before the new edition. Frankly: It was crud. The art was crud, the layout was crud, the proofing was crud, the mechanics were crud. They couldn't even name their chapters sensibly or provide a friggin index. WoTC's release of 3.0 raised the bar for quality books. It was by far the prettiest book I think I've seen, and well laid out. Prior to 3.0, SLA and Heavy Gear were the only things that seemed to come close, production-wise (and SLA fell apart, thanks to dodgy glue!). WoTC's ability to create pretty, well laid out books seems to have shocked the industry into raising the bar a bit, and we're at least reaping the rewards in getting indexes these days. The Fantasy Flight RPGs have really been a great example of prettyness, too.

I think the fact that crunch sells is probably quite visible to shop owners. Crunch flies off the shelves while 'soft' products tend to moulder. TSR churned out gazillions of scenarios instead of crunch and it really hurt 1e. 2e learned the lesson and reaped it in with the Handbook line, while Hasbro recognised the fact even more and produced a tiny number of scenarios compared to crunch. The proof is in the pudding, to my mind. They covered their bases with Eberron by making sure it was packed with crunch and power creep, so that people bought it even if they didn't give a hoot about the background.

TSR's business model -the one that killed it- was 'make Buck Rodgers stuff'.

I'm not sure that I agree that players like to move on. That very much depends. Some are faddy, and some still attend Amber conventions! I still play games that are 20 years old, and I'd still be buying the odd book for 3.0 had WoTC, were it still supported.

I'm not sure it's fair to call it 13 years of WW metaplot. The game was fine without it for a number of years after release. I think the metaplot thing really kicked off with 2e, and went downhill from there. At first (aside from being written by people who couldn't do maths) 1e really fitted my kind of ideal release schedule, and there was zero metaplot.