As much as this is great news from the fan's perspective how does this play out from a business side, you think?

We got a DH, RT and DW campaign now. I don't think our group can afford to add another 40K Roleplay campaign, especially since we play non-40K stuff too. Other people will perhaps not like DW or some will drop the low-powered DH.

The customers' money it seems will get distributed across product lines. In the end the product line with the worst sales will have to get its funding slashed or even abandoned? And right now gamers are asking for a Tau or Eldar 5th Rulebook which would aggrivate this.

Any thoughts?

Alex

Well, if it sells more then another line and that line gets cut, then thats inherently a sound business decision if it ends up making the company more money in the long run, even if it annoys gamers out there. Would it not be more likely they'd cut Anima before a 40k game line, which is a big long-term license, all of which still have quite a lot of new uptake potential in the market from GW gamers that haven't tried the RPGs yet?

I personaly would just prefer White Wolf WoD Scheme, one common Rulebook, and specific core Expansions to it (DH, Rogue Trader, DW, Black Crusade), either a big and comprihensive NPC and Creature Book, or split Books for Imperial, Xenos, Heretic/Warp, and Expansion supplements for each line (Inquisitors Handbook, Rites of Battle). It would allow to bypass absolutuley unnecessary rules rehash, free up space for additional Background in each core Expansion, and first and foremost it should make all the systems complementary and easier to integrate. So a new edition would by my personal preferance, but i guess rehash is easier for catching the customers money (another book with up to 150 pages of redundant copy paste).

CaptainSabutai said:

I was thinking the exaclty the same thing.IMHO theres no bad desicion in making new corebooks for the 40k universe.Im already sold on this book and think even the nay-sayers will end up buying this book for the most part.

Right now, at least if my local game shop is any indication, these books are like printing money for FFG. My LGS sold more Deathwatch corebooks last year than all of 4th ed DnD playerhandbooks and DMGs combined. And Deathwatch wasn't even out the entire year. FFG and GW would foolish not to continue to explore the 40k setting in terms of my corebooks. Plus every game isn't for every group. And alot of people will pick this up to use as source material in the other games. And believe me, you will want this book just for material if you are running DH, RT, or DW.

domokun said:

I dare say people running DH, RT, or DW would be better served with more sourcebooks for those games, rather than basically spending a wodge on a corebook heavy with repeat rules, just for mining purposes.

I tend to believe you're right though, the corebooks sell well, so that's what's being released, doesn't mean that's good for us customers though.

The sound business decision is to expand into realms that feedback deems marketable. The fact that all of their core games are compatible makes this not just a new product line, but an expansion to the existing lines.

The perfect example is that I have been running DH from the start, but I own all the RT books for the source material, I have converted the large Lure of the Expanse into a Ordo Xenos mission and a player is running a DW Kill-Marine as a character now because the scope and power level supports it without pause. Three separate game lines all working together to help me craft and run elaborate games and let my players play their dream characters.

-Cynr

IF the Chaos side of 40KRP actually covers all the power levels thus far done from the Imperial side, we may eventually see something similar supplant the three existing games: a v1.5 if you will.

I think it would actually be a good move to consolidate the rules into Imperials & Chaos . That would then open the door for - say - an Eldar book.

domokun said:

Not to dismiss it, but comparing sales to sales of 4e D&D is fairly trivial. Everyone I know is of the opinion that 4e is the worst edition they made.

I was wondering about the long-term though guys. Will gamers buy all supplements from all product lines? Probably only a minority. Will gamers spent more money on 40K Roleplay then if there had no 4th system? That is speculation but there is a (time) limit to the things you can run. Will future Deathwatch supplements continue to sell well or will plenty of gamers say: "I focus on Dark Heresy and Black Crusade."

Again, from a gamer perspective this good news, it's always great to have many options. I'm not sure how this will work out though. Hey, I remember people here posting they feared that DH would run out of support because of FFG focussing on DW.

It's like this: if you need to share your soup with more guests than planned for, the soup will get thinner for each of them in the end.

Alex

lol i am one of those that will buy all the supps for all the games if only to help keep my local rpg shop gpoing lol

Letrii said:

D&D 3e global sales = 6,000,000 approx

D&D 4e global sales = 1,500,000 approx

Seems to me any company moving their products down that route is in for a hiding... (WHFRP 3e?)

Anywany, the business wisdom of releasing a new 40k rpg, seems fine to me. Each hits an 'aspect' of 40k so covering as many bases as possible makes sense within that business model . As to the sense of the model itself? Well, i'm on record as preferring the '1 core book with focussed splatbooks' approach mentioned by others above.

I've purchased DH / RT / RT:se / DW, and it does leave one, as a consumer, feeling basically ripped off given that each game is about 90% a rehash of the previous. I guess i'll also be buying BC to see how the heretical side is fleshed out (i suspect it'll be as empty as the loyalist offerings though).

It does seem however, to be released in haste. DH/RT/DW are still not really 'mature' in terms of settling into their release. We're still looking for key sourcebooks to be released. Personally i'd have said early 2012 would have seemed a better time,

Without derailing the thread, Luddite where are you getting those 3e/4e sales figures? That's the worst ratio I've yet seen online comparing the two games. If even vaguely true 4e surely has to be seen as a catastrophic failure for wotc?

I'm firmly in the hate-4e-and-all-it-stands-for camp btw.

@Luddite

D&D 3e global sales = 6,000,000 approx

D&D 4e global sales = 1,500,000 approx

Would that be "per year" or "in total"? Because if it's in total, you happen to be comparing 8 years of sales (and products!) with two and a half...

@Topic

I don't think Black Crusade is that much of a wager: it covers in details what other publications have only touched (the internal workings of chaos) and gives options for characters that until now were poorly balanced for this type of campaign - radical characters were mainly held in check by their Corruption rating, which is much less of a problem for those who work for the Ruinous Powers in the first place.

Oh please, 4th ed D&D is a good book; for proof, it's the best thing to jam under a table leg to straighten it out.

But seriously- yeah it's MMO the P&P game. When Kobolds got more HP than you at level 1, you got to ask yourself what the hell they were thinking. And falling to the 1/day abilities won't cut it if you roll under it's AC and loose it; back to doing 1d8 per hit on that 100 HP Kobold.

Anyways-I am eager for BC, if only to see the other side of the 40k medal. Not to mention it should be a good source of info, monster, new types of enemies, skills, talents, whatever. Even if most if copy/paste, keep in mind they're not making core book with the idea that ONLY those who bought the previous 40k books will buy BC, but for anyone who can take it and start playing. I know my 40k knowledge was limited when I first bough DH; those 2-3 chapters on the background sure helped.

But I'm not against seeing the Galaxy through a mirror Warply.

I think it's important to remember that to a large extent, pass the "holy trinity" of core rulebook, player's handbook and GM's sourcebook, pretty much everything else falls into the category of "nice to have."

Case in point, my gaming group has been successfully playing a great Deathwatch campaign and we still have yet to make use of any of the new goodies from Rites of Battle.

Outside the "Holy Trinity," I think I would only rate "The Radical's Handbook" for Dark Heresy as a must have and I wasn't really impressed by what Edge of the Abyss brought to the table for Rogue Trader. Basically, supplements are nice but if the core books are solid, they aren't needed to run an entertaining and long-lasting campaign.

I think it's worth also noting two further points:

1) The business decisions to produce Black Crusade was in all likilihood not made in a vacuum. It was probably made in response to strong demand for 40k roleplaying games and their supplements. It is therefore logical to expect that they will increase the amount of "man-power" accordingly.

2) Dark Crusade by its very nature will further boost the incentive for a gaming group to own multiple 40K RPG product-lines. It will undoubtably act as a massive resource for GM's looking for more interesting, powerful and inventive bad guys to throw at their players in Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch. At the same time, the existing lines have lots of information that a Black Crusade GM would find valuable.

I guess I wasn't entirely clear. The question is this:

Will Black Crusade make you end up spending more money on FFG products or not? Will you buy the new BC books and keep the same level of interest in the previous systems ? Consider this topic a poll, I'd like to hear from you guys.

Alex

I am already a bit picky when it comes to buying new stuff for W40k. It really annoys me that there are loads of different corebooks, I am a one corebook lots of splatbooks kind of guy. The more books that get released that I see as "parallel", the less of them I will buy.

Lucifer216 said:

It definitely wasn't. They were hinting at it before Deathwatch was even out on a podcast. Granted, that doesn't mean they didn't start work on it until after Deathwatch was done, since it does take a long time to get through editing and layout to publishing.

But even Deathwatch hinted at new games in the works.

Bad Birch said:

Agreed, I didn't buy the DW corebook. I just didn't like enough in it to shell out the cash for it. I did however really like the first DW module, which had some great setting fluff. Point is I'm now firmly checking books before buying them, some I'll buy, others I won't. This is quite a change for me, as I used to buy the books sight-unseen - I just don't think the quality warrants that any more. IMO.

ak-73 said:

I wouldn't expect it to make me buy more, or less. I suspect it might mean there will be a slow in output for some or all the other 3 lines over time, and that could mean I buy less ... as I have a general dislike for playing evil campaigns. I'll give the books the same chance I'm already vetting each new book with though. There could be good setting fluff and Chaos notes I might like. I'm quite pleased the warp storm is the one between Calixis and Koronus, that could be handy.

It is possible that FFG hopes to use this game to lure a new market to 40K. There are gamers I know who play nothing but evil games, and they might just see this as their entry into 40K role-playing. Or else just getting more money from 40K role-playing. Either way, it looks like FFG has another hit on their hands, based on initial feedback.

Two asides, first as a game store owner I can tell you that D&D4E is a total bomb, and that the only books we keep in stock are the 3 core books, at one copy each, and all other books are special order. D&D4E may have made the game easier for newbies, but it drove away the vast majority of their players. Second, although we don't sell much WFRP, I think it is one of the most innovative game systems to come around in quite some time, and I wish FFG would make more products like it. It appears to sell well in other areas (otherwise they wouldn't keep making the expansions), but I can understand why long-time fans of the first two editions would be against it.

I think Wizards would disagree on D&D 4e being a bomb. Everything I've heard says it is at least as big a success. They just went for a new market instead of the existing. And the 'essentials' line has made it even more successful. The failure of a store here and there to sell it is hardly evidence of it being a bomb. My local store it's a HUGE seller, with multiple groups playing it every week in the store alone.

And 1.5 Million in such a short time? Keep in mind the usual RPGs not D&D 1000 sales is a success.

And this will be a success, a big one. Just like the other three.

I am not an authority on this subject, but it has been mentioned in the past that this strategy of releasing lots of lines has the benefit of being interesting to a wide range of different people. The criticism leveled at games with one core book and a miriad of support tomes is that it is less approachable because new gamers have too much of a mountain in front of them to climb and so don't get interested. On the DH forum at the moment there is a thread where a guy is asking which books are essential for a player, and then he lists 6 or 7. Funny how much material has already been generated that could be seen as confusing for (not just) the new player.

Unfortunately, for me, I will most likely just buy it outright. You see, Im a 40K RPG Addict.

But not everyone is. Friends of mine who really rallied behing Dark Heresy initially went forth and bought Rogue Trader and the consensus at our gaming table was that the book was lacking in feeling and depth and was, IN OUR OPINION, boring.

No one even lifted an eyebrow at Deathwatch, except of course me who bought it. And for me, Deathwatch has only one part that I actually look over and over again and that is the bestiary.

In esence, FFG has made some nice books (Radical's Handbook, Creatures Anathema, Edge of the Abyss, Into the Storm) but when it has come to "RULE" books (Ascension, Deathwatch, Rogue Trader) the general feeling I get from my group is that FFG is lost.

To me, it seems Black Crusade would find a bigger audience from being a supplement for all three pre-existing games. I really am not looking forward to 50 pages of new character classes, 50 pages of repeated rules, 50 pages of another armoury.

Now if it has new mutation tables, expanded corruption rules, NEW and BROADER Sorcery rules, a kick ass Bestiary and the careers are easily converted/compatible with DH/RT/DW (not the almost the same but not quite useable current status quo) then I will be very pleased.

The book has a place in the 40K Universe, Im just not sure that that place is as its own game line.

But it is about time for FFG to release a rules manual that covers the general 40K universe and system. One that covers the entire tier structure (Tier One: Ranks 1-8 <Dark Heresy>, Tier Two: Ranks 5-12 <Rogue Trader>, Tier Three: Ranks 9-16 <Ascension, Deathwatch>).