Just saying, again. I almost guarantee this line takes it to Rank 20 or beyond. There's been hints in existing books.

But yeah, sight unseen buy for me too. I'll be waiting in line at Gen Con for it like I did for Rogue Trader and Deathwatch. At least as soon as I quickly get a couple other first day releases from smaller companies to read as I do.

I think it is a relatively sound decision, but will need to look into it. With my current Rt game going into the forseeable future, this product line may be something I buy for the day the Rt players have had their fill, and want something entirely different.

Maritime games already has multiple DW core book owners, and one guy getting every supplement, so I will prolly take my turn to get every RT book and possibly this so that the club has a fleshed out collection on hand from the Gm pool.

The best outcome of this, is that they have a 'conversion' system, allowing the corruption of characters from existing systems (but not in as cack-handed a fashion as in Ascension *shudders*).

Also on the finally note in the Op regarding a Tau or Eldar book, I think that would be the bad business decision. Personally, as a GM, i would not run a 100% xenos games in a million years simple because Tau is going to turn into weeabo heaven, and I haven't seen a well roleplayed Eldar since the beginning of pretending we were space-people. It turns into the dnd mentality of 'like a human but', which, to be honest, is best done from a humans POV, not as a facsimilie of 'alienness'.

But I digress. Over all, i look forwards to this, but I will want to have alot more information before I money on the product. Assuming FFG guys read the forums, I would like to note that even a hint of the following (you must maintain the integrity of the release, as I understand) would be neccessary from my POV to make it worth buying :

- Main opposing forces, maybe name 2 of 3 or 3 of 5. Don;t give the game away, but we'd like to know what's going to provide the conflict.

- Degrees of involvement. Ultra-violence? Subterfuge? is the whole range of chaotic infiltration and outright hyper-violence going to be covered?

- Systemic Conversion? RT's falling prey to the fell powers, Deathwatch marines consumed by the need to kill?

- Last but not least; target age for audience? Gm guide to content management?

Thanks for the OP ak, and i hope that this has been useful!

ak-73 said:

Something you need to consider: not all purchasers of the previous systems maintain the same level of interest in them. Not every customer who bought DH is still buying every new supplement - or even any of them. As time goes on the newer books become increasingly niche.

So basically even a DH player may be more willing to spend his money on the new core books than on (for example) Blood of Martyrs. I know that I'm not particularly interested in the 'career' series of books that FFG is releasing, whereas I'll almost certainly buy at least the BC corebook to see what it is like. So yes, FFG certainly has something to gain here.

Well if it was a sound business decision White Wolf wouldn't have done it with the original two World of Darkness editions... But anyway, I suppose this works out well for my group if I try to drag them into 40k Roleplay again. I like Rogue Trader, I like the premise alot, but for my group (who are 4th Edition Hack and Slash guys for the most part) Deathwatch might be more to their liking (much as the idea of playing Space Marines STILL makes me froath at the mouth.) Besides having something that interests them, this set up has the benefit of me saying "Okay we're playing Rogue Trader" and my group doesn't have go out and get another book because MOST OF THE IMPORTANT RULES are in Deathwatch. I'd have to pass around the book to refresh people on Profit and careers but otherwise we're all good.

Will I buy Black Crusade? Not sight unseen but if I like what the Dev Diaries say and/or I get a chance to skim a copy at my local B&N I might pick it up. Which is alright, out of oWoD I only picked up Mage, Hunter, and Werewolf... leaving Vampire and Changling to players who cared about such things.

I just can't see a compelling reason why BC needs to be another rulebook rather than a supplement you could 'plug into' the existing 40k rpg lines. I've aleady got the three existing corebooks and I'm running a DW campaign. Once the DW campaign is finished my group will probably move onto a different genre for a change of pace. If BC was a supplement then I'd pick it up in a heartbeat to mine it for ideas & antagonists in my DW game but another rulebook? no thanks.

MikeN said:

That doesn't mean there aren't reasons. You're just not aware of them yet. As more Designer Diaries are released, you'll get more info about the game and those reasons will hopefully come to light.

With the game only recently announced, I personally wouldn't expect many people to be much more than "faintly intrigued" by the game - afterall, you guys barely know anything about it. Only the briefest overview of the game has been provided, and that's not really enough to make an informed judgement. Trust me, I know - I didn't quite know what to think when I was first told of Black Crusade, but over an afternoon's discussion about the project (and other things) with Sam, Ross and a couple of my fellow freelancers, I got really excited about the whole thing. I didn't go into Black Crusade sight unseen, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to... so I urge patience. Hold on for a while, let the Designer Diaries accumulate to help inform your decisions and provide those reasons.

Adam France said:

So true.

I used to buy anything 40K RPG automatically, and that includes the collector's editions. Not now. I think the line has become a little bloated and now, more than ever, i wish they had a straight core rulebook supported by supplements.

Now my change in tack is only partially the fault of FFG, my group only showing marginal interest in anything beyond DH and the constant errors in the books added to the fact that half the books i buy, whilst a nice read are hardly ever actually used in a practical sense, are also major contributors to me not now slavishly buying everything 40K RP related.

I think I will wait and see how this one pans out.

I was buying everything that came out for DH and then slowed down a little for RT. I'm still picking up books for the three lines, but not all of them and certainly in no hurry. Well, except for Rites of Battle. And the shop I got it from? Apparently they had sold twenty in the first week it was out. I suspect that even if people can't afford or want to pick up every single 40krpg book coming out, they'll still pick up some of what's out there. And since core books tend to sell better than supplements, a new core book isn't a bad idea for FFG at all imho.

To rehash what I mentioned elsewhere, when talking about how "we don't need another core book, this could be a supplement", you need to look at things from the other side of the equation.

For example, I know more than a few people who don't like DH, and prefer RT instead, citing the former as being less fun because you're not playing a heroic enough character (personally I like playing a mook who has to work his way up to being important).

They wouldn't be happy if they were told they had to buy a DH supplement to play chaos. Just like I'm sure some people would be annoyed if the full rules (not like one or two careers) for playing Eldar were found in a Rogue Trader supplement.

That kind of strategy only works if you assume that most people are buying from all three lines to begin with.

ak-73 said:

I can totally understand why they took the route they did. I don't think DH could of done Space marines justice, there was a load of fluff and extra rules they had to include i mean come on one core book covering all this stuff? would just be overwhelming not to mention 10k plus pages. I suspect that BC Much like death watch demanded its own book, the supplement for DH just didn't cut the muster at all at least for me., Bottom line you get what you pay for and DW, and RT, were Worth every penny and i think alot more then DH

I know I will buy it.

I've got the 3 core books so far. There are plenty of books from each line that I am still interested in picking up. Whether or not I actually play a chaos game I am not sure, but I will use these for villains in any of the other 3 games. I'm really looking forward to the Xenos Compendium and Mark of the Xenos as well. I don't mind "core" books if they maintain good cross compatibility. I suspect they know what they are doing when it comes to sales.

macd21 said:

Good point. However a lot of players have a DH or whatever campaign going on... they will be looking for material to boost their campaign, not a new game.

@N0-1_H3r3: Don't understand the appeal of "LOL, Chaos." Plenty of gamers will be attracted to an evil campaign. There is no doubt in my mind wrt that.

Alex

Generally speaking, core books sell significantly better than supplements. Thus the many player handbooks/GM guides/monster manuals out there - where a single volume could just as easily cover the essentials, rehashed games in digestive formats, re-released boxes with a slightly revised content, .5 editions of existing lines, and so on.

If you didn't buy Rogue Trader, you won't get The Frozen Reaches either. But you might buy Black Crusade. More background material for fans with big wallets, new recruits might enter the gaming universe. Everybody wins.

I'd say it's a sound business decision.

it's pretty much a guaranteed buy from me. I've most of the books out, though I won't buy any DW supplements, expect maybe a bestiary because I would use it elsewhere.

but also I love Chaos, it is the awesomest thing ever to come out of GW, so I'd get this even if I wasn't playing rpgs.

tkis said:

Yes, I am so tired of this myself. I will not buy this one, I already have: Radicals Handbook, DH core, Disciples of Dark Gods, DW core, Emperor Protects, if I can not come up with a decent chaos marine with all that material then something is wrong. FFG seriously needs to just make a 40k core book. Is that so much to ask?

Sammail said:

That's not in fact true for me. I didn't buy the DW corebook, but I have bought the Emperor Protects module, as I like the setting fluff in it.

I'm checking all sourcebooks for good and useable new fluff, I have all the rules I need, good new fluff ... that's what I have to spend time creating every week, so that's what I'll happily pay for someone else to come up with for me.

Nimon said:

Unfortunately the customer base doesn't seem to realise they are not getting good value for money, so there is not yet an incentive for FFG to change it's ways. If they can sell stacks of easy corebooks, for a bigger price tag than sourcebooks that sell less well, ... they will.

I agree with you though, it's the worst thing for us as customers.

You mean it's bad for you , rather than it's bad for all customers. Some people will only ever buy one of the corebooks, and under the current system they would only need to buy one book. In your system, they would have to buy two.

Plus, it is well known that corebooks sell the best of any RPG books, as they are the only books that are required to run the game. Any subsequent supplements sell at an increasingly decreasing rate, due to so many people never getting anything other than the corebook.

Not saying that it doesn't work (as it does for other companies), but just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't good for customers of one stripe or another.

If you would have asked me a couple years ago if this economy could support a new game line that relies on selling a steady stream of $50-$60 rulebooks, I'd have said you were crazy- but I guess I've been proven wrong.

Adeptus-B said:

Honestly, it's a well documented trend that in poor economy entertainment hobbies which are relatively cheap tend to thrive. Thus leading to an upswing in movie attendance, book buying, and seemingly RPG purchases as well.

It's a matter of perception of value.

What's better, a book that costs $50-60 and can easily provide thousands of hours of entertainment to multiple people or a $60 video game that provides, on average maybe 6-8 hours of single player story and a hundred or so hours, if it's any good, of multiplayer?

How many video games do you shell out $60 for over the course of a year? 5-6, more?

How many times a month do you go to a movie and pay $10 a pop just for a ticket? God help you if you are one of the suckers who buys snacks at a theater.

My group is normally 6 people and we play 6 hour sessions, sometimes longer, on average twice a month.

So a $60 book provides roughly 144 hours a year of game time, hundreds more with how much I go back and reread them. For 6 people that's 864 hours a year of game time.

That book is around $.07 an hour for a group of 6 or $.42 an hour for one persons cost over a year. I currently run one game that's been going for over 3 years.

A two hour movie @ $10 = $5 an hour per person.

I'll be generous, a 10 hour single player video game @ $60 = $6 an hour, 100 hours of multiplayer brings that down to $.57 an hour for the game, if you play that much multiplayer.

$60 core books really aren't that expensive when you start looking at how much value they represent.

The pathetic part with me is that with most RPGs, 40k ones included, I probably get more enjoyment out of a video game ... if you don't count message boarding at least.

But they're still worth it to me. Both for the off chance I will get to play. Or just to read in general.

When I told my friend about the announcement he said, "They keep hitting the money tree, don't they?" My thought was, if it keeps dropping money, why not?

If this works better for them financially, and it makes it more likely for them to produce more (like an eldar or an ork game), then I am all for it. A lot of books have crossover potential. I keep wanted to run Frozen Reaches using Dark Heresy rules as an Imperial Guard campaign. I'm definitely using Creatures Anathema for all 3 games.

If you don't feel it adds enough to your game, don't pick it up. I for one can't wait to have more robust chaos rules.

MILLANDSON said:

Okay ... so other than for these unusual gamers who don't like owning more than the corebook (I've never met one, but I'll accept they may exist), I still say (regardless of the financial reasoning of FFG) for us it's not good to be given annual new corebooks, to some degree repeating rules from earlier corebooks, and starting new lines that inevitably will then take a cut of the ongoing sourcebooks production schedule.

Thinking about it, even your postulated book-hating gamers aren't best served by corebooks so focused on one specific part of the setting they apparently limit the ability of that book-hating GM to create a wide range of adventures and campaigns in the setting.

deinol said:

Indeed. I would love to see an Eldar based addition to the WH40K RPG line. It would make a great tie-in with Rogue Trader.

Above all else, or in spite of, Black Crusade will provide excellent source material for all the rest of the line. Fleshed out adversaries and villains. Gothic Space Opera needs a bunch of scene chewing bad guys!