A discussion on Extreme Maneuvers Kylo. Have you flown him? Have you flown against? What are your thoughts? Discuss!

Breakdown:

Because the Silencer's autothrusters allow a boost or barrel roll after performing any action, this allows Extreme Kylo many options of how to attack you. The options available to Kylo allows him to attack almost every round without ever doing a red maneuver.

A 2 hard with EM boost is similar to the ETA Actis purple talon, only Kylo decides if he really wants to waste a force to turn or not.

Kylo never has to engage until he is ready. He can fly away from danger, and when danger turns away, he can EM boost and immediately be in the action. This is the reason I have flown Daredevil on Soontir for quite awhile now. It keeps him alive and from not falling into traps. Benefit of EM though, is no stress.

What makes Kylo so special?

Kylo doesnt spend force except for attacking and defending. This leaves him open to either link a roll -> EM or EM -> roll for a single force point. Ships like Aethersprite have to spend a force for full throttle, then spend another force for EM. Its a two force double reposition that will quickly drain and not sustainable under pressure, and you cant have it as an option every round setting dials like Kylo. ETA Actis have the same restrictions. One force to system phase boost/roll and another force to EM.

VISUALS

If you havent seen EM Kylo in action, below is a GIF I created just using Fly Casual to show off what Extreme Kylo is capable of if you have not had the displeasure of flying against him (not that he is NPE, but he shoots you, alot.)

The gif is actual three different moments of the match (outlined in different colors to separate them).

RED - Kylo doesnt engage until Kylo wants to engage. He flies along board edge away from the ships, is able to roll out of range of arcs pointing at him and EM Boost to shoot the closest Xwing.

GREEN - Kylo flies passed his opponents and rolls left, in front of a rock. Normal boost wont get him out and normally a ship is screwed in this situation. EM boost allows him to turn away. The top Xwing appears safe next round, but a hard 2 EM Boost from Kylo gets him a shot on the Xwing whether the Xwing turns to fight or not. The Xwing does not have a good move.

YELLOW - Getting Behind Kylo is not a safe zone. HE WILL SHOOT YOU. Rolling away and EM Boost inwards is Extreme Kylo's bread and butter. Its like a mini decloak hard 1 with phantoms, only at init 5.

Some lists I created for EM Kylo.

List #1 sets up Kylo as early game support to setup those missile SFs and then he can switch to late game finisher with APTs.

List #2 is just solid. Main disadvantage is no bid, but Mal and friends in that miniswarm can do some damage and get Kylo to that endgame scenario. Use EM to keep Kylo alive.

I really love List #3 as it covers Kylo's weaknesses aka Initiative 6 pilots. Im also an ace player, so the more the merrier. Rush provides great early game blocking, and late game hunting.

LIST #1

Kylo Ren (76)
Extreme Maneuvers (4)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (5)
XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (2)

Zeta Squadron Survivor (32)
Concussion Missiles (6)

Zeta Squadron Survivor (32)
Concussion Missiles (6)

Zeta Squadron Survivor (32)
Ion Missiles (2)
Total: 197

LIST #2

Kylo Ren (76)
Extreme Maneuvers (4)

Commander Malarus (45)

Epsilon Squadron Cadet (25)

Epsilon Squadron Cadet (25)

Epsilon Squadron Cadet (25)
Total: 200

LIST #3

Kylo Ren (76)
Extreme Maneuvers (4)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (5)

"Rush" (57)

Major Vonreg (55)
Total: 197

Not scared of Extreme Kylo?

Nope.

I tested EM in Fly Casual too, and yes, he moves and reposition very well, but I think he lose damage consistency (like Daredevil Vonreg).

Kylo shots more and when he wants, but is not so scary.

Kylo, unlike the Jedi, has two resources: Stress for reposition and Force to modify results. You lose mods for more options on one that is already one of the best arc-dodgers in the game.

If you have points, sure, it's good, but not so good to be autoinclude.

I have to test it more, anyway, but for me is probably the more disappointing upgrade of the new Wave (I expected to use this on Kylo too).

Buut, if you are using the linked boost from the chassis, that action is red and can't be affected by extreme maneuvers. So the only way to get 2 actions including the hard turn boost is to extreme maneuvers boost and then link a barrel roll. Not that impressed. It would be really scary though if it could turn red boost into purple, but it's not the case.

Ok my bad, I think I made I mess in my head with daredevil when I was thinking about both upgrades for the eta-2.

Extreme Maneuvers doesn't say the boost has to be white. You just spend the force to use a different template. Still get the stress if it's a linked boost. It's different from Daredevil because that specifies that the boost has to be white.

A very neat idea. Can't wait to try it.

Super cool, one more list idea:

Kylo Ren (76)
Extreme Maneuvers (4)

Lieutenant Tavson (64)
Agent Terex (7)

Captain Phasma (38)
Fanatical (2)
Special Forces Gunner (9)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Throw "Pattern-analyser" on him as well, and he can talon, and then using "Extreme manouvers" go 1-hard, practically 270 degrees of movement.

Thing is... if I am spending points on Kylo, who is pretty expensive already, I kind of want to spend 1 point more to get "Sense" instead of "Extreme manouvers"? (Not hyperspace legal tho). "Sense" I think is kind of important against those new i6 pilots we have just gotten.

I mean, looks like a very good upgrade on Kylo. Beyond that? Well, it's early.

19 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, looks like a very good upgrade on Kylo. Beyond that? Well, it's early.

Kylo was the immediate easy peg, but I might try it on a Luke build. X-wings aren't aces, but perhaps with a minor maneuverability upgrade he can be. It's not as versatile as SNR was at launch, but it might give him that extra little something to play better with the big bois.

Yeah, Luke has some force to spare. does he get boost normally?

S-Foils closed

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah, Luke has some force to spare. does he get boost normally?

With closed S-Foils, or with Afterburners.

2 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

With closed S-Foils, or with Afterburners.

I don't believe Afterburners lets you equip Extreme Maneuvers, as it doesn't add the Boost action to the action bar.

Just now, 5050Saint said:

I don't believe Afterburners lets you equip Extreme Maneuvers, as it doesn't add the Boost action to the action bar.

No. You equip it with closed S-Foils. The Afterburners are just another way to use it.

7 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

With closed S-Foils, or with Afterburners.

I think isn't a legal config by the rules and the official App doesn't let you equip the upgrade because the base ship doesn't have the boost action on the action bar.

Althought the S-foils closed adds the boost, like the agility value with some upgrades, I think you must take the base ship profile at squadbuilding.

51 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

I think isn't a legal config by the rules and the official App doesn't let you equip the upgrade because the base ship doesn't have the boost action on the action bar.

Althought the S-foils closed adds the boost, like the agility value with some upgrades, I think you must take the base ship profile at squadbuilding.

Another example of this is the HWK-290. It has a red boost and can therefore equip Engine Upgrade to have a white boost, but you still can't give the pilot Daredevil afterward.

2 hours ago, S4ul0 said:

I think isn't a legal config by the rules and the official App doesn't let you equip the upgrade because the base ship doesn't have the boost action on the action bar.

The official app is a bit borked right now, as last I checked it wasn't allowing VTG on ships even when they had a turret.

So you can certainly add the upgrades on YASB, and there's nothing stopping you from putting EM on Luke. It's just only usable when the s-foils are closed. Or Daredevil on a ship with engine upgrade.

Can't daredevil with afterburners cause the boost is not added to the action bar. (unless the ship has a white boost already on the bar.)

You probably can EM with afterburners though.

2 hours ago, Madtheos said:

Another example of this is the HWK-290. It has a red boost and can therefore equip Engine Upgrade to have a white boost, but you still can't give the pilot Daredevil afterward.

Wait, I dont think thats right.

I thoight you can equip engine upgrade and daredevil, just like you can equip squad leader and then tactical officer.

Rules Reference:

"Action: If there is an action icon, this upgrade can be equipped only to a
ship with that action on its action bar. This does not include actions on its
linked action bar. "[P.22]

But...

"Some upgrade cards have an action bar that lists one or more actions.

These actions are added to the ship’s action bar and therefore are standard actions that the ship can perform." [P.3]

And...

"Q: If a ship equips an upgrade that alters one of its values (such as agility), how does this affect variable cost u pgrades?

A: Other upgrades are ignored when calculating variable costs, and the base values of the ship are used." [P.30]

With this ruling, I am more in the "is not a legal build" camp and you ignore (like the official App) other upgrade cards, but maybe I am wrong...

With VTG and the Y-Wing, you add the Rotate action by Turret upgrade too, and we have played this combo from the start of Second Edition.

Anyway, this is the right section:

21 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

"Q: If a ship equips an upgrade that alters one of its values (such as agility), how does this affect variable cost u pgrades?

A: Other upgrades are ignored when calculating variable costs, and the base values of the ship are used." [P.30]

With this ruling, I am more in the "is not a legal build" camp and you ignore (like the official App) other upgrade cards, but maybe I am wrong...

With VTG and the Y-Wing, you add the Rotate action by Turret upgrade too, and we have played this combo from the start of Second Edition.

Anyway, this is the right section:

I think this refers to things like delta-7b jedi paying extra for their shield upgrades despite having 2 agility, but there are plenty of examples of how actions from upgrade cards can allow you to equip stuff you otherwise couldn't.

I have built several lists with the previous official squad builder including HWKs with engine upgrade + daredevil, or a reaper carrying director Krennic to get a lock and Moff Tarkin to use it, all turret gunners being equipable after choosing a turret... Just because it's a configuration that you can deploy with either side face up I don't think there is any reason why S-foils shouldn't work the same way.

I can see these won't work anymore in the new app. Maybe rules have changed? Weird, I don't remember any new clarification in the rules regarding this.

32 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

I think this refers to things like delta-7b jedi paying extra for their shield upgrades despite having 2 agility, but there are plenty of examples of how actions from upgrade cards can allow you to equip stuff you otherwise couldn't.

Yes. I bring up this entry only for interpretative reasons.

34 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

Just because it's a configuration that you can deploy with either side face up I don't think there is any reason why S-foils shouldn't work the same way.

Because is a dual card, and one side doesn't add anything to the action bar, and because you don't choose the face up side until you deploy.

There are builds that could work, but this is an extreme case.

I think it's not a terrible take, that added actions don't allow upgrades which rely on the actions.

However, I disagree with it.

For a large part of 2e, this was allowed, and the App let folks add stuff like Squad Leader and Tactical Officer to the same ship. Could be that FFG has intended a change, but I'll need more convincing than the app doesn't work, and analogy to variable costs.

It's one of those cases where both sides have honest and reasonable RAW interpretations.

We have precedent in that up until this new app launched, we were able to put Daredevil on X-Wings which is almost exactly what Extreme Maneuvers is.

2 hours ago, S4ul0 said:

Because is a dual card, and one side doesn't add anything to the action bar, and because you don't choose the face up side until you deploy.

You choose the side in setup which is also when you are select what upgrades you are using. Contrast that with dual side configurations like the HMP's Stabilizers which has text like " Setup: Equip this side face up".

The current App version doesn't allow the VTG on the Y-Wing with a Turret selected too.

The App doesn't work? I don't remember if the Daredevil upgrade on T-65 was allowed by older versions of the official App but with the Gunner seems like an error...

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Edit:

Ok, on this thread we have an answer:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/285084-squad-builder-bug-reporting/page/6/#comments

Quote

Veteran Turret Gunner can now be equipped by ships that equip a turret first.*

• *Note that when adding an upgrade that grants an action, that upgrade must be added and the ship added to the squad first. After the ship is added to the squad with the new upgrade (by tapping the check mark), any action requirements for subsequent upgrades will be recognized. For example, Veteran Turret Gunner will not show up as a Gunner option for a Y-wing until you have added that Y-Wing with Dorsal turret to the squad first.

But, It doesn't work with Luke, Extreme Maneuvers and S-Foils.