On 11/20/2020 at 5:54 PM, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, you can lay off with the ad hominem attacks just because I posted in the first person.

ANYONE who loves Epic as their main XWM had the same problems, including some folks I used to love to follow on these forums who quit the game.

Moreover, you miss the whole point that XWM would be well served by creating more niches for players to explore (or making sure those playstyles are better than niche), and that I think that lack of development is what is hurting the long-term future of this game.

It's by no means an "ad hominem attack". I'm pointing out that your position is clearly established to be entirely self-centred rather than representative of the community or the needs of the game as a whole. This is demonstrated with you talking about FFG "hanging you out to dry" by apparently not immediately doing what you wanted them to do when 2nd edition arrived. Make unreasonable arguments, expect incredulous replies.

As for missing points... once again you completely dismiss the fact that FFG has presented many different ways for players to enjoy X-Wing - competitive and casual, standard and epic, hyperspace and extended, themed and much more - throughout 2nd edition's lifespan and even the past year. The scenarios in the Epic Battles expansion were mentioned above. As were the prototype Solo Play rules and themed events like the Battle of Yavin. Then there's the environment cards in the obstacles and devices packs... the list goes on.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Epic is nothing more than Huge ships + Standard.

Patently false. Want evidence? You gave it yourself:

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

There are exactly 3 other "Epic-specific" ideas: Dreadnaught Hunter, The Hyperring, and Wings.

...and scenarios. So either you're indulging in hyperbolic arguments (which doesn't help your case) or you're directly contradicting yourself (which doesn't help your case).

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Epic 2.0 got a conversion kit and then forgotten. Which, as usual, isn't much of a surprise.

And again, this is totally false. We've already discussed about what else has been released, and we know for a fact that alternate game modes like Aces High and Team Battles with huge ships were going to be featured and supported in 2020's events - before they were unfortunately cancelled.

Which brings us neatly back to the other rather obvious point: it's very much worth noting that the 2nd edition Huge Ships, conversion kit and Epic Battles expansions only arrived in November 2019. A couple of months before future plans were pretty heavily disrupted (if not now outright scrapped) by unfortunate and uncontrollable external events. So if we ignore the immature "as usual, isn't much of a surprise" snark, it's more than a little unfair to suggest that Epic was "forgotten" when we only had three months of effective normality following it's release, and didn't get the opportunity to see FFG's plans for the format come to fruition.

3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

FFG did a great job with Huge ships, but Epic 2.0 got a conversion kit and then forgotten.

Which, as usual, isn't much of a surprise.

This is rather misinformed conclusion. You are aware that the ETA-2 is coming with the Hyperspace Ring (an upgrade not legal in standard) and a new Command card, right?
This might not be as much as desired, but it shows that not only is Epic not forgotten, but that FFG was looking at more ways to release Epic content (and maybe AMG will continue with this).

4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

This is rather misinformed conclusion. You are aware that the ETA-2 is coming with the Hyperspace Ring (an upgrade not legal in standard) and a new Command card, right?

Woohoo!!

1 accessory and a card.

You're right, that's amaaaaaaaazzing, since the last Epic update was last November.

About the only other group more underserved are the Rebel faction players.

And again, my point is that if FFG had dished out more Epic stuff, maybe more people would care, instead of constantly insisting it's the other way around.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Woohoo!!

1 accessory and a card.

You're right, that's amaaaaaaaazzing, since the last Epic update was last November.

About the only other group more underserved are the Rebel faction players.

And again, my point is that if FFG had dished out more Epic stuff, maybe more people would care, instead of constantly insisting it's the other way around.

Considering the “other way around” got X-Wing to one of the top slots in the Miniature market, it is actually a fair point to bring up.

And if you would like to re-read my post, I addressed it being a small amount. It does still prove that your claim that “epic was forgotten” is hyperbolic at best.

I get it. You (and others) wish epic was supported more. No complaint there. It’s when you start exaggerating your points that there is a problem.

22 hours ago, Sixter said:

I think 2.0 was a failure. The game became more dry because a lot of effects were toned down, but at the same time you have more upkeep because of token management. It´ is only fitting that you now have a meta dominated by swarms of generics.

As a casual player I would strongly prefer 1.0 (if anybody was still playing it) because of simplicity and more colorful combos. I am perfectly fine facing Dengaroo if I can field Palp Aces myself. I find 1.0 Parattani much more fun to play than Boba-Fenn in 2.0. I fail to see how 2.0 Boba-Fenn is somehow a more enjoyable experience to face or play than 1.0 Parattani.

Having bought most of the epic ships in 1.0 for a considerable sum it also felt premature to be going to 2.0 while the epic format was never developed.

I am actually very excited to see what this restructuring move does for X-wing. I think the game has been stagnating during 2.0 and I think there is a lot of room to make the game more attractive to the casual gamer again.

I think 2.0 was a push. I like the additional arcs and the mechanics they brought. I dislike the glut of red tokens, I'm calling out Deplete and Strain specifically. I don't think they bring anything interesting to the game, and add another layer of token management. I really dislike how they leaned into charges to manage once per turn abilities. (Using custom tokens meant you could easily tell them apart at a glance, now it's a sea of yellow charge tokens that all look alike.) I like the soft reset that allowed them to remove some upgrades from the game like Twin Laser Turret. I dislike how they leaned into "tradeoff" mechanics that wound up being wordy and complicated. "If this, then that, but..." I'm fine with building online so the game can adjust point values, I'm terribly dissapointed in the quality of the official online App.

etc, etc...

I kept all my 1.0 supplies. Someday I hope to pull it out of the closet and play some Retro-X-Wing.

On 11/20/2020 at 6:14 PM, eljms said:

I've been pondering this a little. I got into x-wing by accident. My wife bought a core set at Target thinking it was a board game. We liked it, bought some more models but didn't really play the rules 'properly' until I found out that some of my friends played.

I wonder what it would look like if there was some kind of 'deluxe' starter set that included a play mat and enough ships, pilots and upgrades to give a few options for a standard game. You could even do different versions aimed at recreating iconic battles.

Only problem is that it would need an RRP of close to $200. Maybe a sale price of $100 and try and sell it at mainstream stores (Walmart/Target in the US, Tesco/Asda in the UK)?

Its funny, I got into the game by being a huge SW fan and just wanting the gorgeous ship-models. Got the Millenium falcon and Boba Fett for X-mass, and just had them sitting on display for almost a year (loving the looks of them), then I got a coreset as another present later again for the models, and discovered there were "this little game rulebook" accompying these wonderful ships. Tried it and was 100% hooked on the game ever since. So please AMG keep those wonderful prepainted models!

6 hours ago, Sciencius said:

then I got a coreset as another present later

Yeah, I remember my first coreset vividly. . .

11 hours ago, SabineKey said:

I get it. You (and others) wish epic was supported more. No complaint there. It’s when you start exaggerating your points that there is a problem.

It's not just Epic though. Where is the official support for solo / co-op? Right now, it is (still) a beta pdf document. Why wasn't a fully worked out solo / coop ruleset out on day one? What about a campaign? Or how about "X-Wing cart"? I mean, FFG produced the Fireball and everything, but wouldn't it have been great if the rest of the racers from the show came out as well, timed to coincide with official race rules, a "track" play mat and other accessories? And speaking of accessories, wouldn't it be nice to have actual models of civilian ships that could be used in a scenario?

Environment Cards were a great addition... but how many players have ever played with them? And why should they, tournaments didn't use them and the rules weren't updated to increase their use in 200/6 (say by adding a "play board modification cards" phase, so Environment Cards become a part of squad building). Scenarios feel the same: great idea but one release and no official support in tournaments or the rules.

There are so many other ways to play, things that are more friendly than 200/6 and tournaments, but without official support those play methods become hyper localized and don't help bring in new players like they could.

14 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Woohoo!!

1 accessory and a card.

You're right, that's amaaaaaaaazzing, since the last Epic update was last November.

About the only other group more underserved are the Rebel faction players.

And again, my point is that if FFG had dished out more Epic stuff, maybe more people would care, instead of constantly insisting it's the other way around.

Agreed.

A lot of people on the forums seem to really not understand how badly the OP community is out of touch with the casual playerbase, and it feels like this move was a sort of reckoning of this. OP is NOT a viable sustainable primary consumerbase, you need your average "I want to pop into a shop once a month/week to play" kinda player to actually sustain the game. You may spend a lot on ships, but we are talking about a couple hundred players here, your not going to be keeping a miniatures game afloat. From a buisness/marketing perspective, keeping you happy is only an instrumental goal, you are here to 'advertise' the game, to 'jump people in.' And you do that well, OP in X-wing is great on onboarding casual "I just wanna have a good time" players and keeping local scenes alive. But holy crap, 2.0 is AWFUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLL at maintaining engagement with this sort of player and keeping them spending.

Between the 'big bombastic playmode' both being not as good as 40k's Apocalypse mode and making people walking through a store turn heads, to the utter lack of new product to excite fans of the most iconic and beloved trilogy basically ever, FFG did about as much as it could to ensure that X-wing wouldn't actually be a big feature game at local stores. The lack of support for Epic for example betrays how little FFG actually understands the minis market, because towering bombastic models surrounded by swarms of other ones isn't just a neat way to make a huge game night, it turns your local scene into an advertisement for the game by creating a huge visual spectacle in the store's floorspace. 40k introduced Imperial Knights not just because its a good way to get pseudo-Titans into regular play, but because a towering giant robot fighting an endless swarm of aliens is going to turn heads as people walk through the store and get them asking 'what is that?' and 'How do I get started playing?' FFG should have wanted every local X-wing game night to feature at least one table with a few epic ships for the same reason 40k went out of its way to make it so you could play a 4,000 or 5,000 point game filled with mega-tanks, walkers, and awesome looking models towering over legions of human soldiers with crazy weapons to try to fight back as a 'normal' game night and not apocalypse.

On 11/20/2020 at 10:11 AM, Frimmel said:

Or they had to put the quick-builds system in the boxes because otherwise you couldn't open the box and play immediately since points aren't on the cards due to the need to facilitate adjustments for the tourney scene.

All it needed though was a sheet with "estimated points costs" for each pilot and upgrade in the box (with a see the app message for optimized points). Myself, I really disliked the app obligation for points. It was a major negative.

2.0 was rushed out (for Asmodee sale I imagine). The app wasn't (and still isn't?) tested. They put on the spin saying "use the app for points" rather than "there's too much to playtest and we need to launch".

The no potential upgrade slots on the cards was the other crappy part. For me, at least. They seem to have made the game using agile methodology using the clients as QE.

Anyway. The game itself is good. New management? Let's see...

2 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Agreed.

A lot of people on the forums seem to really not understand how badly the OP community is out of touch with the casual playerbase, and it feels like this move was a sort of reckoning of this. OP is NOT a viable sustainable primary consumerbase, you need your average "I want to pop into a shop once a month/week to play" kinda player to actually sustain the game. You may spend a lot on ships, but we are talking about a couple hundred players here, your not going to be keeping a miniatures game afloat. From a buisness/marketing perspective, keeping you happy is only an instrumental goal, you are here to 'advertise' the game, to 'jump people in.' And you do that well, OP in X-wing is great on onboarding casual "I just wanna have a good time" players and keeping local scenes alive. But holy crap, 2.0 is AWFUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLL at maintaining engagement with this sort of player and keeping them spending.

Between the 'big bombastic playmode' both being not as good as 40k's Apocalypse mode and making people walking through a store turn heads, to the utter lack of new product to excite fans of the most iconic and beloved trilogy basically ever, FFG did about as much as it could to ensure that X-wing wouldn't actually be a big feature game at local stores. The lack of support for Epic for example betrays how little FFG actually understands the minis market, because towering bombastic models surrounded by swarms of other ones isn't just a neat way to make a huge game night, it turns your local scene into an advertisement for the game by creating a huge visual spectacle in the store's floorspace. 40k introduced Imperial Knights not just because its a good way to get pseudo-Titans into regular play, but because a towering giant robot fighting an endless swarm of aliens is going to turn heads as people walk through the store and get them asking 'what is that?' and 'How do I get started playing?' FFG should have wanted every local X-wing game night to feature at least one table with a few epic ships for the same reason 40k went out of its way to make it so you could play a 4,000 or 5,000 point game filled with mega-tanks, walkers, and awesome looking models towering over legions of human soldiers with crazy weapons to try to fight back as a 'normal' game night and not apocalypse.

It’s so much more than ‘a couple of hundred players’. Our local store alone has nearly a hundred players enrolled in its competitive league structure.

25 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

It’s so much more than ‘a couple of hundred players’. Our local store alone has nearly a hundred players enrolled in its competitive league structure.

Still, that's not really his point. The point is that there is a certain type of player who gets into this game at the shop, and has no problem playing the same list umpteen times to score swag. They are great as a window display to get folks to ask "what's that?"

But then that new player, having played 6 deathmatches, says "what else?" And XWM answers back, "Well, nothing. I mean, Epic but there hasn't been a release this year and no one plays cuz it's too long."

And they new player says, "So, there are 7 factions, but most players only play one, and moreover they play the same list over and over because 'Git Gud' is an official mantra of the game, so really my big chance to mix things up is to place Debris Fields instead of Asteroids because no one uses the Huge Ships, Environment Cards, or Missions."

And the OP player says, "Yeah, it's awesome."

And the new player becomes an ex-player who buys a game that will hold his interest for longer than 6 games.

In four years playing X-Wing I’ve introduced many new players and never once had an interaction anywhere close to that.

But recycling the ONLY thing you’ve had to say in the last three years for the seventeen thousandth time seems to make you happy so go ahead. We’ve all mostly tuned it out by now anyway.

46 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

In four years playing X-Wing I’ve introduced many new players and never once had an interaction anywhere close to that.

But recycling the ONLY thing you’ve had to say in the last three years for the seventeen thousandth time seems to make you happy so go ahead. We’ve all mostly tuned it out by now anyway.

And you can continue to think how important you are to a game that is sliding off the charts because OP is no longer getting it done. Your cohort of "hundreds of competitive players" has not kept XWM in it's #1 position on the miniatures charts, nor even kept it in the top 5.

****, the fact that you've gone tone deaf to what I have to say basically proves what @dezzmont had to say:

Quote

A lot of people on the forums seem to really not understand how badly the OP community is out of touch with the casual playerbase,

7 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

And you can continue to think how important you are to a game that is sliding off the charts because OP is no longer getting it done.

That’s such an odd take.

I certainly don’t think I’m important, nor would I want to be. I’ve rejected most offers that would open those doors. And I’ve been among the first outlining why the decline is happening as a result of investment funds being investment funds, and that it’s pretty much unstoppable.

Epic is pathetic. It would be trying to stop a hurricane with a loud fart.

10 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

And you can continue to think how important you are to a game that is sliding off the charts because OP is no longer getting it done.

Man. It's one thing to wish for additional ways to play. It's another to go completely bonkers and doomcast the game because they don't cater to you.

I've played Epic a handful of times, and really didn't enjoy it very much. So I don't care if it's supported or not.

Epic got announced, and it got a conversion kit. That one was a great buy!

And it actually alleviated one of the earlier FFG Epic f-ups, the blue line debacle on the C-Roc.

But then the slap into the face: our app does not support Epic. And never will. Find your own way.

Then slap number two: 100dollar Tantive delivered with wrong dial. A 100 dollar product and they cannot produce it right, neither fix it smoothly.

And as pointed out upwards. Yes we got some environment cards. But they are not very balanced, and they were never included in any official format.

And in our local club X-wing has collapsed completely now, the process started already before any Covid19 effects. Please guess what the people still coming and not doing Blood Bowl or other GW stuff do play now?

Legion.

And if you ask why, the answer is unisono, "here we have objectives, not the same senseless 400/6 rush at each other deathmatch with mostly unrealistic squad composition".

And let’s be clear: FFG want that to happen because they make more money from Legion armies than X-Wing squads. Running X-Wing down is a strategy.

50 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

Man. It's one thing to wish for additional ways to play. It's another to go completely bonkers and doomcast the game because they don't cater to you.

I've played Epic a handful of times, and really didn't enjoy it very much. So I don't care if it's supported or not.

I've played Standard a handful of times, and really didn't enjoy it very much.

The main problem here is that neither you, nor more importantly FFG, is listening.

52 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

I certainly don’t think I’m important, nor would I want to be. I’ve rejected most offers that would open those doors. And I’ve been among the first outlining why the decline is happening as a result of investment funds being investment funds, and that it’s pretty much unstoppable.

Epic is pathetic. It would be trying to stop a hurricane with a loud fart.

Epic is pathetic because FFG let it be that way. If they had spent any time at all designing for that environment, casual players could have had the colorful Star Wars-inspired game that many people first walk up to the table for.

Instead, they designed 2 editions of Sport-Wing, which in the long run didn't even keep the competitive players engaged.

24 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

And let’s be clear: FFG want that to happen because they make more money from Legion armies than X-Wing squads. Running X-Wing down is a strategy.

I'm doomcasting?

7 hours ago, Nspace said:

It's not just Epic though. Where is the official support for solo / co-op? Right now, it is (still) a beta pdf document....

Wow. So many bad takes, so little time.

It's like people are just completely ignorant of the effects this year has had in industry, let alone an industry that is a: the epitome of a non-essential luxury and b: reliant on international imports.

We know that FFG had a number of job losses even before Covid-19 became pandemic, and we know that they had staff furloughed and released afterwards.

We know that even during a such a difficult year, where working conditions were severely disrupted and pretty much every event planned post-February was cancelled, they still have us balance updartes and prototype rules for solo play,

Now we're also aware that FFG has become a victim of behind the scenes of corporate decision making, which has led to even more job losses for the company and the games they've worked so hard on for the last eight plus years being moved to a different studio. Something that was (alleged) planned for a while by Asmodee, but clearly without FFG"s knowledge. With that in mind, who knows what corporate obstacles they may have up facing over the last year or two?

Yet - despite all this - certain people are meeping on about not getting their own way.

They need to wake up and take a good look at themselves.

4 hours ago, dezzmont said:

A lot of people on the forums seem to really not understand how badly the OP community is out of touch with the casual playerbase.

Claptrap. You're artificially creating an "us versus them" divide where there really isn't one.

Maybe that's a symptom of 2020 and the current political situation, but it's far from an accurate representation of the community.

There is realistically very little difference between casual players and players who regularly attend organised events. They play the same game, with the same rules and the same products. Players who attend events probably play games more often and against wider range of other players, but that's really it.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

B ut then that new player, having played 6 deathmatches, says "what else?" And XWM answers back, "Well, nothing. I mean, Epic but there hasn't been a release this year and no one plays cuz it's too long."

Codswallop. As mentioned above (and once again you've completely ignored), FFG had planned to include different games modes like Aces High and Team Epic during this year's events, before they were unfortunately cancelled. Both Aces High and Epic were played at Worlds last year, to a positive response.

And - AGAIN - Epic had only been available for three months before the pandemic shut everyone's plans for the year down.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

And you can continue to think how important you are to a game that is sliding off the charts because OP is no longer getting it done.

****, the fact that you've gone tone deaf to what I have to say basically proves what @dezzmont had to say:

And again, we see people trying to divide the player base into some me kind of arbitrary "us vs them".

I find it ironic that someone who outright refused to buy into second edition for almost two years after it's release has the nerve to blame people who've actually played the game since the start for it's apparent decline.

As for the tone deaf jibe... at least Two Accounts has been addressing your points in good faith, rather than just ignoring them. Talk about pot, kettle, black.

34 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

... .Epic is pathetic because FFG let it be that way. If they had spent any time at all designing for that environment, casual players could have had the colorful Star Wars-inspired game that many people first walk up to the table for.

It's not pathetic though, is it? Second edition X-Wing is an improvement on first edition. Second edition Epic is an improvement on first edition as well.

None is stopping you playing X-Wing however you want. All you have to do is find people willing to play.

I've played Epic X-Wing (as well as other formats) at half a dozen Organised Play events, with dozens of other players, in three different countries in the past three years. Organised Play isn't some kind of barrier to enjoying the game in different ways; it actually promotes it.

2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Wow. So many bad takes, so little time.

Yet - despite all this - certain people are meeping on about not getting their own way.

They need to wake up and take a good look at themselves.

Claptrap.

Codswallop.

And again, we see people trying to divide the player base into some me kind of arbitrary "us vs them".

I find it ironic that someone who outright refused to buy into second edition for almost two years after it's release has the nerve to blame people

Talk about pot, kettle, black.

None is stopping you playing X-Wing however you want. All you have to do is find people willing to play.

Takes the moral high ground while telling everyone they are wrong and should feel bad with microaggressions.

In any event, the usual gang of "X-Wing is fine as-is, how dare you" folks are in this thread, so it's probably time to call it quits.

3 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

And let’s be clear: FFG want that to happen because they make more money from Legion armies than X-Wing squads. Running X-Wing down is a strategy.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I'm doomcasting?

Gotta say, Meanie's take that "X-Wing put all its eggs in a tournament basket that collapsed once the pandemic hit and there was no momentum keeping sales going to other, more casual beer-and-pretzel home audiences" is much more likely than SOTL's "Asmodee is self-sabotaging their own sales to encourage sales of another game they own that shares an IP but plays completely different, requires a hobbyist/modeling desire, a higher monetary buy-in resulting in a net negative of potential customers."

4 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Claptrap. You're artificially creating an "us versus them" divide where there really isn't one.

Maybe that's a symptom of 2020 and the current political situation, but it's far from an accurate representation of the community.

There is realistically very little difference between casual players and players who regularly attend organised events. They play the same game, with the same rules and the same products. Players who attend events probably play games more often and against wider range of other players, but that's really it.

No conversation has ever been more my wheelhouse on this forum than this one. I am going to try to give you a basic 101 level marketing course to help illustrate why FFG did so amazingly poorly at it I am literally adding it to my collection of 'what not to do' case studies.

The fact you think that the 'beer and pretzel gamer' who bought a core set and 2 space ships has the same needs and outlook on the game as the person who is ride or die to tournaments booking hotels and tuning their list based on excelent data articles by other tournament players to ensure they can beat all comers in the meta after buying 5 new plastic spaceships per-tournament have the same needs, you are part of the problem. This isn't even a X-wing specific concept, this is called market segmentation, its a super basic concept any business utilizes to evaluate the different needs of different types of people in their target market. FFG could be selling a cleaning products and there would still be a need to consider how different people want to use the product, look at how Swiffer markets itself to two entirely different consumer bases: College Students and Busy Moms. Its just more important for ongoing collectable games because the necessity of creating a personal relationship with the product.

This isn't to say these two player types can't co-exist either. Most games manage it. MTG did some surface level market segmentation dividing the type of people who want to play complex collectable games into three types, Timmy, Johnny, and Spike, and the OP community is basically all Spikes. Your perspective is hecking valid, and Spikes are naturally a bit 'higher mantinance' but the fact that the attention of X-wing was almost entirely enveloped into the desires for OP players was objectively something that did way more harm than good. Because while you need to avoid making anything that actively angers spikes to the point that OP dies, you also need to kinda... ignore them when they complain about cards for Timmy or Johnny ever touching the OP meta, because the OP environment needs strategies Timmy and Johnny like too.

For example, 'you wouldn't like a game where control was good' is a supreme example of the Spike mindset, but in fact Johnny would LOVE a game where control was good. This was something a designer for X-wing unironically said which got adopted as a universal truth by the community on these forums that is, to be blunt, objectively wrong? We know from studying the market of collectable games for some odd 20 years. We actually have a pretty good understanding in both marketing and ludology that control would be an archetype many players find fun and the actual challenge isn't ensuring control isn't good, but ensuring control is good in a way that feels like your still rewarded for 'traditional skills' so valuable to Spikes.

4 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Codswallop. As mentioned above (and once again you've completely ignored), FFG had planned to include different games modes like Aces High and Team Epic during this year's events, before they were unfortunately cancelled. Both Aces High and Epic were played at Worlds last year, to a positive response.

Well if wishes plans were horses bud. Not launching with multiple game modes baked into the DNA of the casual 2.0 landscape was clearly a mistake. No one is arguing that FFG didn't have ideas to mix thing up. They are arguing they weren't a priority at ALL despite diverse play modes being a huge selling feature of collectable games in the market shortly before Covid.

Part of the problem is that FFG... very openly treated Epic like garbage and didn't care. And that is bad, worse than Epic merely being 'not good' because, again, a huge part of marketing a collectable game is creating an emotional connection to the product. A really good way to kill that connection is for the product to feel like it doesn't care about you.

I can think of no way to do that faster than to release a long in demand product a lot of people felt should have been in the game at launch but wasn't (understandable), and then failing to support it in the app that is 'required' to play the game.

That is... as we say in the communications field, a, 'uhoh,' a big oopsie, a fall down the bad idea tree hitting every branch.

It was incompetence.

Product rollouts are a thing that you should be able to do. I am not saying any individual at FFG made the choice to be incompetent, but FFG as a whole was grossly incompetent during the rollout for Epic in a way that damaged brand perception in a big way.

The message your sending to the 'ultra loyal' casual playerbase, the group that is willing to make your product look as exciting and bombastic on store tables as possible and pay through the nose for doing so is 'your so much of an afterthought that not only did we not launch for this, but the excuse can't be that it was because we weren't ready, because we weren't ready now.'

And I know they were planning to rework the app. But you wanna here a secret? That is worse. It means that when they designed the app for this game they didn't plan ahead to include variant casual play modes at all. And they didn't care enough about Epic to go out of their way to update it before the launch.

Maybe they cared about epic a lot. Maybe their hands were tied, or maybe they had a rework to the app being worked on for day 1 and the timing didn't work out. But that doesn't matter . You can be the most benevolent well meaning company ever but your choices for how you release and market your products are what they are and the only thing the customer base is going to judge you on is the end result. You gotta actually deliver

And if your a 200/6 Op player? Sucks, you wanted to give epic a try, but it isn't too big a problem. But if you are a fan of epic, or a casual player who is dissatisfied with 200/6 and getting trashed by gatekeeper ships all the time? It tells you very clearly that FFG, intentionally or not, is not willing to invest resources into maintaining your good time.

This isn't the only big huge market segmentation oopsie FFG did, the great 'Go to **** OT players' issue is arguably way worse in terms of how to mishandle stewarding a product (Because, you know, not monetizing the OT isn't just a good way to make people feel like the product doesn't care about them, but is also a refusal to print money), but its a great example case because there is absolutely no excuse for how badly Epic was handled. The literal only conclusion you can draw from the handling of Epic was that it wasn't a priority and it was mishandled. The question is more 'how much do you care about that.'

There is no artificial division here. There is just a division. We aren't same team bud, and people on the forums have been trying to tell people like you that for a long time. Acting outraged that I am 'trying to divide the playerbase' misses the point, that you are in fact already standing alone. That doesn't mean we aren't one community, and can't co-exist, we absolutely should. All wargames NEED their OP communities, and those communities deserve to be happy and healthy. But holy crap do you guys not understand how casual players think sometimes, and the fact of the matter is you all really need to take more time to practice empathy. I am not saying you gotta agree with casual players or even think they are right, but the sheer level of scorn that oozes from OP towards certain things casual players want is... visible, and gross.

Like, a meta example in this thread: Hey maybe stop telling the person who's primary concern is their favorite casual play mode is second banana in FFG's eyes when it super obviously is that they are wrong and just trying to stir the pot or cause strive. You shouldn't come at a disagreement accusing the other person of just being deliberately deceptive or inflammatory because that is a deliberate attempt to avoid engaging with their point of view. It means you aren't talking to them, you just want to be right so bad that anyone who has a different viewpoint and values to you has to be LYING.

Think about that for a second. Someone is telling you to your face that you don't understand them or their desires and has given a pretty clear example of that and why they think that, and your response isn't to say 'Oh I don't agree but its clear this is important to this player' but instead accusing them of some conspiracy to artificially divide the community. What is more likely? Darth Meanie is some weird agent of mischief trying to kill X-wing from the inside just... I dunno... because? Or Darth Meanie cares about different things than you and its hard for you to understand Meanie's viewpoint without first recognizing they want different things than you, and you refuse to do that to the point you need to invent a reason for Meanie to do what they did while still sharing your beliefs about the game.

Your conspiratorial mindset towards people saying "Hey Epic was important to me and shafted" is a perfect example of why you ARE out of touch. You just put it on full display here and its kinda amazing. "I am not out of touch, your just lying about what you want!"

And, again, I am not saying OP is not important, or that it should bend over backward for the casual player base. We shouldn't go back to 1.0's wacky nonsense just to appease the casual playerbase. What I am saying, though, is that OP is a bit more out of touch than it thinks it is, and some of the things it wants if perused too much hurt the casual player base. We SHOULD be same team, even if we aren't the same faction in the same team, but right now we just aren't and that is in part a listening problem and a refusal to engage with ideas you don't agree with in good faith. In fact, for a game to survive both sides of the community don't just need to exist, but be stoked the other side does as well. And that just... isn't the case at the moment.

TL;DR : Get a grip my dude, you are in fact out of touch to the point you believe people are conspiring to divide the community to avoid engaging with them telling you to your face that they think your out of touch. This doesn't make you a bad person, but it does make you kinda part of the problem, when ideally we should want every pillar of this community to support each other even if we value different things.

12 hours ago, Nspace said:

It's not just Epic though. Where is the official support for solo / co-op? Right now, it is (still) a beta pdf document. Why wasn't a fully worked out solo / coop ruleset out on day one? What about a campaign? Or how about "X-Wing cart"? I mean, FFG produced the Fireball and everything, but wouldn't it have been great if the rest of the racers from the show came out as well, timed to coincide with official race rules, a "track" play mat and other accessories? And speaking of accessories, wouldn't it be nice to have actual models of civilian ships that could be used in a scenario?

• Campaign
• X-wing Racer

We need them.

I'm so far behind this conversation 😅 😔 Can I just say though, no playing, y'all keeping pretty cool about it all things considered for our usual antics. So we got that going for us, which is nice. I wish this was a discord discussion because I think we'd get further with it.

Since I'm so far behind, I'm going to just post loosely, because for me the truth is kinda in the margins of the positions so far made. In no particular order.

Epic is fine. Like, dang gurl u fine level fine. It had some weak spots. But anyone I've named to actually sit down and get to play a round have acknowledged it as good. The weak spots are fixable. A few things on Epic:

-It's new, like, brand spanking new. It hasn't gotten a lot of support because it hasn't had time too. Is that a drag for a player like @Darth Meanie , and to an extent me, who want to focus in that area? Sure. The HSRing? Not even something I consider because in all reality it could have been a standard piece and no one would have been any the wiser. But I don't think that's a problem. We get a Wing card, thanks for the nod, we're good. Any given wave had the opportunity to shake up Epic because it had content for epic regardless of what format it's branded for. That imaginably makes it hard to make content for Epic, on top of poor data reporting, since we can flip every single wave. We in epic land get ours in that way, just not in so many words. But in all reality, me and DM have so much to pick through still that we don't have any room to really complain yet. But we're getting there.

-One actual release a year of an Epic product (not a ring), we should be good. "Big Guns hardpoint card pack", "Captains and Crews cardpack", A Huge Ship, something, would keep us realistically happy.

-1.0 epic was sub par on a good day, 2.0E is making par on a bad day. Getting people to actually play a round of it, that's the hard part. Epic has this perception of being "too long", or "too complicated". It's not. Simple fact. Full stop. The scenarios special rules take about as long as a quick planning phase to resolve. And the games are not double like they used to be, often they're %150 a normal games allotment. If you dropped a lightly equipped Falcon into a normal standard list, you could actually be too much for an epic game. People don't realize this yet for whatever reason. 300pts is not a lot. And wings!? Turns one and two go by quick. As in between two players there might only be four activations level of quick. Not to mention most scenarios have a round limit of like 8 or less, and standard is like 12 or so usually. Public perception of epic scale and time, is wrong.

***On the comp-casual debate***

-There absolutely is a disconnect between the comp and casual sides. If nothing else was proof, this thread should be. I learned this all too well while playtesting a game for FFG a few years ago, not X-wing, (can't talk about much yet). For reasons I'm not certain I can legally describe, I quit playtesting for them. Because despite being a extremely involved casual player, event and community organizer, capable competition player, I was still 'just a casual' for their consideration. (Per my NDA, I am allowed to admit that I was a playtester for a product, but I'm not allowed to say much else, or ask for special treatment because of that prior status, or reveal playtesting process, sorry. I can't talk about future releases. )

***On ad hominem attack, you know who I'm talking too***

-Attacking the particulate reasons why someone feels a way about a thing IS attacking them, and not their point. If it was valid ground to attack a position based on the personal preference of the poster, than we should have ridiculed the Gunboat crowd back to the stone age for wanting something for themselves all those years ago. Selfish wants are not worthy of attacking just because they are selfish. The want itself may be debatable. But a beauty of the forum is that we can advocate our self, as well as our groups and sub-groups. It may not always come off palatable, but it is valid.

***On Aces High***

This was not a 'game mode'. It was a scenario for Epic, where it's rules are printed. Please stop trying to call it anything else so that we don't needlessly subvert Epic any further than we already have. But for your consideration, the fact that Aces High gets such focus should also highlight how players in X-wing tend to focus on low count, fast combat and don't care about real objective squad play. Personally, Aces High isn't even that good, and is probably far more prone to math than game skills determined outcomes. It's stupid to say "there was Aces High and Epic games at xyz event". Because there actually were "Two Epic scenarios to play at xyz event."

Sorry that you came to my Ted talk lol