OK, sorry for the dumb question, I'm curious as to the timing of when Bane Tokens are placed if "I make the Rules Now" is divulged. Are they placed at the beginning of the "Deploy Units" step, or when Cad Bane would deploy?

Locally, we've played it that they are placed when he would be deployed, and it's incredibly powerful. Almost always, it means that the Bane tokens are set up immediately in front of units (or, if they have scout, possibly among them already). The results of last night's game makes me wonder if we're doing it wrong.

If you could show me where in the RRG it gives the answer to this one way or the other, that would be appreciated.

2 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

OK, sorry for the dumb question, I'm curious as to the timing of when Bane Tokens are placed if "I make the Rules Now" is divulged. Are they placed at the beginning of the "Deploy Units" step, or when Cad Bane would deploy?

Locally, we've played it that they are placed when he would be deployed, and it's incredibly powerful. Almost always, it means that the Bane tokens are set up immediately in front of units (or, if they have scout, possibly among them already). The results of last night's game makes me wonder if we're doing it wrong.

If you could show me where in the RRG it gives the answer to this one way or the other, that would be appreciated.

It's at the start of the Deploy Units Phase.

"Some command cards have the divulge keyword. These cards can be revealed at the start of the Phase or step stated after the divulge keyword on the command card."
"If a card is divulged in this manner, resolve the text that follows the divulge keyword."

This are the rules on the RRG under Divulge. It says that to divulge you must reveal the card at the start of the corresponding phase and then it says that if it was divulged, you resolve that text. There's nothing in my opinion that indicates that the effect should be resolved at a different time than when the card is divulged.

1 minute ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

It's at the start of the Deploy Units Phase.

"Some command cards have the divulge keyword. These cards can be revealed at the start of the Phase or step stated after the divulge keyword on the command card."
"If a card is divulged in this manner, resolve the text that follows the divulge keyword."

This are the rules on the RRG under Divulge. It says that to divulge you must reveal the card at the start of the corresponding phase and then it says that if it was divulged, you resolve that text. There's nothing in my opinion that indicates that the effect should be resolved at a different time than when the card is divulged.

Thanks. I read that, but just as you said there is nothing that indicates there is nothing to indicate a different time, there is also nothing to indicate a specific timing to me other than during the step. Aka, "At the Start" or something along those lines.

I guess I'm just hoping for a more positive ruling so I can bring it to the local group and show them "yeah, we've been playing this wrong" and there is no room to argue.

To me, the RRG says to divulge at the beginning of the specified phase and then resolve it at that time, not "resolve at any point during that phase." As another time isn't specified for resolving, and every other effect in this game that I can think of is resolved at time of trigger, the tokens should be placed at the beginning of the deploy units step. But I understand how that won't be good enough for all players in a local group.

So I think your best bet is to use the rules question link, and then you'll (potentially) have an email from Alex Davy as to the timing. https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

3 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

So I think your best bet is to use the rules question link, and then you'll (potentially) have an email from Alex Davy as to the timing. https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

Done. We'll see if I get an answer. (if my luck from last night continues, I won't)

19 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Thanks. I read that, but just as you said there is nothing that indicates there is nothing to indicate a different time, there is also nothing to indicate a specific timing to me other than during the step. Aka, "At the Start" or something along those lines.

I guess I'm just hoping for a more positive ruling so I can bring it to the local group and show them "yeah, we've been playing this wrong" and there is no room to argue.

The thing is that by that rule it's completely clear that you should Divulge at the start of the deploy units step (in this example) and the rule says that when a card is divulged you resolve the effect. I just don't see how someone can argue that you don't resolve the effect right away as there is no other timing indicated by the rules or the card.

44 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

The thing is that by that rule it's completely clear that you should Divulge at the start of the deploy units step (in this example) and the rule says that when a card is divulged you resolve the effect. I just don't see how someone can argue that you don't resolve the effect right away as there is no other timing indicated by the rules or the card.

Well, that's the argument though, it doesn't specify the a timing, so it just has to be resolved at some point during that phase. I've encountered people who interpret rules in the best way possible for them, so if they see wiggle room in the rules for an advantage, they'll take it and then only give up the advantage when faced with an FAQ or errata.

So to quote the rules again:

"Some command cards have the divulge keyword. These cards can be revealed at the start of the Phase or step stated after the divulge keyword on the command card."

"If a card is divulged in this manner, resolve the text that follows the divulge keyword."

So the basic structure of a command card with divulge is:

Divulge: Timing: Effect

If you choose to divulge you must to do it at the start of the phase, in Bane's case the timing is the deployment phase so this is before any other units are deployed at the beginning of the deployment phase.

When you divulge the command card you must resolve its effects immediately, just like any other trigger effect, in Banes case this means placing his 3 markers on the battlefield before any units are deployed.

If this were not the case it would allow you to place the kaboom token within range of any unit that scouted and immediately resolve the explosion effect, clearly not at all what is intended.

Well it says can be revealed at the start of the turn not must be revealed. I sure its meant to be at the start but it doesn't, I guess we have to wait for Novembers rrg update to see if they sort it out

2 hours ago, Steelgolem said:

Well it says can be revealed at the start of the turn not must be revealed. I sure its meant to be at the start but it doesn't, I guess we have to wait for Novembers rrg update to see if they sort it out

Yep, exactly. It likely should be resolved at the start, but it never says immediately, nor "at the start." It gives a timing window that is an entire step long, which leaves room for interpretation.

I think I've got the local group convinced of this, but hopefully Steelgolem is right, and they'll throw in the missing "immediately" or "at the start" in the next RRG so there is no room for interpretation.

I'm sorry, but I still can't fully understand the arguments for another timing than "At the start of the Deploy Units Step".

I'll try to explain my point in another way.

Question: When is the divulge effect of "I make the rules now" resolved?
Answer (with an exact quote of the RRG): "If a card is divulged in this manner, resolve the text that follows the divulge keyword."

Question: OK, but when it is "divulged in this manner"?
Answer (with an exact quote of the RRG): "Some command cards have the divulge keyword. These cards can be revealed at the start of the Phase or step stated after the divulge keyword on the command card."

So, if you want to use the divulge effect of I make the rules now, you should divulge the card at the start of the deploy units step and if you do, you resolve its effect.

In other words, the only timing we are given is "at the start of the Phase or step stated after the divulge keyword", in this case "at the start of the deploy units step" so why think that the resolution of the effect should have another timing when neither the RRG nor the command card specify other?

Personally I think the best way to resolve this once and for all is to add a new step to Setup: Divulge and resolve. Then there is zero chance someone can make any sort of claims otherwise.

It is a little noteworthy that Charge and Relentless allow for other things to occur between the trigger and the resolution, even if those things are only resolving other triggers.

To be clear, I agree that it should be resolved immediately after divulging, but I also have encountered plenty of people who interpret rules differently which seem clear to me (like Line of Sight).

I really don’t see how there is any ambiguity, Lemmiwinks has spelled it all out above in crystal clear detail.

If you chose to divulge, you must divulge at the start of the step that the card states and the card text must be resolved right then and there.

7 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

I really don’t see how there is any ambiguity, Lemmiwinks has spelled it all out above in crystal clear detail.

If you chose to divulge, you must divulge at the start of the step that the card states and the card text must be resolved right then and there.

Where does it say that it MUST be resolved right then? It says it must be resolved yes, but does not in plain text say "immediately." I agree this is the right way to play it, but the text does not specify the timing, nor do the FAQ so I see how someone is (incorrectly) arguing they can resolve it after deployment.

41 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Where does it say that it MUST be resolved right then? It says it must be resolved yes, but does not in plain text say "immediately." I agree this is the right way to play it, but the text does not specify the timing, nor do the FAQ so I see how someone is (incorrectly) arguing they can resolve it after deployment.

Where in the rules does it say, when you take an action, you have to "immediately" resolve the effect?

For me that's a clear case of intentionally reading the rules wrong.

6 minutes ago, SailorMeni said:

Where in the rules does it say, when you take an action, you have to "immediately" resolve the effect?

For me that's a clear case of intentionally reading the rules wrong.

I don't disagree at all.
And in fact unless I missed something it doesn't even specify you have to fully resolve an action before taking a second one, which would allow for another action to to interrupt resolving the effect. I don't see anything explicitly stated in the rules that would prevent a player from taking the Aim action in the middle of resolving an Attack action... I think the intention is quite clear, but I can't find wording specifying this, which would allow some pedantic WAAC players to make the game miserable for other players (I have actually played against such a person and seen them single-handedly destroy a gaming group because they showed up every week and no one wanted to play them, so rather than deal with him, people stopped showing up).

So while I agree that such a specification isn't required for the majority of players, having it in writing doesn't hurt anyone and helps prevent intentional misreading of the rules.

The problem is, when some people intentionally read the rules wrong they have to be shown incontrovertible proof that they are incorrect before they will concede the point. And even then it's not certain that they'll accept they are wrong.

@Caimheul1313 that sounds terrible. but I fear toxic players will always find ways to make the game miserable. Adding clarifications to clear rules would blow up the rules even more and might scare off other people.

When in doubt I'll always side with community rulings. I post them in discourd where the judges of the large tournaments with direct connection to the devs hang out. Even if I personally disagree with a call, I'll always play it that way because that is very likely the way it would be ruled on a tournament.

@SailorMeni In each case, the clarification only needs to be a single sentence, specifying that you cannot take another action before completing the first, or that the Divulged card must be resolved prior to moving on. Other clarifications sometimes just require using a single additional word, or different words.

We also have situations where the rules aren't clear, such as whether the Medic model is needed to use Treat. We know from communications with Alex Davy that this is the intent, but there is nothing in the rules indicating the model is necessary to use the card. The rules make it seem like the unit has access to all upgrades regardless of attached models. Add in that for a couple of rules iterations C3-P0 could not be returned to R2's unit using Repair, and even now the printed rules don't match the way Repair 2 was explained to me by Alex Davy in an email for restoring C3-P0 to the unit. According to the email, C3-P0 would come back with 2 wounds remaining. Now, maybe that was changed subsequently for balance reasons, but it's hard to tell that without reaching out repeatedly since the rules remain unclear. These rules also involve reading the Wounds section to know that you use the wounds of the upgrade card if they differ, rather than the wound threshold of the unit. Changing the last sentence to "Then, give that mini a number of wound tokens equal to one less than the wound threshold of the mini" to me would be more clear, without making the rules any longer.

Relying on community sources such as discord is not always possible in the middle of a game, and the further issue is that then we can have situations where different tournaments use different interpretations depending on the judges/organizers.

16 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Where does it say that it MUST be resolved right then? It says it must be resolved yes, but does not in plain text say "immediately." I agree this is the right way to play it, but the text does not specify the timing, nor do the FAQ so I see how someone is (incorrectly) arguing they can resolve it after deployment.

So these players that you play with, do they also argue that you can trigger Relentless or Steady but wait till later in the turn when an opposing unit moves into range for them to be able to resolve it? Because that’s what you are arguing right now. For reference neither Relentless or Steady in the RRG specifically state that the ability must be resolved immediately either, that’s just the way it works.

Divulge is a time specific triggered effect, at the start of deployment it triggers and you get to decide if you want to resolve it or not. If you chose to resolve it just like Relentless or Steady you must resolve the effect straight away.

1 hour ago, Mace Windu said:

So these players that you play with, do they also argue that you can trigger Relentless or Steady but wait till later in the turn when an opposing unit moves into range for them to be able to resolve it? Because that’s what you are arguing right now. For reference neither Relentless or Steady in the RRG specifically state that the ability must be resolved immediately either, that’s just the way it works.

Divulge is a time specific triggered effect, at the start of deployment it triggers and you get to decide if you want to resolve it or not. If you chose to resolve it just like Relentless or Steady you must resolve the effect straight away.

Relentless and Steady actually specifically do not need to be "resolved immediately" as they can be interrupted by Standby tokens, or activation of the Detonate keyword. As well, Standby and Steady provide free actions which by the rules on page 44 can only be resolved during the unit's activation. We also are specifically told on page 45 the following: "Free card actions can be performed only when a unit could normally perform an action, they cannot be used between a game effect and an ability that is triggered by that game effect. For example, if Darth Vader performs a move action, he cannot then use the free card action on his equipped Force Push upgrade card before triggering his relentless ability. He must either use the free card action before moving or after the relentless ability resolves. "
So no, the comparison doesn't hold here. We are actually told information indirectly about how and when to resolve Standby and Relentless. Additionally, these are triggered keywords that provide a free action, which is why we have the information about resolution, so this isn't a direct comparison to Divulge, which doesn't have the same effect.

No such information is provided for Divulge, even indirectly in the text of the rules. Divulging is triggered, the resolution is not. If I Divulge Padme's card do I HAVE to deploy her right away? If I don't, then I'm not fully "resolving" the text that follows Divulge until she deploys, the effect of the card stays active for the entirety of the Deploy units step. Similarly, it could be viewed that deploying the Bane tokens takes the place of deploying the Bane model at some point in the Deployment step.
Using information I have from playing other games tells me this is unlikely to be the correct interpretation, but not everyone has a similar level of experience in reading game rules (and seeing games FAQed for clarity) so not everyone might read the rules in this way.

22 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

If I Divulge Padme's card do I HAVE to deploy her right away? If I don't, then I'm not fully "resolving" the text that follows Divulge until she deploys, the effect of the card stays active for the entirety of the Deploy units step.

The difference between Padme's and Bane's is that in Diplomatic Cover you are given explicitly another timing: "when she is deployed". In I make the rules now there is no other timing specified, so I see no valid argument for inventing a timing and not using the start of the step when the card is divulged.

8 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

The difference between Padme's and Bane's is that in Diplomatic Cover you are given explicitly another timing: "when she is deployed". In I make the rules now there is no other timing specified, so I see no valid argument for inventing a timing and not using the start of the step when the card is divulged.

How is "immediately" not an equally invented timing using only the written text of the rules?
"When she is deployed" does not innately mean you are not supposed to deploy Padme first.

4 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

How is "immediately" not an equally invented timing using only the written text of the rules?
"When she is deployed" does not innately mean you are not supposed to deploy Padme first.

So based on what your saying, if I am red player and I dilvuge Padme’s 3 pip card I am now forced to deploy Padme first, before any other unit?

1 minute ago, Shadowhawk252 said:

So based on what your saying, if I am red player and I dilvuge Padme’s 3 pip card I am now forced to deploy Padme first, before any other unit?

I'm saying it is a possible interpertion of "you must resolve all parts of Divulge immediately."

I don't think that is actually how it should be played though.

37 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

How is "immediately" not an equally invented timing using only the written text of the rules?

Because of this rules:

"Some command cards have the divulge keyword. These cards can be revealed at the start of the Phase or step stated after the divulge keyword on the command card."
" If a card is divulged in this manner, resolve the text that follows the divulge keyword."

Sure, it never explicitly say that it's resolved immediately, but in my opinion to argue that it's not resolved when the card is revealed/divulged, even if the card has no explicit timing is a far reach when the rule says that if you divulge the card you resolve its effect. I wouldn't be confortable playing with someone that can look into those extremely tiny gaps in the rules.