10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Absolutely not . If a GM tried to pull that, I would walk. Period. If the buyer cannot afford a purchase after negotiations, then the negotiations simply break down and no sale occurs.

I might not walk out, but I'd definitely be a very upset fighter plane. I agree with Tramp, that's not a good way to handle things at all.

25 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Absolutely not . If a GM tried to pull that, I would walk. Period. If the buyer cannot afford a purchase after negotiations, then the negotiations simply break down and no sale occurs.

Then, for everyone's sake, I think it best if we don't play in each other's games.

And I, slightly, resent the idea that it would be "pulling" something. I am very clear to my players that this is how this interaction works in my game.

22 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Does it apply to other things? Do the rules for plotting an Astrogation check apply to uses of the Brawl skill? It's just the way those checks are. There may be some checks that operate similarly, but this isn't a "general principle," just the way Negotiation works.

This isn't a "give the players a freebie." If you've been paying attention to what we've been saying, this isn't a "roll until you get it" or "let's drag out shopping" thing. They get one chance to find an item/buyer at a given time and place. If they fail, they have to try again somewhere else or at another time. If they succeed and don't like the price, they can choose to pass (aka, turn the roll into a failure) by walking away, and take whatever narrative effects come their way for choosing not to buy/sell the item or stemming from Threat/Despair.

I doubt no one's sincerity, and so I am sure that you don't look at it as a "freebie" to the players, or "roll until you get it". But I 1000% do. I also, quite sincerely, would detest this as a player. The last thing I want as a player is things being handed to me on a platter, and my view is that your way is just handing the player credits.

We shall just have to agree to disagree. I have very much enjoyed the discussion. But I feel it has devolved, and that there is, unfortunately, no use in continuing the discussion.

Here’s the other problem with your view. It doesn’t fly with how we see Negotiations work even within the canon. In TPM, for instance, Qui Gon tries to negotiate with Watto for parts to fix their ship. His negotiation check fails because all he has is Republic credits, he walks away from the negotiations. The failed negotiation results in no sale . It isn’t until he finds another means of payment (the winnings from the pod race). A no sale is always a possible outcome of a negotiation, and should always be one.

You might as well say, that Qui-Gon had no applicable goods to trade (wrong currency) in the first place. That is why no negotiation check was made at all.

If one side has nothing to trade, then there are no negotiations.

That scene goold be interpreted in hundreds of different ways...

1 hour ago, Rogues Rule said:

You might as well say, that Qui-Gon had no applicable goods to trade (wrong currency) in the first place. That is why no negotiation check was made at all.

If one side has nothing to trade, then there are no negotiations.

That scene goold be interpreted in hundreds of different ways...

I disagree. Based upon the conversation, they were negotiating. If anything, I’d say is not only failed the negotiation check, but rolled at least a couple of Threats .

I'd say he rolled a Negotiation check to find a hyperdrive, but the GM flipped a DP and he rolled a Despair. So Watto will only accept money that Qui-Gon doesn't have. Qui-Gon then tried to use Influence and failed, so they then had to make another Negotiation check to find a different solution.

11 hours ago, RickInVA said:

Then, for everyone's sake, I think it best if we don't play in each other's games.

And I, slightly, resent the idea that it would be "pulling" something. I am very clear to my players that this is how this interaction works in my game.

Most Force powers are less powerful than your version of Negotiation.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I'd say he rolled a Negotiation check to find a hyperdrive, but the GM flipped a DP and he rolled a Despair. So Watto will only accept money that Qui-Gon doesn't have. Qui-Gon then tried to use Influence and failed, so they then had to make another Negotiation check to find a different solution.

Exactly.

12 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Here’s the other problem with your view. It doesn’t fly with how we see Negotiations work even within the canon. In TPM, for instance, Qui Gon tries to negotiate with Watto for parts to fix their ship. His negotiation check fails because all he has is Republic credits, he walks away from the negotiations. The failed negotiation results in no sale . It isn’t until he finds another means of payment (the winnings from the pod race). A no sale is always a possible outcome of a negotiation, and should always be one.

To Agree with Rogues Rule, the only part of Negotiation was in finding the part (which I will point out the rules say there are other skills that can be used in its stead for that purpose). Watto asks "how are you going to pay for this". This is not Negotiation, nothing has been negotiated yet. It is a seller looking to be sure that the buyer can perform on the contract once they have the negotiation on the price. Do you really think people can negotiate a price when they don't even agree on what currency to use? Is that how it works in your game? After you agree on "2000" then you bring up "oh, by the way, that's 2000 grains of rice, not credits."?

18 hours ago, Daeglan said:

yeah no. If their goal is to find out what they can get the GM doesnt get to read more into it than that. sorry. If they do they are being a jerk.

Yeah yeah. You're missing all the drama, which is the point of roleplaying. You can't tell me trying to unload a special item with possible story effects is "just a roll with no consequences". If you're doing that then...OMG, yawn-fest. If the player expects that, they are being a jerk. Or a baby. Or both.

On the other hand, if the player is just interested in seeing what the best deal is on nerf-jerky, then, sure, I'd be a jerk to read more into it.

See, I'm Negotiating...

12 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

His negotiation check fails because all he has is Republic credits, he walks away from the negotiations.

That's not what happened. He had no way to pay, and nothing else to offer, end of story. If anyone "walked" it was Watto, who probably knew someone who might be interested in converting credits, but it was probably too much hassle.

5 hours ago, Rogues Rule said:

You might as well say, that Qui-Gon had no applicable goods to trade (wrong currency) in the first place. That is why no negotiation check was made at all.

It's even worse than that: Qui-Gon spilled exactly how many Republic credits he had from the get go. That's a terrible negotiation tactic...

It seems to me that the non-binders are applying a double standard: one way of handling a skill check for Negotiation, another for all other skills.

The core rules are thing of beauty, how they scale, how the narrative axes work, how the skills are paired with attributes. Each roll has meaning. I have not had to crack the rule book for years, because it's so simple to apply the skill roll results, both success and narrative, in a consistent and scaleable manner.

So I really don't get why you'd do it differently for one skill over another. It's arbitrary and inconsistent, it sucks the meaning out of rolling, and there's just no point.

7 minutes ago, whafrog said:

So I really don't get why you'd do it differently for one skill over another. It's arbitrary and inconsistent, it sucks the meaning out of rolling, and there's just no point.

Different skills and uses of skills operate differently. You don't handle Astrogation and Brawl checks the same way.

I really do not understand what the disconnect is here. It doesn't take the meaning out of rolling, or relieve the acting character of consequences, or allow them to just reroll until they get what they want.

1 hour ago, RickInVA said:

To Agree with Rogues Rule, the only part of Negotiation was in finding the part (which I will point out the rules say there are other skills that can be used in its stead for that purpose). Watto asks "how are you going to pay for this". This is not Negotiation, nothing has been negotiated yet. It is a seller looking to be sure that the buyer can perform on the contract once they have the negotiation on the price. Do you really think people can negotiate a price when they don't even agree on what currency to use? Is that how it works in your game? After you agree on "2000" then you bring up "oh, by the way, that's 2000 grains of rice, not credits."?

As far as Qui Gon knew, Republic credits were the universal currency across the galaxy. That’s what they’re supposed to be. So the question of what kind of currency he was going to use never crossed his mind. The only question was how much would it cost. The fact that Watto wouldn’t accept Republic money is where the Threat/Despair on Qui Gon’s Negotiation roll comes in.

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

That's not what happened. He had no way to pay, and nothing else to offer, end of story. If anyone "walked" it was Watto, who probably knew someone who might be interested in converting credits, but it was probably too much hassle.

Yes, Qui Gon did walk away. It was Watto’s shop, he didn’t go anywhere. Qui Gon was forced to leave empty handed.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As far as Qui Gon knew, Republic credits were the universal currency across the galaxy. That’s what they’re supposed to be. So the question of what kind of currency he was going to use never crossed his mind. The only question was how much would it cost. The fact that Watto wouldn’t accept Republic money is where the Threat/Despair on Qui Gon’s Negotiation roll comes in.

That is not an unreasonable view of the circumstances. It is also not unreasonable to feel otherwise. This is the Outer Rim, far from the Republic Core. I'm not steeped in Republic Lore, but I recall Qui Gon talking about the Republic not having control out here. He is well traveled also. I'm quite sure (albeit with no evidence, but that makes us even) that he has encountered situations before where Republic Credits have no value. My point is that they were first discussing "what method of payment" and had not gotten to "how much", and so, to me, the Negotiation had not started. I respect that you disagree, but my position has not changed.

13 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As far as Qui Gon knew, Republic credits were the universal currency across the galaxy. That’s what they’re supposed to be. So the question of what kind of currency he was going to use never crossed his mind. The only question was how much would it cost. The fact that Watto wouldn’t accept Republic money is where the Threat/Despair on Qui Gon’s Negotiation roll comes in.

Yes, Qui Gon did walk away. It was Watto’s shop, he didn’t go anywhere. Qui Gon was forced to leave empty handed.

it is clear Quigon knew republic credits were not taken everywhere. He is not that naive. Hence why he tried to use influence in Watto to accomplish his goal

I'm not sure the Negotiation skill was even used at all in that encounter.

I'm sure Qui-Gon's initial plan was along the lines of asking Watto what he wanted for the hyperdrive, and then just pay that amount. And when Watto turned out to be difficult about it, Qui-gon went straight to various kinds of Charm, Deception, and Skulduggery.

16 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Here’s the other problem with your view. It doesn’t fly with how we see Negotiations work even within the canon. In TPM, for instance, Qui Gon tries to negotiate with Watto for parts to fix their ship. His negotiation check fails because all he has is Republic credits, he walks away from the negotiations. The failed negotiation results in no sale . It isn’t until he finds another means of payment (the winnings from the pod race). A no sale is always a possible outcome of a negotiation, and should always be one.

That was exactly what i was trying to say. Also Luke selling his speeder. We have examples of both kind of deals with different results. I don't get why can't both situation coexist. There are some deals you can walk away from and sometimes you don't have time/opportunity to look for other so you take it however bad it is. 2 different situation, both legit.

2 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

I'm not sure the Negotiation skill was even used at all in that encounter.

I'm sure Qui-Gon's initial plan was along the lines of asking Watto what he wanted for the hyperdrive, and then just pay that amount. And when Watto turned out to be difficult about it, Qui-gon went straight to various kinds of Charm, Deception, and Skulduggery.

He went straight to using the force to kind of make watto take credits

5 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Different skills and uses of skills operate differently. You don't handle Astrogation and Brawl checks the same way.

Yes, you do. The details differ, but the overall framework is the same.

1 minute ago, whafrog said:

Yes, you do. The details differ, but the overall framework is the same.

The details differ between those two and Negotiation, but the overall framework is still the same. It is not a departure from RAW at all. Before you say I'm breaking with RAW, I'm going to need you to make a positive case for why being bound to purchase something you roll to find is RAW.

2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The details differ between those two and Negotiation, but the overall framework is still the same.

The skill results and scaling are intricately tied together. Easy case: 1 Threat can be applied as 1 Strain, whether it comes from Brawling or Negotiation. That's a fixed tangible amount in the game system that applies to all skill checks. So whether the PC sells or they walk away that threat still applies.

7 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I'm going to need you to make a positive case for why being bound to purchase something you roll to find is RAW.

I have not been trying to make a positive case for being bound to purchase anything. All I said in my very first post is that there have to be consequences , that's all. Your response was basically "sure, but the consequence is they don't get to make the deal". That's not a consequence at all. Not making a deal could save the PC from the results of a very bad roll, and more importantly have zero story impact. That's total BS, and I'm willing to bet there is no other skill where you'd let that resolve in that fashion.

The logic chain for me is really simple: rolls should happen where there is something of consequence to roll about -> the consequence of the roll stands regardless of what the player does next.

19 minutes ago, whafrog said:

Not making a deal could save the PC from the results of a very bad roll, and more importantly have zero story impact. That's total BS, and I'm willing to bet there is no other skill where you'd let that resolve in that fashion.

The logic chain for me is really simple: rolls should happen where there is something of consequence to roll about -> the consequence of the roll stands regardless of what the player does next.

The lesson here is: when selling priceless artifacts, do not ever negotiate. Just set your price, take it or leave it.

But I'm confused about what you are trying to say. You are saying you are not agueing in favor of players being bound to purchase/sell after a terrible Negotiate roll, but are at the same time not allowed to walk away from the deal.