10 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Padme is a clone?

Twist!

Padme is a unit that proves surge tokens are not always worse than native surge.

Because she can do things with her surge tokens that she cant do with her native surge. Like share them with clone units.

2 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Padme is a unit that proves surge tokens are not always better than native surge.

Because she can do things with her surge tokens that she cant do with her native surge. Like share them with clone units.

I agree with you entirely. She does prove that surge tokens are not better than native surge.

You've finally switched sides!

9 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Except that Rebel Veterans exist. They roll black dice and surge to hit.

Rebel veterans also pay extra points for that. Cost differential was already listed as a disadvantage of having native surge over not having native surge.

But youll never see a stormtrooper or rebel trooper unit that has a black die and native surge that costs the same exact points.

Just like with the scout trooper example, if you gave scout troopers native surge, they would either have to cost more or have their dice downgraded to a black and a white or two white.

Cost is a downside.

6 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I agree with you entirely. She does prove that surge tokens are not better than native surge.

You've finally switched sides!

that was a typo i havent switched sides

padme can share her surge tokens but cant share her native surge

that gives her surge tokens flexibility her native surge doesnt have

so how can you continue to argue that native surge is always better when its clearly not?

2 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Rebel veterans also pay extra points for that. Cost differential was already listed as a disadvantage of having native surge over not having native surge.

But youll never see a stormtrooper or rebel trooper unit that has a black die and native surge that costs the same exact points.

For someone who keeps talking about the cost difference for this ability or that ability, can you show use a point breakdown to support that assumption?

1 minute ago, Shadowhawk252 said:

For someone who keeps talking about the cost difference for this ability or that ability, can you show use a point breakdown to support that assumption?

you honestly think units are getting native surge for free?

6 minutes ago, Khobai said:

you honestly think units are getting native surge for free?

They might, with stormtroopers at 40 points, 4 units, surge to hit with white dice, red defense die and precise 1, vs b1 at 36 points, 6 units, white attack die, white defense die, ai attack, coordinate droid trooper. How much of those 40 points is for the surge to hit?

you can’t answer that, so your making an assumption. We don’t know what the point breakdown of a unit is.

Best case scenario, stormtroopers roll 9 dice with a full unit and an RT-97. So thats effectively a +1 to hit on 9 dice. So the surge to hit gives them a little over one extra hit on average.

Thats worth a little more than an aim token. Although the value of native surge goes down as the unit suffers casualties. If I had to guess offensive surge on stormtroopers is worth 5-7 points.

Which is why the T-21 is overcosted because it renders the stormtrooper's native surge to hit largely obsolete. So the T-21 should probably be the cheapest heavy weapon option rather than the most expensive. Especially since its only range 3.

2 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Best case scenario, stormtroopers roll 9 dice with a full unit and an RT-97. So thats effectively a +1 to hit on 9 dice. So the surge to hit gives them a little over one extra hit on average.

Thats worth a little more than an aim token each turn. So if I had to guess the offensive surge is worth 5-7 points.

Right there; So if I had to guess the offensive surge is worth 5-7 points.

And you’re assuming they weighed precise 1 less. Maybe it cost more. Maybe units have 10 free points to work with from the start? Did they weigh in the heavy weapons when design the stormtroopers, or did they base the cost of the heavy weapons in the already made stormtroopers? At the end of the day we don’t know, and at best your making assumptions on what YOU want the answer to be to prove yourself right.

Regardless of what I think offensive surge costs...

I think we can all agree it costs something because if it cost nothing every unit would have native surge. So native surge has a cost and that cost should be more than the cost of reliable 1.

In the case of ISF that have both native surge and reliable 1 I firmly believe they are unfairly paying full price for both. Which is one reason ISF feel so overcosted. The value of reliable 1 goes down considerably if you cant use the surge token to surge offensively. ISF mostly just waste their surge token which is stupid. because the odds of them surging on a defense roll every turn are not very good.

ISF also have the T-21 problem. ISF are overpaying for their T-21 with crit 2 that makes their native surge obsolete anyway. So theyre paying for a native surge and a surge token they cant really even use. lol. The unit is so badly designed its funny.

ISF are very much a unit that gets screwed by having native offensive surge. So I dont see how you can say native surge is always better. All it does is make ISF overcosted. ISF need to come down in cost by at least 10-12 points to be a favorable alternative to deathtroopers.

32 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Regardless of what I think offensive surge costs...

I think we can all agree it costs something because if it cost nothing every unit would have native surge. So native surge has a cost and that cost should be more than the cost of reliable 1.

In the case of ISF that have both native surge and reliable 1 I firmly believe they are unfairly paying full price for both. Which is why ISF feel so overcosted. The value of reliable 1 goes down considerably if you cant use the surge token to surge offensively. ISF mostly just waste their surge token which is stupid. because the odds of them surging on a defense roll every turn are not very good.

ISF also have the T-21 problem. ISF are also overpaying for their T-21 that makes their native surge obsolete.

ISF are very much a unit that gets screwed by having native surge.

So no one looses this, you are more likely t surge on defense per die than on offense. It’s a 1/6 on defense vs 1/8 on offense.

All this just because you don’t like not being able to use a surge token. How you feel, what you think should be, that’s your opinion. And until you can actually back that opinion up with some hard data, it’s about as valuable as the gum on the bottom of my shoe. You want to argue how they are over costed, give us a point breakdown. You want to argue that they don’t work well with empire, give us a win/loss ratio with and without them over a period of time or through various tournaments. At the end of the day, this is a game. And since I don’t think you have had a single positive thing to say about it, maybe you should find something else, but you know that is my opinion.

Quote

So no one looses this, you are more likely t surge on defense per die than on offense. It’s a 1/6 on defense vs 1/8 on offense.

You are more likely to be able to spend a surge token if you can spend it on both offense and defense.

Thats why ISF having offensive surge is such a downside. Because they lose an opportunity to spend their surge token.

Quote

All this just because you don’t like not being able to use a surge token.

I dont like paying points for a surge token i cant use.

And no it was also about disproving your blanket statement that native surge is always better than surge tokens. it isnt. especially not on ISF.

And I did back up my opinion with facts. Youre the one that hasnt produced any facts other than repeating the same incorrect statement over and over.

No offence Khobai but after few days reading this forum. Where youre post appear very often in interesting topics you be a guy who get so hyped and invest to Empire so much and immediately regret this decision when clone come out because they looks more better for yours POV, tactics, strategy, whatever you got in head.

I start from clones, but after some time I love empire too and this is my next buy choose becuase i like idea of mixing "standy by Deathtrooper````s" and "where I hit you and how hard - ISF" and youre half actions be mine cause suppresion.

Calm little bit, take breath and start thing how to beat clones with empire, or just start playing/collecting GAR. Relax we here mostly to get fun and joy from our hobby. Not to show others "you little crapheads my grass is greener that yours" in the accompaniment....

@Khobai please, please just stop. I see you in so many of these forums and you do nothing but argue and whine. Either state your problem using constructive criticism and move on, or just don't play this game. No one likes a stubborn whiner who can't possibly see anyone elses point despite multiple people showing clear reasons for their opinions. You are hypocritical, and base alot of your "facts" on conjecture and your own personal opinions, not actual facts. And when you do state a real fact, people try to talk to you critically about how they think differently, but you tend to either ignore that or restate a previous opinion as fact. Just take a step back, calm down. And please, try to see the fun in this game. Most if not everyone in these forums plays this game and has fun doing it. If you're not, try to ask others in these forums what to do to change that. The person above me has some great pointers on how to better enjoy the game based on how you present your play style. This community should be friendly, fun, and welcoming. When we do talk about constructive criticism, which I highly encourage, about the game those same values should apply. Don't be the person that ruins every forum with your negativity and your inability to see a person's different point of view.

5 hours ago, Khobai said:

You are more likely to be able to spend a surge token if you can spend it on both offense and defense.

Thats why ISF having offensive surge is such a downside. Because they lose an opportunity to spend their surge token.

I dont like paying points for a surge token i cant use.

And no it was also about disproving your blanket statement that native surge is always better than surge tokens. it isnt. especially not on ISF.

And I did back up my opinion with facts. Youre the one that hasnt produced any facts other than repeating the same incorrect statement over and over.

Ok @Khobai , challenge accepted.

Fact:

6 hours ago, Shadowhawk252 said:

You are more likely to surge on defense per die than on offense. It’s a 1/6 on defense vs 1/8 on offense.

This is a true statement, and yes your absolutely right if you can roll both d8s and d6s you are even more likely to get a surge. It doesn't disprove my statement.

Fact:
A white w/ surge is better than a white die w/o surge.

A black die without surge is better than a white die w/ surge.

A black die w/ surge is better than a black die w/o surge.

A red die w/o surge is better than a black die w/ surge.

A red w/ surge is better than a red die w/o surge.

This is a true statement based on the statistical breakdown of the dice.

Fact:
So to make this clear, when talking about the same color dice, native surge is superior to a die without surge. When talking about different color dice, it’s irrelevant
Now as for the stormtrooper unit with T-21, the only scenario that the crit 2 is better is the T-21 is still alive and the attack roll has 2 or less surges. If you have rolled more than 2 surges (unlikely with a 1/8 chance per die but still possible) or the T-21 has been killed (via force choke or los sniping, a common tactic used since day 1 of the game) then the storm troopers having a natural surge is better

This is the 3 possible scenarios you can have while attacking with a unit of stormtroopers that took the t-21 heavy weapon upgrade. The probability of rolling more surges than your critical 2 increases further if you give them an aim token, utilizing their only ability on their card.

Fact:

You have spent 10-20 points in upgrades that you had to get either from the upgrade card pack or from other faction's expansions to even have access to, to give surge tokens to your units.

This is also a true statement. The empire has not gotten force guidance or aggressive tactics in any of their expansions.

Fact:

A surge token can only be used once then it is spent and gone, a natural surge is constantly available. A surge token can only convert 1 surge per token to a hit or block. Any surges beyond the number of tokens is lost. With a natural surge, the number of times you can use it is equal to the number of surge results that you rolled. There is no upper cap.

A conclusion based on the previous fact: A surge token is only as good as a natural surge if your roll is equal to or less than the number of surge tokens you have available. Outside of this singular scenario surge tokens are inferior to a natural surge when it comes to cause and effect of dice rolling.

Well here are several facts, (hard, provable data points) and 1 conclusion that I have used to argue your against your points.

Please present your facts, not your opinions, not your conjectures, but hard provable data that supports your arguments.

Since this thread is so off topic as to be laughable, I just wanted to point out that this is like the third thread in a row to be filled with people arguing with a single user, with no progress being made in convincing him of much of anything. Since he clearly doesn't understand the difference between facts and opinions (at least his own opinions) I seriously urge all of you to consider putting him on your ignore list. If you like talking at walls, with nothing really gained by the process, go right ahead and knock yourself out. Just know that the pointless yelling is making up the majority of new posts right now.

EDIT: Third thread in a row I've read TODAY. If we add up everything he has derailed, it's probably pretty **** sad.

Most of what Ive said IS a fact though. Its mostly just GAR players being in denial about their faction's game mechanics being broken that argue with me all the time.

Ill be vindicated once GAR gets nerfed

GAR has made a game I once had fun playing absolutely miserable to play. So once they get nerfed I can try to have a positive outlook on the game again.

Quote

Now as for the stormtrooper unit with T-21, the only scenario that the crit 2 is better is the T-21 is still alive and the attack roll has 2 or less surges. If you have rolled more than 2 surges (unlikely with a 1/8 chance per die but still possible) or the T-21 has been killed (via force choke or los sniping, a common tactic used since day 1 of the game) then the storm troopers having a natural surge is better

The scenario where the T-21 is alive and the attack roll has 2 or less surges is the most common scenario though. In most cases the T-21 will die second to last and the odds of rolling more than 2 surges are exceedingly low.

Also force choke and los sniping are not "common". choke isnt even in the majority of games. and los sniping is pretty uncommon so long as you dont screw up the placement of your heavy weapons.

Quote

This is also a true statement. The empire has not gotten force guidance or aggressive tactics in any of their expansions.

A lot of units dont come with the upgrade cards that people use on those units.

Just because palpatine doesnt come with aggressive tactics or force guidance doesnt mean you cant put aggressive tactics or force guidance on palpatine.

nor does it exclude the possibility that empire will get a commander with aggressive tactics or force guidance or more models that make use of surge tokens in the future.

the surge token mechanic is fairly new it will take time for imperials and rebels to get models that make use of it.

that is an excruciatingly dumb argument.

Quote

A surge token can only be used once then it is spent and gone, a natural surge is constantly available. A surge token can only convert 1 surge per token to a hit or block. Any surges beyond the number of tokens is lost. With a natural surge, the number of times you can use it is equal to the number of surge results that you rolled. There is no upper cap.

I already listed numerous examples of when native surge is either worse than surge tokens or disadvantageous.

For example: Cost. native surge costs more than surge tokens. Cost is a downside. Or shareability. GAR can share freely surge tokens but cant freely share native surge. Or ISF having both reliable 1 and native surge to hit. Native surge to hit reduces the value of the reliable 1 keyword significantly by reducing the chance of being able to spend the surge token. Those are conflicting abilities. Or the T-21 having critical 2 and stormtroopers having native surge to hit. Also conflicting abilities.

There more. I dont feel like typing out all the other examples again, you can go back and look at them.

Quote

A surge token can only be used once then it is spent and gone, a natural surge is constantly available. A surge token can only convert 1 surge per token to a hit or block. Any surges beyond the number of tokens is lost. With a natural surge, the number of times you can use it is equal to the number of surge results that you rolled. There is no upper cap.

A conclusion based on the previous fact: A surge token is only as good as a natural surge if your roll is equal to or less than the number of surge tokens you have available. Outside of this singular scenario surge tokens are inferior to a natural surge when it comes to cause and effect of dice rolling.

Youre forgetting that surge tokens can be spent on both offense and defense though.

So if you have a surge token and dont roll any surges on your attack roll you can still use the surge token to surge on your defense rolls.

Whereas a unit that only has native surge to hit that doesnt roll any surges on its attack doesnt get to surge on its defense rolls.

Surge tokens have a degree of flexibility in that regard.

There are of course units with double native surge but theyre pretty uncommon and you can bet theyre paying a lot of points for double surge. Double surge units like Deathtroopers are very expensive for a reason.

Again the blanket statement that "native surge is always better than surge tokens" is factually untrue. Surge tokens can do things native surge cant. And there are situations where they are actually better. Being in denial about it doesnt change that. Just like being in denial about GAR being broken wont change the fact theyre going to get nerfed.

On 9/24/2020 at 12:20 AM, Alpha17 said:

Since this thread is so off topic as to be laughable, I just wanted to point out that this is like the third thread in a row to be filled with people arguing with a single user, with no progress being made in convincing him of much of anything. Since he clearly doesn't understand the difference between facts and opinions (at least his own opinions) I seriously urge all of you to consider putting him on your ignore list. If you like talking at walls, with nothing really gained by the process, go right ahead and knock yourself out. Just know that the pointless yelling is making up the majority of new posts right now.

EDIT: Third thread in a row I've read TODAY. If we add up everything he has derailed, it's probably pretty **** sad.

How am I supposed to be entertained though?

😆

I'll try to bring this thread back on topic.

Here is a list I made that doesn't rely on standby sharing, that I think could be effective:

Clone Captain Rex (Aggressive Tactics, Recon Intel)
R2-D2
Phase I Clone Troopers (Z-6 Phase I Trooper)
Phase I Clone Troopers (Z-6 Phase I Trooper)
Phase I Clone Troopers (Z-6 Phase I Trooper)
Arc Troopers (DC-15x ARC Trooper)
Arc Troopers (DC-15x ARC Trooper)
Arc Troopers (Strike Team) (DC-15x ARC Trooper)
AT-RT (AT-RT Flame Thrower)
AT-RT (AT-RT Flame Thrower)

796p

3 hours ago, Khobai said:

Most of what Ive said IS a fact though. Its mostly just GAR players being in denial about their faction's game mechanics being broken that argue with me all the time.

Ill be vindicated once GAR gets nerfed

GAR has made a game I once had fun playing absolutely miserable to play. So once they get nerfed I can try to have a positive outlook on the game again.

The scenario where the T-21 is alive and the attack roll has 2 or less surges is the most common scenario though. In most cases the T-21 will die second to last and the odds of rolling more than 2 surges are exceedingly low.

Also force choke and los sniping are not "common". choke isnt even in the majority of games. and los sniping is pretty uncommon so long as you dont screw up the placement of your heavy weapons.

A lot of units dont come with the upgrade cards that people use on those units.

Just because palpatine doesnt come with aggressive tactics or force guidance doesnt mean you cant put aggressive tactics or force guidance on palpatine.

nor does it exclude the possibility that empire will get a commander with aggressive tactics or force guidance or more models that make use of surge tokens in the future.

the surge token mechanic is fairly new it will take time for imperials and rebels to get models that make use of it.

that is an excruciatingly dumb argument.

I already listed numerous examples of when native surge is either worse than surge tokens or disadvantageous.

For example: Cost. native surge costs more than surge tokens. Cost is a downside. Or shareability. GAR can share freely surge tokens but cant freely share native surge. Or ISF having both reliable 1 and native surge to hit. Native surge to hit reduces the value of the reliable 1 keyword significantly by reducing the chance of being able to spend the surge token. Those are conflicting abilities. Or the T-21 having critical 2 and stormtroopers having native surge to hit. Also conflicting abilities.

There more. I dont feel like typing out all the other examples again, you can go back and look at them.

Youre forgetting that surge tokens can be spent on both offense and defense though.

So if you have a surge token and dont roll any surges on your attack roll you can still use the surge token to surge on your defense rolls.

Whereas a unit that only has native surge to hit that doesnt roll any surges on its attack doesnt get to surge on its defense rolls.

Surge tokens have a degree of flexibility in that regard.

There are of course units with double native surge but theyre pretty uncommon and you can bet theyre paying a lot of points for double surge. Double surge units like Deathtroopers are very expensive for a reason.

Again the blanket statement that "native surge is always better than surge tokens" is factually untrue. Surge tokens can do things native surge cant. And there are situations where they are actually better. Being in denial about it doesnt change that. Just like being in denial about GAR being broken wont change the fact theyre going to get nerfed.

You seem to think that cost is a downside, this is not true. it is the cost of the unit, it just is.

A downside is having to do something that you dont nessesarily want to do to get a benifit in another area. Standbys are the prime example of this, you take the downside of not being able to attack now to gain the upside of potentially being able to attack later at a more advantageous time. Yes we all know your opinion of clones and standbys you dont need to go on another misinformed rant again.

I had a shot the other day that i rolled 5 surges, are you trying to tell me that the 1 surge token that i had was enough? surge tokens are nice to have but they cannot make up for not having a native surge,

The entire GAR faction only has 8 natural surges of any kind spread amongst 11 units (3 units have 6 of them) and only 1 unit has reliable to give out a consistant surge token, the only other way to get surge tokens is command cards or aggresive tactics.

Aggressive tactics is not that good when it comes to getting surges either, the very best scenario for aggresive tactics for the clones means giving out 20 over the entire game with only 4 on the table at a time at most, assuming that you can use all of rex's command cards and can coordinate with Fives every round and have found both of the holoprojectors in the supply deck. not really that many is it. and since there is only 8 instances of Critical on the entire faction as well (3 of them on the Saber Tank) they are suffering from a complete lack of surge all of the time.

The lack of native surge is definitley a downside for the faction and the fact that they can share the surge tokens that they do have doesn't come close to making up for not having one.

36 minutes ago, lologrelol said:

I'll try to bring this thread back on topic.

Here is a list I made that doesn't rely on standby sharing, that I think could be effective:

Clone Captain Rex (Aggressive Tactics, Recon Intel)
R2-D2
Phase I Clone Troopers (Z-6 Phase I Trooper)
Phase I Clone Troopers (Z-6 Phase I Trooper)
Phase I Clone Troopers (Z-6 Phase I Trooper)
Arc Troopers (DC-15x ARC Trooper)
Arc Troopers (DC-15x ARC Trooper)
Arc Troopers (Strike Team) (DC-15x ARC Trooper)
AT-RT (AT-RT Flame Thrower)
AT-RT (AT-RT Flame Thrower)

796p

nice but i think the AT-RTs are better with the Rotary or the laser cannon and then fire supporting unless you have 3 of them to charge for the flamethrower, they can and do die before they have gotten close enough to actually hit with the flamethrower unless you have the 3rd one in there to soak up some of the damage as well, they can and will delete a unit per turn but they need to survive long enough for them to do it.

I think a better one would be

Rex (aggressive and Recon)

R2D2

4x Phase 1 with DC15

3x Arc with DC15x Targeting scopes and ascension cables

798

maybe swap out some of the phase 1's for phase 2's if you have em just to get the reliable