If clones lose their standby token sharing, how will this change the faction?

What will be the new trend in clone list design?

What will be the new tactics that clone players now employ?

(I'm assuming Exemplar still allows standby sharing, because very few units have this it would stay the same and remain 'balanced'.)

Losing standby token sharing will make taking naked phase 1s way less good. the 11 activation lists wont be as good anymore. My guess is phase 1s will get phased out for more phase 2s.

I think padme will become a staple to make up for not having the naked phase 1s.

Depending on how good anakin is, I could see anakin/padme being a thing also. Similar to how luke/leia was a staple for rebels for a while.

Padme sharing her standbys will become the staple, Phase Is will just aim/dodge every round rather than standby and then one of the two. I doubt activation counts will go down all that much, mostly because the near-mythical 11 activations were rare net-lists anyway. Anyone that plays tanks, Jedi, or full ARCs will likely see little change to their lists. Points changes will likely do more to upset that balance than anything. Activation control will go up in value, as the heavy hitters (ARCs, Phase IIs) will likely want to last/first more. Fire Support will become big, as eliminating enemy activations ASAP will still be the favored GAR tactic.

Finally, users on here, Discord, and Facebook will claim that the GAR is unplayable, and others will claim it is broken. Debates will rage, and countless new threads will be started on the subject. I'll start taking bets now on which will get more complaints, token sharing or fire support. I'm betting token sharing, with such arguments as "FFG didn't go far enough, now Clones just pass Dodges and surges around and they're unkillable!"

the 11 activation list was neither mythical nor was it rare. it dominated invader league.

sometimes it was 10 activations instead of 11. but regardless the list was nearly identical and more activations than GAR should be capable of having.

2 minutes ago, Khobai said:

the 11 activation list was neither mythical nor was it rare. it dominated invader league.

sometimes it was 10 activations instead of 11. but regardless the list was nearly identical and more activations than GAR should be capable of having.

That only matters if you value Invader league. I do not. And as repeatedly as you bring it up, it most certainly is "near-mythical" because you seem to think it is some amazing thing that can't possibly be beaten and every Clone player ever is using it.

Invader league is legion played at the most competitive and cutthroat level there is with the game's top players from all over the world. Saying you dont value it is the same thing as saying you dont value any competitive game of legion thats played.

And do you even know what the word mythical means? Its not mythical because it EXISTS.

The only reason it wasnt played at gencon is because it wasnt legal since arc troopers hadnt been released yet.

The list is legal now so youll definitely see it again if FFG doesnt do anything about it.

And the list isnt unbeatable but it does win a disproportionate amount of the time. That list is specifically what started the whole debate about needing to remove standby token sharing from the game. Because it abuses standby token sharing more than any other list.

36 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Finally, users on here, Discord, and Facebook will claim that the GAR is unplayable, and others will claim it is broken.

And maybe, just maybe, they will be right. Token sharing gives clones a far, far better action economy/efficiency that any other faction has. It's similar to every clone unit having Electrobinoculars and Portable Scanner without having to spend 14 extra points or occupying the gear slots. It's not the same obviously, the possitive thing of those upgrades is that you pass the token physically so the unit then can move away from other clones and still keep it, but the downside is that you have to choose only 1 unit to pass it to and the clone sharing lets you choose which unit uses it so you choose the one that really needs it, in the moment that is most needed. It happened to me many times for example that I passed dodge tokens with Leia and those units weren't attacked so the tokens were completely lost, which has never happened at least in the very few games I played with or against clones as that dodge ends up being used by that unit or another. And the other difference in favor of clone sharing is that they can also share surge tokens, and standby (hopefully this will be removed). So in my opinion clone sharing is even better than those 2 upgrades.

I'm not saying that clone token sharing should be removed, that gives the faction their own identity and in my opinion that is good to have, but if in the end they become dominating, maybe their costs should be consistent with these abbility of token sharing and the great benefits it gives them.

Standy sharing wasn't really a problem before the introduction of ARC Sniper teams. Because without the strongest range 5 sniper unit in the game clones still had to make plays happen. Even a untargetable standby bubble isn't as useful if your opponent has the range advantage and isn't forced to move into you.

I think removal of standby sharing is necessary although they might be some other less drastic rule changes that adequately addresses this issue like the requirement of the unit sharing the standby to have LOS and/or range to the enemy unit triggering it.

One way or the other it won't affect GAR list building much. If they are ever gonna to change Tactical and Agile as to only trigger on move actions and not on moves from Scout and command cards though...

I would expect GAR players to be using a staple remover to extract Overwatch from their Phase 2s, maybe replacing it with Situational Awareness to take advantage of the Dodge token generation.

Overall though, GAR is still going to want to share tokens and make use of Fire Support for larger attack pools when possible. The main difference would be that the token generators can no longer contribute an attack action indirectly to the front line units every turn, instead contributing Dodge and Aim tokens.

I could see more lists in future focusing on the Clone Commander and Padme.

@Decarior A note about Scout moves triggering Agile/Tactical. I was playing one of my friends who is in the playtest and he had to double check the rules to see if that interaction worked. Take it with a grain of salt, but generally he only has to check obvious interactions like that when he has been playtesting a potential future version of the RRG.

I think the obvious route is the Turn Zero Aim farm alpha strike lists. Still 10-11 activations, and still pretty freakin' brutal.

I've seen these lists farm upwards of 10 aims in turn zero, and can generate another 3-5 without losing quality in the round one activations. Ends up meaning either a couple really mean range 4-5 firesupport shots in round one or 3-4 focused sniper shots with sharpshooter, critical, and lethal with a never ending supply of aims. Having played against it a few times, I think it honestly has more potential than just standby sharing, but gets overlooked because clone standby jank is basically the only way to get standbys to work well enough to be worth it.

4 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I think the obvious route is the Turn Zero Aim farm alpha strike lists. Still 10-11 activations, and still pretty freakin' brutal.

I've seen these lists farm upwards of 10 aims in turn zero, and can generate another 3-5 without losing quality in the round one activations. Ends up meaning either a couple really mean range 4-5 firesupport shots in round one or 3-4 focused sniper shots with sharpshooter, critical, and lethal with a never ending supply of aims. Having played against it a few times, I think it honestly has more potential than just standby sharing, but gets overlooked because clone standby jank is basically the only way to get standbys to work well enough to be worth it.

Youre probably not wrong. I still think token sharing on the whole was an ill-conceived game mechanic. Its obvious they didnt fully think it out.

They may have to end up implementing a rule that a clone unit can only borrow 1 token a turn.

14 hours ago, Khobai said:

Youre probably not wrong. I still think token sharing on the whole was an ill-conceived game mechanic. Its obvious they didnt fully think it out.

They may have to end up implementing a rule that a clone unit can only borrow 1 token a turn.

that is stupid, it would be way too hard to remember which units had and had not received a token on which turn.

Why are you not complaining about the imps doing it then, you only seem to ever bad mouth GAR and Rebels, do you not use those 2 factions so you have to crap on them so that you can get your jollies?

32 minutes ago, 5particus said:

Why are you not complaining about the imps doing it then

Imps and Rebs can't token share?

14 hours ago, Khobai said:

Youre probably not wrong. I still think token sharing on the whole was an ill-conceived game mechanic. Its obvious they didnt fully think it out.

They may have to end up implementing a rule that a clone unit can only borrow 1 token a turn.

Honestly the easiest solution here, if they want to touch the token share shenanigans without destroying it, is to use suppression as a cost to share and add rules with that in mind. Just update the clone trooper rules as such:

• Clone trooper units follow the same rules as trooper units with the following exceptions:

» A clone trooper unit can spend the green tokens of a friendly clone trooper unit at range 1 and in line of sight as if they were their own.

» After a clone trooper unit spends a green token of another friendly clone trooper unit, both units gain a suppression token.

» Clone trooper units with a suppression token cannot spend standby tokens of friendly clone trooper units.

» Green tokens include aim, dodge, standby, and surge tokens.



I know clone players won't like it, but it gives a cost for a very powerful ability that usually 80% or more of an army can benefit from, and it limits the ability to circumvent suppression restricts on standby tokens.

@Darth Sanguis I'm not so sure I like that change, only because it'd make Phase 1 clones practically unusable. They'd rarely get more than 1 action per activation if they shared tokens at all, thus making it an ability you'd use once or maybe twice per game rather than an innate ability as it's supposed to be.

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Imps and Rebs can't token share?

actually it is rebels and CIS that cannot share tokens, Imps can share if Co-ordinated fire has been played

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Honestly the easiest solution here, if they want to touch the token share shenanigans without destroying it, is to use suppression as a cost to share and add rules with that in mind. Just update the clone trooper rules as such:

• Clone trooper units follow the same rules as trooper units with the following exceptions:

» A clone trooper unit can spend the green tokens of a friendly clone trooper unit at range 1 and in line of sight as if they were their own.

» After a clone trooper unit spends a green token of another friendly clone trooper unit, both units gain a suppression token.

» Clone trooper units with a suppression token cannot spend standby tokens of friendly clone trooper units.

» Green tokens include aim, dodge, standby, and surge tokens.



I know clone players won't like it, but it gives a cost for a very powerful ability that usually 80% or more of an army can benefit from, and it limits the ability to circumvent suppression restricts on standby tokens.

ah so you are of the i dont play it so it needs to nerfed into the ground group, gotcha

1 hour ago, Kirjath08 said:

@Darth Sanguis I'm not so sure I like that change, only because it'd make Phase 1 clones practically unusable. They'd rarely get more than 1 action per activation if they shared tokens at all, thus making it an ability you'd use once or maybe twice per game rather than an innate ability as it's supposed to be.

Innate ability that has no draw back and is proving to be very potent. The CIS has a similarly powerful innate ability but it comes with a drawback. If they continue to leave it unchecked, it could be come an issue. Also with suppression falling off at the end of the round, recover actions, the potential of strict orders, the ability to take endurance on most things, and the synergy with Padme. I hardly believe clones would be as crippled as people react. They'd just have to do something other than token farm. Clones really are better than just their farming ability. lol

29 minutes ago, 5particus said:

ah so you are of the i dont play it so it needs to nerfed into the ground group, gotcha

I'm sure you've heard what happens when you assume? I own full armies of all 4 factions. I don't play clones right now because they are boring to play. Riding mechanics for advantage is and always has been boring for me. It was boring when shores+Mors were top tier, it was boring in Armada when people used floatillas to pad out activations and abuse the first/last system. It's always boring.

It needs adjusted. The abilities inherent in clones are potent, the synergies are potent, and the raw stats of the units are potent. If they don't wanna go the route of GW and have the almighty Space Marine Master Race™ hold top competitive spots for the entire run of the game, they have to do something.

Touching token sharing with a cost per use but without giving it a hard cap seems the softest way to do so without breaking the functionality.

29 minutes ago, 5particus said:

actually it is rebels and CIS that cannot share tokens, Imps can share if Co-ordinated fire has been played

That's not really token sharing in the same sense that the GAR do it though. That's more of "token passing" since the other unit only gets it after the unit with the token spends at least one. It requires the units to be activated in a particular order.

@Darth Sanguis My minor issue with your suppression design is that you just gave all Clone Troopers Duck and Cover for free. So now spending a Dodge token from another unit also gives Cover 1. Giving the suppression at the end of the current activation instead would avoid that advantage.

I think that there is a (minor) cost to token sharing, which is the same cost as Coordinate: needing to be positioned together. A spread out GAR army isn't much different from any other army.

2 hours ago, 5particus said:

that is stupid, it would be way too hard to remember which units had and had not received a token on which turn.

Why are you not complaining about the imps doing it then, you only seem to ever bad mouth GAR and Rebels, do you not use those 2 factions so you have to crap on them so that you can get your jollies?

how is it hard? you just give them a token to indicate that theyve already borrowed a token for the turn. WOW SO HARD.

limiting token sharing to 1 token per unit per turn is both incredibly reasonable and easy to keep track of.

Because imps dont do it? I wish imps could token share too maybe then they wouldnt be completely terrible.

I dont bad mouth rebels. Rebels arnt even a good faction lmao. I want both rebels and imperials to get massive buffs.

The only faction I ever bad mouth is GAR and for good reasons . GAR is not fun to play against at all.

7 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Giving the suppression at the end of the current activation instead would avoid that advantage.

That's a fair point, so yeah, end of the activation.

9 minutes ago, Khobai said:

limiting token sharing to 1 token per turn is both incredibly reasonable and easy to keep track of.

Because imps dont do it? I wish imps could token share too maybe then they wouldnt be completely terrible.

I dont bad mouth rebels. Rebels arnt even a good faction lmao. I want both rebels and imperials to get buffed.

Can't wait to see what FFG does with GAR. With so many options it sort of makes me worried. Like they are going to screw it up somehow or go witht the route that pisses everyone off.

Same goes for a Rebel/Empire buff. Its pretty clear they need a lot of help, but how far will FFG go? I would like to see a faction rework that is on the same level as token sharing or activation control. I doubt we will get that, but I am hoping for a lot of point changes.

I expect just point changes, but if they did try to give a stronger identity to the first two factions:

• Empire suppression/range 4 identity I think would be on the easier side to do. Thats pretty much what they do already (just not that good lol). Make the guns cheaper and give out a suppression are two. BAM! sniper faction.
• Rebels ouch that is a tough one. Not really sure what they could do there except say their identity is heroes and lower the cost of them? Han for sure, but I could see Cheiwe, Jyn, and Sabine also getting a baby buff..............................Maybe do something with dodge, nimble, and uncanny luck?

8 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

Rebels ouch that is a tough one. Not really sure what they could do there except say their identity is heroes and lower the cost of them? Han for sure, but I could see Cheiwe, Jyn, and Sabine also getting a baby buff..............................Maybe do something with dodge, nimble, and uncanny luck?

Just like how Empire has many ways to assign extra suppression, Rebels is currently the faction that has more ways to remove them, so it's something.

Leia, Rebel Officer (commader and upgrade) and Pao have Inspire. You can add Hope to Luke to also give him Inspire.

Then Sabine, Jyn and Luke have command cards that give them Inspire for one turn (for Luke is not Inspire per se but is similar) and there's also Turning the Tide.

I don't know if I'm forgetting something.

12 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

if they did try to give a stronger identity to the first two factions:

• Empire suppression/range 4 identity I think would be on the easier side to do. Thats pretty much what they do already (just not that good lol). Make the guns cheaper and give out a suppression are two. BAM! sniper faction.
• Rebels ouch that is a tough one. Not really sure what they could do there except say their identity is heroes and lower the cost of them? Han for sure, but I could see Cheiwe, Jyn, and Sabine also getting a baby buff..............................Maybe do something with dodge, nimble, and uncanny luck?

I think the empire one is about spot on. As a side note I'm actually a little surprised the point costs for these factions worked out the way they did. Thematically the empire was the cheap/unskilled forces but plentiful numbers where the alliance was well funded/trained units with a high mix of veteran/elite soldiers, but had smaller numbers. Thematically I think the rebels should have been the ones costing more lol

As for creating an identity, I think you have the right idea. Imps should be hella suppressive. The rebels on the other hand, well I think they'd be better off with a "died for the cause" buff or keyword. That's kinda the rebel thing right? Dying to accomplish things?

10 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I think the empire one is about spot on. As a side note I'm actually a little surprised the point costs for these factions worked out the way they did. Thematically the empire was the cheap/unskilled forces but plentiful numbers where the alliance was well funded/trained units with a high mix of veteran/elite soldiers, but had smaller numbers. Thematically I think the rebels should have been the ones costing more lol

As for creating an identity, I think you have the right idea. Imps should be hella suppressive. The rebels on the other hand, well I think they'd be better off with a "died for the cause" buff or keyword. That's kinda the rebel thing right? Dying to accomplish things?

Agreed. Identity and point cost really make no sense in Legion and I have come to accept that. 2.0 or 1.5 of Legion may fix that, but that is years away if at all. I would like the say GAR/CIS is a bit better, but **** how are B1s so amazing as a core unit. Compare it to X-wing that I find each faction has a strong identity and look so different in their builds.

I like the idea of sacrifice for Rebels and in theory may be easy to put into the game. Just throw it on a few weak units and bam?

27 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

Leia, Rebel Officer (commader and upgrade) and Pao have Inspire. You can add Hope to Luke to also give him Inspire.

Then Sabine, Jyn and Luke have command cards that give them Inspire for one turn (for Luke is not Inspire per se but is similar) and there's also Turning the Tide.

I don't know if I'm forgetting something.

Would that be too weak thought???? I like the idea and it would work for tauntauns and heroes, but a lot of Rebel units would just die to a regular hit?.........Of course a lot of Rebel units need all they help they can get lol. Hmm I think it is better then the nimbe/danger sense option?