2 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

Agreed. Identity and point cost really make no sense in Legion and I have come to accept that. 2.0 or 1.5 of Legion may fix that, but that is years away if at all. I would like the say GAR/CIS is a bit better, but **** how are B1s so amazing as a core unit. Compare it to X-wing that I find each faction has a strong identity and look so different in their builds.

I think part of the challenge is Legion was originally created with 2 mirror factions purposely as a design philosophy but CIS & GAR came out after what appears to be a shift in design across all the Star Wars games to unique identity factions. That would make sense too as you can't really make mirror units when there are more than 2 factions. Agree in X-Wing each faction does feel like its own but that was after 2.0. Legion will probably get a 1.5 or 2.0 in the future just like X-Wing and Armada.

2 hours ago, codytx2 said:

I think part of the challenge is Legion was originally created with 2 mirror factions purposely as a design philosophy but CIS & GAR came out after what appears to be a shift in design across all the Star Wars games to unique identity factions. That would make sense too as you can't really make mirror units when there are more than 2 factions. Agree in X-Wing each faction does feel like its own but that was after 2.0. Legion will probably get a 1.5 or 2.0 in the future just like X-Wing and Armada.

Understandable and you are right about that mirror mindset that can still be seen in the game. My only only issue with that is the massive lack of foresight. How did they not leave a little wiggle room for the five future factions in case the game succeeded? Same with their yearly points changes. How did they not an emergency plan?

....................... It really seems like they are just winging it and I am not sure if I like that lol. Reminds me when the stated that they were doing ST until at the last minute they switched to PT. Or Disney pushing OT units out right when Clone came out.

And X-wing 1.0 is why I am not too hard on Legion. Growing pains and all that for a game that is pretty good overall. Armada is why I am a bit harsh on Legion. Armada has a lot of faults, but the factions always felt and played different.

37 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

Armada is why I am a bit harsh on Legion.

[Self Realization Intensifies]

On 9/17/2020 at 9:31 AM, Khobai said:

Youre probably not wrong. I still think token sharing on the whole was an ill-conceived game mechanic. Its obvious they didnt fully think it out.

They may have to end up implementing a rule that a clone unit can only borrow 1 token a turn.

Or you just need to git gud son! 😝

nah ill just wait for GAR to get nerfed.

15 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Honestly the easiest solution here, if they want to touch the token share shenanigans without destroying it, is to use suppression as a cost to share and add rules with that in mind. Just update the clone trooper rules as such:

• Clone trooper units follow the same rules as trooper units with the following exceptions:

» A clone trooper unit can spend the green tokens of a friendly clone trooper unit at range 1 and in line of sight as if they were their own.

» After a clone trooper unit spends a green token of another friendly clone trooper unit, both units gain a suppression token.

» Clone trooper units with a suppression token cannot spend standby tokens of friendly clone trooper units.

» Green tokens include aim, dodge, standby, and surge tokens.



I know clone players won't like it, but it gives a cost for a very powerful ability that usually 80% or more of an army can benefit from, and it limits the ability to circumvent suppression restricts on standby tokens.

If you're gonna gimp my faction that hard, I'll just switch back to imperials.

Imperials don't need token sharing because they already have shore/veers/DT/officer aim spam shenanigans. Add in an aggressive tactics and you are good to go.

Rebels are hard done by because its hard to get dodges easily, they are situational, and a better red save is usually more effective anyway.

6 hours ago, lologrelol said:

If you're gonna gimp my faction that hard, I'll just switch back to imperials

20 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Touching token sharing with a cost per use but without giving it a hard cap seems the softest way to do so without breaking the functionality.

20 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I hardly believe clones would be as crippled as people react. They'd just have to do something other than token farm. Clones really are better than just their farming ability. lol

21 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I know clone players won't like it

I doubt it's as "gimping" as clone players react.

I think the idea of nerfing clones, in any way, causes a knee jerk because the clones finally have enough variety in units to start building lists that aren't just Obi+Rex spam. I think clone players have felt so frustrated with the limitations on what they can play they missed (or honestly just don't care?) how powerful their faction really is and how much power creep has developed with the addition of more powerful keywords and synergies.

Clones are inherently strong. Unabated token sharing is only one component to that strength. Adding a cost to use the clone trooper token sharing effect is a soft nerf, it doesn't actually prevent the same shenanigans they do now, it just makes it actually cost something.

3 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I doubt it's as "gimping" as clone players react.

I think the idea of nerfing clones, in any way, causes a knee jerk because the clones finally have enough variety in units to start building lists that aren't just Obi+Rex spam. I think clone players have felt so frustrated with the limitations on what they can play they missed (or honestly just don't care?) how powerful their faction really is and how much power creep has developed with the addition of more powerful keywords and synergies.

Clones are inherently strong. Unabated token sharing is only one component to that strength. Adding a cost to use the clone trooper token sharing effect is a soft nerf, it doesn't actually prevent the same shenanigans they do now, it just makes it actually cost something.

More things to remember is a bad thing. I don't want to have to try to remember whether unit A shared a token or not this turn (either for myself or my opponent). In theory that may be the softest touch, but it is not going to be great in practice. Removing standby sharing is the simplest solution that causes the least amount of ripples across the game.

To actually answer the question:

AT-RT's and BARC's will probably see play. Although BARC's are contingent on a points decrease happening. A Z6 squad performing fire support basically gets back in surge-hit what they lost in not getting to aim, while getting to deliver two squads worth of shots and only subtract cover once. Fives is probably gonna be a staple of these lists, since he turns one order into two on fire support capable units.

ARC troopers also work just fine since sharpshooter on two attacks worth of dice is better than sharpshooter on one.

1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

More things to remember is a bad thing. I don't want to have to try to remember whether unit A shared a token or not this turn (either for myself or my opponent). In theory that may be the softest touch, but it is not going to be great in practice. Removing standby sharing is the simplest solution that causes the least amount of ripples across the game.

Not to be combative, I actually do know what you mean, but I don't understand how that comes into play for my solution? My suggestion gives suppression tokens as green tokens are shared, as a cost for sharing, with a very simple clause added in the clone trooper rules that stop clone units with suppression from spending standby tokens of friendly clone troopers. No memory checks needed.

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Not to be combative, I actually do know what you mean, but I don't understand how that comes into play for my solution? My suggestion gives suppression tokens as green tokens are shared, as a cost for sharing, with a very simple clause added in the clone trooper rules that stop clone units with suppression from spending standby tokens of friendly clone troopers. No memory checks needed.

• Clone trooper units follow the same rules as trooper units with the following exceptions:

» A clone trooper unit can spend the green tokens of a friendly clone trooper unit at range 1 and in line of sight as if they were their own.

» When a clone trooper unit spends a green token of another friendly clone trooper unit, at the end of the activation both units gain a suppression token.

» Clone trooper units with a suppression token cannot spend standby tokens of friendly clone trooper units.

» Green tokens include aim, dodge, standby, and surge tokens.

Apologies, I made a mistake and assumed some things. I must have put a bunch of different ideas together when I responded to you. I enjoy your solution, although I am not sure both units need to get a suppression. That might be a bit too harsh.

54 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

Apologies, I made a mistake and assumed some things. I must have put a bunch of different ideas together when I responded to you. I enjoy your solution, although I am not sure both units need to get a suppression. That might be a bit too harsh.

s'all good. I kind of figured something was up. lol

You could be right. These are my thoughts on it in summary:

Situation A : the unit that spends the token gains a suppression at the end of the activation in which it was spent.

1.) Conclusion: The clones have no incentive to change from the "Let the phase 1s hide and farm" technique. Reasoning: The phase 1s (or token givers) aren't being penalized in action econ from the suppression and are therefore the best unit to use to farm tokens for the spenders.

2.) Conclusion: The "power" unit spending the green tokens likely isn't going to dissuaded from doing so multiple times either. Reasoning: Because of how suppression/panic work, the spending units can have up to 3 suppressions (with rex) and only lose a single action. (it's important to note both arcs and phase 2s have a courage of 2, so they can do this twice without even suffering the econ loss) Consider also how spending farmed tokens to save econ works in conjunction with Padme and her 1 pip, strict orders, recover actions, fire support, and the wide availability of endurance in clone troopers.


Situation B: The unit whose token is spent suffers a suppression at the end of the activation in which it was spent.

1.) Conclusion: The farm unit whose tokens are spent likely isn't going to dissuaded from doing so multiple times and from spreading the farm out amongst more units to avoid more than a single suppression per round on farm units. Reasoning: Because of how suppression/panic work, the farming units can have up to 3 suppressions (with rex) and only lose a single action. Consider also how avoiding shots to farmers can work in conjunction with Padme and her 1 pip, strict orders, recover actions, fire support, and the wide availability of endurance in clone troopers.

2.) Conclusion: The clones have no incentive to change from the "Let the phase 1s hide and farm" technique. Reasoning: The power units aren't being penalized in action econ from the suppression and are therefore still the best option to use for attacks and pushing objectives. Farm units can suffer suppression




This is just a light summary on my thoughts on this, but I've seen how good clones are at leap frogging to avoid the penalties of suppression and poison. I think my solution forces harder decisions for clones without forcing them into a hard cap or outright restrictions on token strategies. I very seriously doubt any of these solutions would "brick" clones as suggested.


I don't know what FFG plans. Hopefully they have something that's effective but still a light enough touch to keep clones viable. I like the clone faction, it's easily one of my favorites to theory craft, I just don't enjoy rampant power creep.

12 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I doubt it's as "gimping" as clone players react.

I think the idea of nerfing clones, in any way, causes a knee jerk because the clones finally have enough variety in units to start building lists that aren't just Obi+Rex spam. I think clone players have felt so frustrated with the limitations on what they can play they missed (or honestly just don't care?) how powerful their faction really is and how much power creep has developed with the addition of more powerful keywords and synergies.

Clones are inherently strong. Unabated token sharing is only one component to that strength. Adding a cost to use the clone trooper token sharing effect is a soft nerf, it doesn't actually prevent the same shenanigans they do now, it just makes it actually cost something.

Anything more than loss of standby sharing will gimp the faction.

BECAUSE:

Imperials will just do token spam better.

Your desire to mess with the fundamentals of a faction is knee-jerk, because you and the rest can't figure out how to outfight clones.

I will admit though, that imps and rebs have a lot of lackluster units that rarely see the light of day. But they do have some solid choices available.

7 hours ago, lologrelol said:

Imperials will just do token spam better.

Really? where are all these magical tokens raining from the sky that imperials get? Because im not seeing them. You mean if I take Veers and then pay for electrobinoculars I can give out 3 tokens? or Veers can use a command card to give dodge tokens to his speederbikes which still wont even keep them alive lol? Padme is way better.

Padme gives out way more tokens than Veers. She can give out at least 4 tokens a turn and thats not even counting her command cards which give out even more tokens. And she shares all of them with exemplar. GAR has Reliable 1 on a corps unit, they get a token just for breathing. And Rex gets a free token just for moving not to mention aggressive tactics. The Saber Tank gets at least 2 free dodge tokens and sometimes more. Anakins coming out with exemplar and Reliable 2 and with force guidance and can be a surge factory. And all these tokens can be shared with other units for ultimate flexibility.

So I dont wanna hear about how token starved GAR is.

Why are all GAR players denialists and they cant even be honest about how good their own faction is?

Imperials are the weakest faction right now. Theyre struggling to even place in the top 8 in competitive events. While GAR is winning every single one. And with every new release GAR is slowly becoming a better version of Imperials. While Imperials keep falling further behind by getting overcosted dumpster fire units like Inferno squad. The only reason GAR's superiority over Imperials isnt more blatantly apparent is because GAR doesnt have their full cycle of releases yet. Imperials still have a wider range of units available to them so they have a few advantages over GAR but its only a matter of time before those few remaining advantages are supplanted as well.

GAR absolutely should be nerfed. And in more ways than standby token sharing. Otherwise there might as well not even be an Imperial faction anymore.

I wanna see standby token sharing gone. I wanna see a nerf to strike teams and R2-D2. I wanna see a change to the abusive leader rules. And I wanna see a lot of buffs for both imperials and rebels. And I mean actual buffs not just laziness where FFG slashes the points cost a little without actually fixing anything.

2 hours ago, Khobai said:

Really? where are all these magical tokens raining from the sky that imperials get? Because im not seeing them. You mean if I take Veers and then pay for electrobinoculars I can give out 3 tokens? or Veers can use a command card to give dodge tokens to his speederbikes which still wont even keep them alive lol? Padme is way better.

Padme gives out way more tokens than Veers. She can give out at least 4 tokens a turn and thats not even counting her command cards which give out even more tokens. And she shares all of them with exemplar. GAR has Reliable 1 on a corps unit, they get a token just for breathing. And Rex gets a free token just for moving not to mention aggressive tactics. The Saber Tank gets at least 2 free dodge tokens and sometimes more. Anakins coming out with exemplar and Reliable 2 and with force guidance and can be a surge factory. And all these tokens can be shared with other units for ultimate flexibility.

So I dont wanna hear about how token starved GAR is.

Why are all GAR players denialists and they cant even be honest about how good their own faction is?

Imperials are the weakest faction right now. Theyre struggling to even place in the top 8 in competitive events. While GAR is winning every single one. And with every new release GAR is slowly becoming a better version of Imperials. While Imperials keep falling further behind by getting overcosted dumpster fire units like Inferno squad. The only reason GAR's superiority over Imperials isnt more blatantly apparent is because GAR doesnt have their full cycle of releases yet. Imperials still have a wider range of units available to them so they have a few advantages over GAR but its only a matter of time before those few remaining advantages are supplanted as well.

GAR absolutely should be nerfed. And in more ways than standby token sharing. Otherwise there might as well not even be an Imperial faction anymore.

I wanna see standby token sharing gone. I wanna see a nerf to strike teams and R2-D2. I wanna see a change to the abusive leader rules. And I wanna see a lot of buffs for both imperials and rebels. And I mean actual buffs not just laziness where FFG slashes the points cost a little without actually fixing anything.

Cool story bro...

Veers - 2 aims +1 aim for electro
3 pip to put out 3 order tokens to:
3 Shore Trooper units, each with Target 1. +3 aims
3 Mortar teams, each with targeting array, fed extra orders from the shores, +3 aims

That's 9 aims. +4 surges if you take aggressive tactics.

Add an officer with electros and you can get 2 more aims.

Add in the aim bot 3 pip card imps get (co-ordinated fire) that lets you feed aims down the line, gaining even more aims.

Full ******* stop.

The last addition Clones need is more tokens to manage. Right from the start I felt Clone range 1 token sharing was a poor design choice. The game already rewards clustering of units and that makes the game much less dynamic on the map, makes tracking board tokens (suppression, commands, aims, dodges, standby, poison, etc..) significantly more difficult, makes unit identification and movement significantly more difficult, and all of this slows the game down a lot. Honestly, I don't like playing vs Clones. The board is a often giant mess of minis and tokens in a 10" radius area.

Add to this, I see a lot of clone units that hard to distinguish from one another, making identifying them quite difficult, if not impossible. In a Prime match I played vs a 6 Core clone list that had all clone corp minis painted exactly the same, with 1mm lines drawn on their shoulders to distinguish them. From any distance beyond 2" you couldn't tell them apart. Due to clone sharing and other game elements that reward clustering, his entire army was all within a 6" area, and he had no less than 25 tokens in this small area, usually a lot more. To say this game was taxing and slow to play was an understatement. I had to ask him almost every activation which minis and tokens belonged to which unit. Not fun.

In short, please, no more tokens for clones. They have too many already! If anything, take some tokens away! 🤣

On 9/19/2020 at 5:41 AM, lologrelol said:

Cool story bro...

Veers - 2 aims +1 aim for electro
3 pip to put out 3 order tokens to:
3 Shore Trooper units, each with Target 1. +3 aims
3 Mortar teams, each with targeting array, fed extra orders from the shores, +3 aims

That's 9 aims. +4 surges if you take aggressive tactics.

Add an officer with electros and you can get 2 more aims.

Add in the aim bot 3 pip card imps get (co-ordinated fire) that lets you feed aims down the line, gaining even more aims.

Full ******* stop.

Umm theres no reason to ever put linked targeting array on a mortar because it already has cumbersome. Youre already taking an aim action with the mortar anyway. The linked targeting arrays are a complete waste of points since you only need one hit for suppressive.

Youre literally constructing a suboptimal list just to try and inflate the aim token count the list generates because you dont want to be wrong. But pointless aim tokens dont count.

GAR can build a tier 1 list with Padme that generates just as many tokens and actually crushes tournaments. GAR is not token starved like you keep claiming. Your veers list isnt really competitive either. Its a mediocre list at best.

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

Umm theres no reason to ever put linked targeting array on a mortar because it already has cumbersome. Youre already taking an aim action with the mortar anyway. The linked targeting arrays are a complete waste of points since you only need one hit for suppressive.

Youre literally constructing a suboptimal list just to try and inflate the aim token count the list generates because you dont want to be wrong. But pointless aim tokens dont count.

GAR can build a tier 1 list with Padme that generates just as many tokens and actually crushes tournaments. GAR is not token starved like you keep claiming. Your veers list isnt really competitive either. Its a mediocre list at best.

You’re right, having two aims for a 3W weapon is just terrible. Why would that unit ever need more than a single aim?

14 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

You’re right, having two aims for a 3W weapon is just terrible. Why would that unit ever need more than a single aim?

There’s no point in arguing with them, they are going to keep whining about how gar is op and empire is too weak and anything anyone says that doesn’t agree with that point is wrong. We aren’t getting any constructive debate out of this since they refuse to consider anyone else’s view points. Continuing to feed this is both toxic to the forum and the legion community.

2 hours ago, Khobai said:

Umm theres no reason to ever put linked targeting array on a mortar because it already has cumbersome. Youre already taking an aim action with the mortar anyway. The linked targeting arrays are a complete waste of points since you only need one hit for suppressive.

Youre literally constructing a suboptimal list just to try and inflate the aim token count the list generates because you dont want to be wrong. But pointless aim tokens dont count.

GAR can build a tier 1 list with Padme that generates just as many tokens and actually crushes tournaments. GAR is not token starved like you keep claiming. Your veers list isnt really competitive either. Its a mediocre list at best.

3 shores and 3 mortars is not sub-optimal.

3 hours ago, Shadowhawk252 said:

There’s no point in arguing with them, they are going to keep whining about how gar is op and empire is too weak and anything anyone says that doesn’t agree with that point is wrong. We aren’t getting any constructive debate out of this since they refuse to consider anyone else’s view points. Continuing to feed this is both toxic to the forum and the legion community.

I fight fire with 🔥

4 hours ago, lologrelol said:

3 shores and 3 mortars is not sub-optimal.

linked targeting array on the mortars is suboptimal

its a waste of 15 points because cumbersome means they usually take an aim action anyway. I certainly wouldnt count tokens on the mortars from linked targeting array because they dont really do anything productive. Theyre not needed to make sure the mortars get at least one hit.

veers and an officer is also a suboptimal commander combination. the command cards you have to take will mostly be generic command cards. coordinated fire is probably the only command card you have that gives you tokens. unless youre trying to fit 2 vehicles into the list to use veer's 2 pip which would be goofy.

whereas rex and padme will have multiple command cards that give them extra tokens. GAR can still generate more tokens throughout the course of a game. Theyre anything but token starved.

If the debate is whether or not Imperials can spam tokens, then whether or not linked targeting array adds value is kind of window dressing, considering you're also saying they aim (and get that token) already.

It sounds like mortars are a factor in token spam lists because they are more free to take aims than many units often are, right?

9 hours ago, Khobai said:

linked targeting array on the mortars is suboptimal

its a waste of 15 points because cumbersome means they usually take an aim action anyway. I certainly wouldnt count tokens on the mortars from linked targeting array because they dont really do anything productive. Theyre not needed to make sure the mortars get at least one hit.

veers and an officer is also a suboptimal commander combination. the command cards you have to take will mostly be generic command cards. coordinated fire is probably the only command card you have that gives you tokens. unless youre trying to fit 2 vehicles into the list to use veer's 2 pip which would be goofy.

whereas rex and padme will have multiple command cards that give them extra tokens. GAR can still generate more tokens throughout the course of a game. Theyre anything but token starved.

except that most of those tokens are surges and the only troopers to have a natural surge so far are Commanders and operatives, most of the time there are a lot of surges left at the end of the round becasue they have to be rolled to be able to spend them, they are not half as useful as a natural surge would be. The only other tokens that are generated are aims and you have to move first so not much good unless you make them move early in the round.

there are a few command cards that also generate tokens of one kind or another but again they are mostly surges.

you just prove by commenting that you have no idea what your talking about.

26 minutes ago, 5particus said:

except that most of those tokens are surges and the only troopers to have a natural surge so far are Commanders and operatives, most of the time there are a lot of surges left at the end of the round becasue they have to be rolled to be able to spend them, they are not half as useful as a natural surge would be.

If you have surge tokens left at the end of the round even after spending one at every opportunity, that is exactly as useful as a natural surge.