Hi all,

Having started playing FFG SWRPG late last year, I’m slowly getting a hang of the system and feel ready to tackle a mass combat. I do, however, struggle with deciding what the two fighting sides’ strengths should be; I mean, I read and understand the rules, but building the pools seem a bit random and arbitrary to me. The rules are primarily concerned with what’s the most powerful/central combat force is on either side, but that doesn’t feel intuitive to me… Well, in any case, how would all y’all “stat” the two sides as laid out below?

For flavor, I want the battle to be very hard for the Rebels, with the PCs finding opportunities to tip the scale at various key points. Rebels fight for their survival while the Imperials fight conservatively and are willing to concede victory and bugger off if things go badly. Discuss!

IMPERIALS (attacking through jungle)
2x AT-ATs
120x Stormtroopers
5x Journeymen Bounty Hunters (Rivals)
1x Death Trooper (Rival)
2x Special Forces/Elite Scout Troopers w/speeder bikes (Rivals)
1x Imperial Intelligence Agent (Rival)
1x ISB Colonel (Nemesis & Leadership 3)

REBELS (defending Whisper Base, w/energy shield & two anti-aircraft Light Turbolaser Batteries)
1x captured AT-ST
41x Alliance Infantry w/6 speeder bikes
25x Weakened Alliance Infantry recovering from injury (Average Severity Critical Injuries)
40x Very weakened Alliance Infantry recovering from serious injury (Hard Severity Critical Injuries)
15x Farmer militia volunteers
1x IG-RM-Series Enforcer Droid (Rival)
+PCs (Leadership 2)

In addition, there will be some space-ships fighting it out overhead, but I intend to disregard these in the Mass Combat check and have the ship combat be mostly PC driven narrative relevance to the battle (if that makes sense). These will be 12x TIES, 2x Imperial Gozanties, & 1x VT-49 Decimator vs. (potentially) 2x captured Lambda shuttles, 1x X-Wing starfighter, 5x Headhunter starfighters; the Gozanties & Decimator will probably hang back as they're the Imp's ticket off the planet.

Well, technically all those injured rebel soldiers should be dead... Minions are killed by crits, just sayin'

I have not run a Mass Combat before, but I think it best to mostly ignore the tables for force strength and instead build it based on relative force strength, with a baseline of 3-4 dice.

In the case above, let's look at the Rebels first. Since they are smaller, 3 dice. But with the anti-air and energy shield, that would be 2 Boost.

With the Imperials, easy 5 dice, no problem.

Who is the "active" unit here? I always interpreted that to mean that the attackers rolled the positive dice and the defenders the negative (or just the attackers roll them all at once), but in Friends Like These the PCs rolled the positive dice every time.

And what is the Rebels objective here? Are they fighting to the death? Are they trying to hold off the Imperials and then flank them to escape in their landing craft? Are they trying to buy time for the fleet to show up?

I'd also like more info as to the layout (Whisper Base seems really small for this), but here's a tentative idea for the Phases:

1. Landing site: Advance Rebel forces harry the enemy at the landing site with help from the AA.
2. Tactical retreat: The advance Rebel forces pull back from the landing zone and through the jungle, baiting the Empire into their camouflaged/concealed fortifications.
3. More tactical retreating: The Rebels pull back inside the shield and to their second line of defenses.
4. The Imperials send infantry in through the shield to overrun the turbolasers/shield generator, allowing the AT-ATs to advance more safely and fire from distance.
5. The Rebels have to hold off the Imperial assault on the building itself.

Do you have Friends Like These and Forged in Battle? If the PCs have time to prepare, forming Fortifications (FiB) or whatever they call it in FLT would be helpful.

I'll have more suggestions once you've answered these questions.

Sorry, very quick and bullet-point replies this time. I must run and get some food for the missus

Injured minions : These exsit for narrative reasons. Our Rebel cell were saddled with caring for 103 injured Rebel survivors of a major battle. They have a bare minimum of equipment to deal with this probelm, plus some ad hoc pre-fab habitation units, but yes, Whisper Base is way too small for the problem (which is the entire point of this). Not sure how I'll handle this yet, but I might just give them WT 4 and a Setback dice, and roll a check for Stormtroopers and one Alliance Infantry at some point during the battle, and times the results by 5 or something to illustrate the conditions. We'll see.

Relative battle forces : I think this is a very sane approach and I'm going to addopt this.

Active side : That'll be the attacking Imperials. I'm aware of the Friends Like These way of doing it (which is supported by the Mass Combat rules which states that the Rebels will typically be the active side, but that doesn't make too much sense to me). Imps are the active side in the Mass Combat (unless the PCs decide to launch some cracy counter attack), and the PCs will be the "active" side during commandy strikes, or whatever they end up wanting to do.

Rebel objective : Survive. There are no (good) evacuation option; not enough ships and some injured Rebels can't be moved under fire at all. Fleeing is the last option. There is also no reinforcement coming; our PCs are on their own in this, new leaders with shoes too big for them. During the battle, I assume the players will want to launch tactical strikes at the AT-ATs, or otherwise try to wipe out a portion of the attacking force to even the field.

Imperial objective : They want to recapture the base but aren't too comitted about. They'll accept defeat and cut their losses if they have to. Basically, this is the one try the former owner (ISB Commodore Dardano in my story) intends to make, and if he can't retake Whisper Base, then so be it.

Layout :
--The "roof" of Whisper Base holds some extra container habitats and the Headhunters.
--The Imperials will land some way away from Whisper Base and make their way through the jungle.
--The Darrastead Village is placed closer to the base in my story, just down-wind in the lower left-hand corner of the map.
--The Comm Tower is intact and in Rebel hands. A small force is stationed here, but the Imps aren't particularly interested in wasting time here; they are after the base, and the tower can come later.

Phases : I haven't gotten around to really thing about this yet, but the PCs will have a couple of days to prepare. But there are some guerilla SpecForce Scout Troopers already on site, who will probably sabotage any/most traps or whatever the Rebels plan in the jungle. There are no good resources nearby for harvesing extra defenses and whatnot (basically, Whisper Base is on an uninhabited world in my story).
--Good ideas for phases, btw.

I don't want this fight to resemble the Friends Like These thing, as I'm going to use that module as the 2nd act finale (coming up in 10-12 sessions).

14 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

Imperial objective : They want to recapture the base but aren't too comitted about. They'll accept defeat and cut their losses if they have to. Basically, this is the one try the former owner (ISB Commodore Dardano in my story) intends to make, and if he can't retake Whisper Base, then so be it.

Then there should probably be a casualty or failed-phase win condition for the Rebels, at which point the Imps will turn tail and evacuate.

16 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

Phases : I haven't gotten around to really thing about this yet, but the PCs will have a couple of days to prepare. But there are some guerilla SpecForce Scout Troopers already on site, who will probably sabotage any/most traps or whatever the Rebels plan in the jungle. There are no good resources nearby for harvesing extra defenses and whatnot (basically, Whisper Base is on an uninhabited world in my story).
--Good ideas for phases, btw.

I would suggest giving the PCs a chance to discover and counter the Imp Guerillas before the fight, allowing them to make use of traps and fortifications.

Fortifications and traps can be as simple as a mine field and some trenches, so a lack of materials isn't too bad. But you said they are in a jungle? To me that says they've got materials a-plenty, with tons of opportunity for camouflage.

Camo netting, blinds, partially covered trenches, mines, the jungle is really ideal terrain for this sort of thing.

I'll come back with some more detailed suggestions, ideas, and recommendations soon.

For the injured minions, I'd suggest that the badly injured ones are simply incapable of fighting. They are, for all intents and purposes, delicate cargo.
The more lightly injured ones can fight, but only if they absolutely have to. If it comes down to a final stand, they grant a marginal force increase.

Fortifications:
Trenches and blinds are going to be your bread and butter for slowing down the enemy advance. In a jungle, blinds are going to be extremely effective and very simple to construct. A system of prepared locations allowing snipers to harry the enemy and fall back to a new location. Also useful for PCs in their efforts. Trenches may be a bit more difficult depending on the topography, but still quite useful and importantly, hard to spot.
(Blind: Check: Avg. Survival; Capacity: 2; Tools: Tookit or knife; Time: 4 hours. Trench: Check: Avg. Athletics; Capacity: 8; Tools: Entrenching tool; Time: 6 hours)

Depending on the number of the above, add Setback to the Imperial checks. Generally just one Setback, but with enough of the above that can be increased to 2. This is also partially for the benefit of the PCs in structured time. If the Imperials succeed in overrunning these positions in structured time, they do not contribute to the Mass Combat.

Rather than building these with the rules from FiB, I'd suggest abstracting it to a single Average Survival/Athletics check (as appropriate) with crew requirements. On success, it adds 1 Setback. 2 extra Success adds an additional Setback. Triumph or 3 Advantage means that they have created a cross-fire with a sequence of hidden trenches, allowing them to bait the Imperials into a trap. In addition to any Setbacks, they upgrade the difficulty of the check for the relevant phase once. After the first attempt at this phase, they lose the upgrade.

Resources to help with the above: Camouflage netting, if you've got it, is an easy way to help conceal trenches because you can stretch it across the top and then add stuff onto it as necessary, where actually using the surrounding foliage would be difficult and possibly counterproductive.

Other obstacles and defenses:

• Minefields are going to be very potent, but they do require having explosives on hand. Hard Mechanics, 10 hours. Upgrade the difficulty of that phase's Mass Combat check once.
• AA Turbolasers: If these can already target ground troops, nevermind. If they can't, then a Hard Mechanics check and 10 hours of work can modify them such that they are able to target ground troops. Add a Setback to Imperial attacks in the relevant phases.
• General fortifications set up around the base perimeter inside the shield to hold off encroaching enemy forces. Easy Knowledge (Warfare) check with 5 hours and 20 allies. Gives cover to defenders (1 Ranged Defense) and adds a Setback to Imperial attacks in the relevant phases.
• Shield Generator: Provides a Setback to applicable phases.
• AA turbolasers provide a Setback to the first phase (landing zone) if it is in range.
• Weather. I strongly suggest you use weather here. Rainstorm especially. Heavy cloud cover adds a Boost to the first phase as it makes it harder for the Rebels to target the landing ships, but it adds a Setback to the press through the jungle if the Rebels are dug in because it adds further concealment to the fortifications. When the Imperials are coming out of the jungle, it adds a Boost because now the Imperials can see the Rebels but the Rebels can't see the Imperials as easily. This will also be very thematic. I suggest for structured time that the rain adds 1 Setback to relevant visual checks. For physical checks, it may depend.

Next post will be phase suggestions.

Set up: The Imperials have a force strength of 5, the Rebels have a force strength of 3 with reserves of 1 (the injured soldiers inside the base).
For calculating Imperial force strength, I'm going to presume they succeed/win each phase. If AT-ATs go down, reduce the Imperial's force strength by 1 each.
(To cut down on confusion, upgrades in difficulty will be referred to as DUpgrade)

Phases:

1. Landing zone: The Imperials try to land their troops. Force Strength: 4 Ability, 2 Difficulty (space forces only). Setback for Turbolasers, Boost for cloud cover.
   PC engagement: If the PCs take out a sizable number of the TIE fighters, reduce the Ability by 1.
   Success: The Imperials land their forces and force back the Rebel air power, reducing its force strength by 1.
   Failure: The Imperials are harassed by the Rebel air power and struggle to land their forces in an orderly manner (reducing force strength available for the next phase by 1).
   Reattempt? No. Advance to the next phase on success or failure.
2. Optional: Advance raiding and tactical retreat: As the Imperials secure a foothold, advance units of Rebels try to disrupt and inflict as many casualties as they can before melting back into the jungle and retreating to prepared defensible positions. Force Strength: 4 Ability, [*] Difficulty (ground forces only). Setback because the Rebels have the benefit of the jungle, Boost because the Imperials have firepower from air support and transports. DUpgrade if the Rebels placed a minefield on the landing zone.
   PC engagement: The PCs have opportunities here to sow confusion among the Imperials, trying to make a few troops seem like many more. If the PCs are able to sufficiently confuse the enemy, add Setback. If they fail and it backfires, add Boost instead as the Imperials pin down exactly where the Rebels are and move to counter them.
   Success: The Imperials land 1 additional force strength. If the Rebels deployed 2 or more force strength, they also take 1 force strength in casualties.
   Failure: The Rebels manage to disrupt the Imperial landing zone before melting into the jungle. The Imperials are unable to land additional force strength for the next phase.
   (optional phase: This requires proactive action by the PCs and fairly aggressive tactics. Further, this may place the Rebels as the acting force, flipping the dice pools)
   Reattempt? No. Advance to the next phase on success or failure.
3. Jungle advance: The Imperials advance cautiously through the jungle, wary of a Rebel trap. Force Strength: 5 Ability, [*] Difficulty (ground forces only). Setback for rainy conditions. 1-2 Setback for Defenses (with possibly 1 DUpgrade as well) and a DUpgrade if there is a minefield present.
   PC engagement: Sniping at Imperial forces, trying to take out officers and disrupt the command chain or herd the Imperials into prepared defenses adds a Setback.
   Success: The Imperials land any additional force strength still in the transports and flush the Rebels out of their prepared positions.
   Failure: The Rebel lines hold, catching the Imperial forces in a brutal crossfire as AT-ATs struggle to force their way through the jungle. Reduce Imperial force strength by 1.
   Reattempt? Yes. If failed, reattempt. Any upgrades from the fortifications are removed, though the minefield remains. On each retry, remove 1 Setback as the Imperials mark fortifications for the AT-ATs.
4. Out of the jungle and into the shield: The Imperials press through the jungle and try to penetrate the shield, overrunning the turbolasers and shield generator to allow the AT-ATs to provide fire support. Force strength: 5 Ability, [*] Difficulty (ground forces only). Setback from shield, Boost for conditions. Setback if the turbolasers are able to target ground units, and Setback if the Rebels prepared defenses inside the shield.
   PC engagement: Rallying the troops to reduce or remove the effects of low morale, and doing their best to fend off elite Imperial units that try to bring down the defenses.
   Success: The shield comes down, the turbolasers are taken offline, and the AT-ATs start firing into the compound as Rebels are routed, scrambling to reach teh relative safe of the base interior and prepare for a final stand. The Rebel force strength is reduced by 1.
   Failure: The Rebels managed to fend off the Imperials and defend the shield generator and turbolasers.
   Reattempt? Yes. If failed, reattempt. The Boost from the conditions is lost, but reduce Setback from fortifications by 1.
5. The last stand: The Imperials deploy the rest of their reserves and move into the base itself. Force strength: 3 Ability (the AT-ATs no longer contribute), [*]+1 Difficulty. Setback from the defensible position and last stand mentality.
   PC engagement: Attempting to rally the troops, adding a Setback from a positive effect on morale. This can backfire, adding a Boost instead. The PCs can also attempt to escape. If the PCs try to bring additional troops with them, see 6a.
   Success: The Imperials clear the building, killing or capturing all the defenders.
   Failure: The Rebels hold them back, buying some more time.
   Reattempt? Yes. If failed, reattempt. If the Rebels retreat, see 6a. If the Imperials retreat, see 6b.
6. 
   6a: Rebel retreat: Rebels are the active force here, but the number of troops they can pull out is restricted and they cannot evacuate the wounded. Force strength: 1 Ability, 3 Difficulty (the AT-ATs no longer contribute).
   PC engagement: Just trying to get out with as many as they can. Fight their way through the halls to an exit.
   Success: Some Rebels get out. Any left in the base, including the wounded, are killed or captured. Those on the outside have to escape and evade in the jungle, hoping to find their way offworld.
   Failure: The Rebels are stopped. No one makes it out. All are killed or captured, though the PCs may get an opportunity to make it out themselves.
   Reattempt? No. The battle ends.
   6b: Imperial retreat: If the Rebels intend to pursue, they become the active force. If they intend to just let the Imperials go, there is no check. Force strength: If inside the building: [*]+1 Ability, 1 Difficulty. If outside: [*] Ability, variable Difficulty. Boost for chasing a demoralized and retreating enemy.
   PC engagement: Trying to pick off any remaining persons of interest and direct allies, hopefully preventing them from getting in over their heads.
   Success: The Rebels kill or capture the remainder of the Imperial force.
   Failure: The remainder of the Imperial force succeeds in pulling out.

"[*]" means that the Difficulty is dependent on how many troops the Rebels commit:
In phase 2, a Triumph can be spent on a successful check to reduce the Rebel force strength by 1. So while committing 2 or more force strength gives greater chance for success, it might also result in having nearly the entire force wiped before the battle has even really begun.
In phase 3, Rebel forces may have been reduced by casualties in the attack on the landing zone so it may be best to retreat entirely, leaving the only opposition as the minefield (1 difficulty due to a single upgrade of a Simple check). A Triumph can be spent on a successful check to reduce the Rebel force strength by 1 unless they retreated.
In phase 4, Rebel forces may be reduced to what was left in the base (aside from wounded soldiers). If all of the advance force's force strength was destroyed, add a Boost as Rebel morale is crushed, watching their few surviving comrades rushing out of the jungle and getting cut down from behind by advancing Imperial forces.
In phase 5, the Rebels are reinforced in their last-ditch effort by the injured troopers who can still hold a blaster. Meanwhile, the Imperials have taken heavy casualties and many are eyeing the prospect of room-to-room fighting dubiously. If the Imperial force strength is less than 2 after removing the AT-ATs from the equation, they will either simply start bombarding the building with AT-AT artillery or retreat if they lack the AT-AT support. A Triumph or Despair on a failed check can be spent to reduce the opposition's force strength by 1.

I've got to take a break now, but next I'll work on an Advantage/Threat Triumph/Despair expenditure table. Any feedback thus far that I should keep in mind? Anything obvious I overlooked?

This looks really, really great, man! I have to sit down and study this for a while tomorrow ('cause it's 11:10PM over here). Thanks, @P-47 Thunderbolt !

Just now, angelman2 said:

This looks really, really great, man! I have to sit down and study this for a while tomorrow ('cause it's 11:10PM over here). Thanks, @P-47 Thunderbolt !

No problem. Working on a couple run-throughs right now to see how it shakes out. Will post when I've finished. I've got a couple points that need adjustment already, and it looks like rushing the LZ is a bad idea if your airpower doesn't come through.

Before I work on a narrative result table, I decided to give it a run-through.

The nice thing about Mass Combats is that you can easily test them yourself and get a feel for how they will run.

I'm going to presume that the Imperial guerillas have been dealt with.

First thing I'm going to do is build Fortifications, presuming an Athletics and Survival of YYG, a Mechanics of YYGG, and a Knowledge (Warfare) of YGG. I'll attempt all of them, though this may not reflect what would happen in the actual game. I will presume finite resources, so any that might be repeatable will only be attempted once.

As for the combat, for the purposes of testing, I'll deploy two units to attack the landing zone, holding one in reserve at the base in case we get overrun.

Add rule:
Force redistribution: Before rolling a Mass Combat check, may attempt to redistribute force strength. Difficulty is equal to Easy+force strength being redistributed. On Failure, you do not succeed in relocating the troops and add a Setback to the Mass Combat check if it involves those troops.

Failed redistribution checks:
(two or more units) A Triumph can be spent to have one of the units relocate anyway.
2 Threat adds an additional Setback.
2 Advantage removes the Setback added by failure.
Despair results in 1 force strength being removed from the fight as a result of miscommunication. It is not present for this phase or the next (returning the phase after that), unless the commander makes another force redistribution check to bring them back.

Successful redistribution checks:
A Triumph can be spent to relocate an additional unit not targeted by the original check.
2 Threat adds a Setback to the next Mass Combat check.
2 Advantage adds a Boost to the next Mass Combat check.
Despair results in a loss of communications or a breakdown of the command structure, preventing the commander from relocating any troops next phase.

Adjust Phases:
Phase 3:
Failure: The Rebel lines hold, catching the Imperial forces in a brutal crossfire as AT-ATs struggle to force their way through the jungle. For every two failed Mass Combat checks, reduce Imperial force strength by 1.
Phase 4:
In phase 4, Rebel forces may be reduced to what was left in the base (aside from wounded soldiers). If all of the advance force's force strength was destroyed, add a Boost as Rebel morale is crushed, watching their few surviving comrades rushing out of the jungle and getting cut down from behind by advancing Imperial forces. Despair can be spent to reduce the Imperial force strength by 1.

In the blocks of additional information (like the above for Phase 4), "retreat" will mean attempting a redistribution check.

Another way to deal with the issue in phase 3 is to change the AT-ATs to Boost dice and add 1 force strength of infantry, bringing the Imperial force to 4 Ability, 2 Boost. A reason both for and against this (depending on your perspective) is that 3 Advantage can be spent "disables an important piece of enemy hardware, destroying a heavy weapon or item of equipment that provided the enemy an advantage in the battle." This would make a degree of sense for removing the Boost die provided by the AT-AT, by disabling it, roadblocking it, whatever.
This is an either/or proposition though: I doubt your Rebels could survive both.

Add Phases:

Phase 5:
5b: The Imperials lack the infantry to press the attack, and so begin to shell the building with their remaining AT-AT(s). Rebel attack: Rebels are the active force here. The injured soldiers cannot join the attack, meaning the Rebels are left with only whatever troops they brought with them. Force strength: [*] Ability, variable Difficulty. Setback for exposed advance.
PC engagement: Shoot some mooks, I guess. The PCs should be encouraged to come up with something clever here, but please don't do a false surrender...
Success: They kill, capture, or route the Imperials. (In the event of an Imperial retreat, see 6b)
Failure: The Rebels are killed or captured by the Imperials, though the PCs may get a chance to try and escape.
Reattempt? No. The battle ends.
5c: The Imperials lack the infantry to press the attack, and so begin to shell the building with their remaining AT-AT(s). Rebel retreat: Rebels are the active force here, but are unable to evacuate the wounded. Force strength: [*] Ability, variable Difficulty (AT-ATs are the only ones that contribute, so either 1-2 Difficulty or 1-2 Setback).
PC engagement: Lead a diversion, try to find some way to evacuate wounded, something else clever.
Success: Some Rebels get out. Any left in the base, including the wounded, are killed or captured. Those on the outside have to escape and evade in the jungle, hoping to find their way offworld.
Failure: The Rebels are picked off by the AT-AT(s) or flanked by the stormtroopers. All are killed or captured, though the PCs may get an opportunity to make it out themselves.
Reattempt? No. The battle ends.

Strategy tips:
Unless your fighters did well in Phase 1, you are best not trying Phase 2.
Phase 3 is the crucial phase for the Rebels. This is where they can get a lot of work done if they fortified the area. This is also a good chance for PCs to do stuff, especially Sharpshooter/Trailblazer PCs or those with the Placard Hunter Duty.
Phase 4 is the last line of defense for the Rebels. If they didn't get much done in Phase 3, they are in a lot of danger if they fail to hold here.

I'll work on a narrative result table, hopefully I can finish it today.

As I go through this, it occurs to me that having the PCs always act as the acting force and the NPCs as the opposition greatly simplifies narrative result expenditure. I think we've made the correct call in changing that though. It just requires a bit more care in writing the result tables.

It is also important to note that advancing does not count as force redistribution and requires no check.

Narrative result tables:

Fortifications:

• Trenches:
  2 extra success increase the Setback provided by 1.
  2 Advantage increases the Ranged Defense by 1.
  Triumph or 3 Advantage means that they have created a cross-fire with a sequence of hidden trenches, allowing them to bait the Imperials into a trap. In addition to any Setbacks, they upgrade the difficulty of the check for the relevant phase once. After the first attempt at phase 3, they lose the upgrade.
  2 Threat means that the fortification only provides Setback for 2 att empts at the phase.
• Blinds:
  Nothing. They are too simple for much improvement. (There are options in FiB, but for building in bulk it's best to simplify them)
• Minefield:
  Triumph or 3 Advantage means that they have placed them extremely well, upgrading the difficulty an additional time.
• AA Turbolasers modification:
  Triumph or 3 Advantage adds an additional Setback to the first combat check involving the emplacement.
  2 Threat means that it can only apply to one of the two, air targets or ground targets.

Phase specific:

• 2: The Imperials can spend a Triumph on a successful check to reduce the Rebel force strength by 1 (invert if the Rebels are the acting force).
• 3: The Imperials can spend a Triumph on a successful check to reduce the Rebel force strength by 1 unless the Rebels have withdrawn.
• 5: A Triumph or a Despair on a failed check can be spent to reduce the opposition's force strength by 1.

General (taken/adapted from Friends Like These and Lead by Example):

1 Advantage/Triumph:
All Nemeses or PCs in the acting force can recover 1 Strain.
The PCs or Rival+ Adversaries notice a key feature of the enemy force (an enemy officer, weapon emplacement, support vehicle, etc.) and its position on the battlefield.
2 Advantage/Triumph:
Add Boost (or Setback if the opposition becomes the acting force) to the next Mass Combat check.
PCs only: When the battle finishes, the PCs each increase their Duty by 1.
Adversaries only: When the battle finishes, drawing on experiences in this battle the Imperial commander gains a talent.
3 Advantage/Triumph:
A previously unnoticed geographical feature or battlefield anomaly provides cover or reprieve to the acting force, downgrading the difficulty of their next check once.
The acting force destroys or disables an important component of the enemy force that provided the enemy an advantage in combat (a walker, a fire team in a key position, a heavy weapon or fortification, etc.).
Triumph:
A notable NPC within the acting force performs a particular feat of heroism. The NPC makes a name for himself in his organization, becoming a recurring character.
Elements of the acting force isolate the enemy command staff, beginning a combat encounter. The enemy commander loses the ability to reposition forces next round.
Double Triumph:
(Empire only, victorious check) The Rebels are routed, allowing the Empire to immediately overrun their position and skip the next phase.
(Rebellion only, victorious check) The Empire is demoralized and loses 1 force strength. The commander decides it is no longer worth it and retreats, or the forces on the ground break and run in a complete route.

1 Threat/Despair:
All Nemeses or PCs in the acting force suffer 1 Strain.
The (in this case literal) fog of war creates confusion on the battlefield. The acting force adds a Setback (or Boost if the opposition becomes the acting force) to the next Mass Combat check as they struggle to tell friend from foe.
2 Threat/Despair:
A PC or Rival+ NPC (chosen at random, or selected by the GM to fit the narrative) in the active force suffers 4 wounds.
Each member of the acting force adds a Setback to their next check (excluding Mass Combat checks).
3 Threat/Despair:
The acting force becomes bogged down in difficult terrain. Upgrade the difficulty (or Ability if the opposition becomes the acting force) of their next check once. In addition, increase the difficulty of checks to relocate forces once.
The enemy destroys or disables an important component of the active force that provided them an advantage in combat (a walker, a fire team in a key position, a heavy weapon or fortification, etc.).
The enemy force deals a significant blow to the command of the acting force, reducing the amount by which they upgrade the next check once.
Despair:
A PC or Rival+ NPC (chosen at random, or selected by the GM to fit the narrative) in the active force suffers a Critical Injury.
Communications are disrupted and orders are garbled, preventing the acting force commander from communicating with his troops. Unless another officer or respected leader who can communicate with the acting force steps in to take the commander's place, the acting force does not upgrade their dice pool next Mass Combat check. The commander is also unable to redistribute his force strength.
Double Despair:
(Empire only, victorious check) The Rebels are routed, allowing the Empire to immediately overrun their position and skip the next phase.
(Rebellion only, victorious check) The Empire is demoralized and loses 1 force strength. The commander decides it is no longer worth it and retreats, or the forces on the ground break and run in a complete route.

First, let me just thank you again, @P-47 Thunderbolt . You are awesome!

I'll just run a random commentary before posting my counter-scheme.

Letting PCs deal with the guerilla Scout Troopers prior to battle : Yes, this is a good idea, and I can even make good use of our Force character’s Foresee power here. I like to find ways of making this useful, so he’ll probably see in the force how the Scouts are digging a tunnel somewhere or working to sabotage something. I like that.

Fortifications : Soft fortifications, logs and vegetation are possible. Trenches more difficult, but definitely possible. But there are no metal barricades and such lying about for them to use. Camouflage is very likely. There is a big caveat in regards to fortifications, however, in that the Rebels doesn’t really know where the Imps will land their ground forces… For space reasons, the Imps will probably land to the north of Whisper Base -- as east, south, & west are crowded by rivers and mountains, but they don’t know exactly where and the best they can probably do is to make a perimeter fortification line to the north of Whisper Base.

Injured Rebels : There are 103 in all, recuperating at the base, and my players are definitely going to enlist those who can fight into defending the base. They’ve been here for some months now, so I ruled that 25 of them were up and about, able to fight well enough (WT 4 & 1 Setback to all checks); another 40 are able to limp around and pull some weight (WT 3 & 2 Setback to all checks); the remaining 38 are bedridden non-combatants. (I have also added that psychological issues and lingering complications are crippling some patients, to get ahead of the player’s arguments that all of them should be able to fight after months in a [understaffed and under-equipped] field hospital). I’ll leave it to the players how they want to deploy their forces, but they are likely to hold the injured in reserves, of course .

Preparation time : Prior to the battle, the Rebels will speed back home (from where they learned about the invasion) and arrive back at the Whisper Base planet some 2 days before the Imps. So, they only have 2 days to do major preparations (although they have already done some stuff, narratively, so I’ll be lenient here) .

Obstacles :
--MINEFIELD = Nope, no mines available. (Possibly a handful of home-made pipe-bombs, but that’s more narrative encounter material than a mass combat effect).
--AA TURBOLASER = Jury-rigging these to work against the ground forces is a great idea. Thank you. My players would likely have wanted that, but I would have forgotten to prepare for it. Great stuff!
--BASE FORTIFICATIONS = All good. There’s enough stuff lying about the base to barricade the place.
--SHIELD GENERATOR = This will likely be a primary Imp target (as per TESB). But, I wonder, how exactly do anti-orbital shields work? Can AT-ATs walk underneath them? (I assume they can as in TESB AT-ATs attack the shield generator, so the generator is not itself protected by the shield). Also, can TIEs fly underneath the shield canopy? Thoughts?
--WEATHER = Yes! I am an analytical and literal person, and managing to bring environments to life is my greatest weakness as a GM. So, thanks for the reminder; this is a great opportunity to do something with weather! Rainstorm it is .

Your test run : I do not possess the skills to read your analysis. What does the 2eP+2eA+3eD etc. mean? Assume that I’m a complete idiot; thank you 😛

MASS COMBAT SET-UP & PHASES counter scheme

Thanks a billion for doing this for me, @P-47 Thunderbolt! This is just so incredibly helpful! But I do need, however, to greatly simplify this, lest my brain melts… I hope you don’t take offence to that; it’s just that my brain is stupid.

Generally, I want a simple battle simulation with as little clutter and math as possible, so that I can focus on the narrative and don’t lose control of the mechanics .

Force Strength : I was going to suggest Imps 5 vs. Rebels 2, but I think that since the Rebels are committed and the Imperials not-so-much, 5:3 works very well. Rebel Reserves (injured fighters) adds +1 strength to the phase where they are used (but possibly adding a Boost to the active Imperials’ roll since they are weak?). Imperials lose 1 strength per AT-AT that goes down. If the Imperial strength equals the Rebel strength at any point, the Imperials call it quits and withdraw the attack.

Note that I do not consider Triumphs and Despairs in the below scheme. These will be implemented on the fly, mostly using RAW tables, OR I will let them enhance/aggravate Mass Combat check results (making “next phase only” effects permanent, etc.).

PHASE 1 – LANDING
Imperials try to land on a quickly lasered clearing. The Rebels try to make life tough for the Imps.
Active = Imp YYYGG (Force strength 5 & Leadership 3)*
Passive = Rebel YYG (Force strength 3 & Leadership 2)*
Boost : 1 (cloud cover)
Setback : 0 to 2 (one per jury-rigged base cannons)
--Success = Imps seize the landing site and push Rebels back. +1 extra Boost to Imps next phase only.
--Fail = Imps land but does not have full control of the site. +1 extra Setback to Imps next phase only.
PC action : Pulling off some havoc = +1 extra Setback to Imps next phase only (or possibly permanently). Killing an AT-AT or 4+ TIEs = Reduce Imp strength by 1 point. If things go badly for the PCs = +1 extra Boost to Imps next phase only (or possibly permanently).
*I won’t continue to list force strengths since this will vary depending on results in previous phases


PHASE 2a – REBEL RETREAT
Rebels turn tail and rush back to their first line of defense in the jungle (i.e. trenches and such).
Boost : None
Setback : 3 (speedy retreat in the cover or rain and jungle) +0 to 2 (one per jury-rigged base cannons)
--Success = Imps harrow the Rebels as they retreat. +1 extra Boost to Imps per 2 successes next phase only.
--Fail = No negative effect. Imps stroll through the jungle.
PC action : PCs try to make a fighting retreat on their own, allowing their forces to flee, which is EXTREMELY dangerous. They might managed similar achievements as in Phase 1, but the consequences of things going badly are greater; downed PCs will at least have to stand out the next phase as they are brought back to base to recover, or whatever. (I don’t want a PC going down to affect the Mass Combat roll directly, but it will greatly reduce the PCs shenanigans and chances to score victories in subsequent phases). If, however, the PCs just retreat with the rest, they take no action this phase.


PHASE 2b – REBEL FIGHTING RETREAT
Rebels make a fighting retreat as they pull back to the first line of defense.
Boost : None
Setback : 2 (Rebels have cover of rain and jungle) +0 to 2 (one per jury-rigged base cannons)
--Success = Rebel forces split up and pinned down, weakening the Rebel side for next phase. -1 Rebel strength for next phase only.
--Fail = Rebels harrow the pursuing Imps. +1 extra Boost to Imps next phase only.
PC action : Same as phase 1.


PHASE 3 – FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE
Rebels attempt to halt the Imperial advance at their hastily prepared jungle fortifications.
Boost : None
Setback : 2 (Rebels have cover of rain and jungle) +0 to 2 (depending on fortifications) +0 to 2 (one per jury-rigged base cannons)
--Success = Imps blast through the first line of defense at little to no cost
--Fail = Imps force the Rebels back, but at great costs. -1 Imperial strength permanently.
PC actions : Same as phase 1.


PHASE 4 – SECOND LINE OF DEFENSE
Rebels fall back to the outer-base defenses, in the cover of the Whisper Base shields.
Boost : 1 (Intel; i.e. the Imps built the base and know it in-and-out)
Setback : 1 (Rebels have cover of rain) +1 to 3 (depending on fortifications) +0 to 2 (one per jury-rigged base cannons) +2 (Shields)
--Success = Remove one Whisper Base defense feature (and accompanying Setback in future phases) per success scored: Base fortifications (can be chosen once per setback granted); Base shields (can be chosen once per setback granted [2]); Base cannons (can be chosen once per setback granted). Alternatively, Reduce Rebel Strength by 1. Repeat this phase until all base defenses are destroyed or the Imperials withdraw.
--Fail = Reduce Imperial strength by 1. Repeat this phase until all base defenses are destroyed or the Imperials withdraw.
PC actions : Same as phase 1.


PHASE 5a – THE LAST STAND
Imperial troops have entered the base. Reduce Imperial strength by 1 per remaining AT-AT (as these cannot enter the base) and the Rebel strength by 1 (as they have lost all coordination and agency now – all that remains is desperate melee)
Boost : 1 (Intel; i.e. the Imps built the base and know it in-and-out) +0 to 1 (the Bounty Hunters come to the fore)
Setback : 1 (Rebels have cover of defending the halls and rooms)
--Success = Reduce Rebel strength by 1. If Rebel strength reach 0 the Imperials conquer Whisper base (go to Phase 6).
--Fail = Reduce Imperial strength by 1.
PC action : Same as phase 1 .


PHASE 5b or PHASE 6 – EVACUATION OF WHISPER BASE
Rebels flee into the woods, taking whatever and whomever they can with them. Some might manage to escape off-world in the shuttles and fighters (although the Headhunters have no hyperdrive).
Boost : 2 (tables have turned and the Imperials now hold all the cards)
Setback : 3 (speedy retreat in the cover or rain and jungle)
--Success = Imps harrow the fleeing Rebels. Reduce Rebel strength by 1 (if this puts the Rebels at -1 strength, they are practically wiped out… only the PCs and perhaps a handful others remain, all injured and traumatized)
--Fail = The Rebels escape into the jungle/off-world. In any case, the Imperials have won back Whisper Base.
PC action : Same as phase 2a.

As for practically running this, I will probably try to do one, or at the most two, phases each session – (we play short sessions over Zoom which greatly limits things) – trying to end each session before the PC action sub-phase, so that I can ask my players what they want to star up next session doing and use the down-time to prepare cool encounters for that. Does that make sense?

1 hour ago, angelman2 said:

--SHIELD GENERATOR = This will likely be a primary Imp target (as per TESB). But, I wonder, how exactly do anti-orbital shields work? Can AT-ATs walk underneath them? (I assume they can as in TESB AT-ATs attack the shield generator, so the generator is not itself protected by the shield). Also, can TIEs fly underneath the shield canopy? Thoughts?

My understanding of it, based on the shields we see in Jedi Crash and the Geonosis arc, is that to pass through you must be grounded and slow moving. So walkers, people, critters, etc. can pass through, but flying craft cannot. So no TIEs, gunships, speederbikes, etc. This is how come droidekas are able to move around with their shields deployed and not simply roll around like a hamster ball.

In Empire at War, the planetary shields do not make this distinction and aerial vehicles/repulsorcraft are able to pass through shields easily. I discard this as simply being game mechanics and contradicting what we see elsewhere.

1 hour ago, angelman2 said:

Your test run : I do not possess the skills to read your analysis. What does the 2eP+2eA+3eD etc. mean? Assume that I’m a complete idiot; thank you 😛

That's simply the command for rolling dice on Orokos. 2eP is two Proficiency dice. "e" for edge, as in Edge of the Empire, and "P" for Proficiency.

1 hour ago, angelman2 said:

MASS COMBAT SET-UP & PHASES counter scheme

Thanks a billion for doing this for me, @P-47 Thunderbolt! This is just so incredibly helpful! But I do need, however, to greatly simplify this, lest my brain melts… I hope you don’t take offence to that; it’s just that my brain is stupid.

No problem! I can make stuff a bit too complex sometimes. I'm glad I can help, you made my weekend much more enjoyable.

1 hour ago, angelman2 said:

PHASE 1 – LANDING
Imperials try to land on a quickly lasered clearing. The Rebels try to make life tough for the Imps.
Active = Imp YYYGG (Force strength 5 & Leadership 3)*
Passive = Rebel YYG (Force strength 3 & Leadership 2)*
Boost : 1 (cloud cover)
Setback : 0 to 2 (one per jury-rigged base cannons)
--Success = Imps seize the landing site and push Rebels back. +1 extra Boost to Imps next phase only.
--Fail = Imps land but does not have full control of the site. +1 extra Setback to Imps next phase only.
PC action : Pulling off some havoc = +1 extra Setback to Imps next phase only (or possibly permanently). Killing an AT-AT or 4+ TIEs = Reduce Imp strength by 1 point. If things go badly for the PCs = +1 extra Boost to Imps next phase only (or possibly permanently).
*I won’t continue to list force strengths since this will vary depending on results in previous phases

My intention was for the AA to provide a Setback to the landing phase by default, as they are able to target the dropships.
I don't think killing the TIEs should reduce the Imperial force strength since they won't really contribute for most of the rest of the battle and are not really part of the force strength calculation. I think having TIE air support might add a Boost though.

It seems you combined my phases 1 and 2 into a single phase. If the Rebels decide not to rush the landing zone with infantry (or rush with less), you'll need to reevaluate the force strength calculation. I split it into air forces/ground forces for the reasons outlined above and because it keeps it simple since you aren't mixing force types.

1 hour ago, angelman2 said:

PHASE 2a – REBEL RETREAT
Rebels turn tail and rush back to their first line of defense in the jungle (i.e. trenches and such).
Boost : None
Setback : 3 (speedy retreat in the cover or rain and jungle) +0 to 2 (one per jury-rigged base cannons)
--Success = Imps harrow the Rebels as they retreat. +1 extra Boost to Imps per 2 successes next phase only.
--Fail = No negative effect. Imps stroll through the jungle.
PC action : PCs try to make a fighting retreat on their own, allowing their forces to flee, which is EXTREMELY dangerous. They might managed similar achievements as in Phase 1, but the consequences of things going badly are greater; downed PCs will at least have to stand out the next phase as they are brought back to base to recover, or whatever. (I don’t want a PC going down to affect the Mass Combat roll directly, but it will greatly reduce the PCs shenanigans and chances to score victories in subsequent phases). If, however, the PCs just retreat with the rest, they take no action this phase.


PHASE 2b – REBEL FIGHTING RETREAT
Rebels make a fighting retreat as they pull back to the first line of defense.
Boost : None
Setback : 2 (Rebels have cover of rain and jungle) +0 to 2 (one per jury-rigged base cannons)
--Success = Rebel forces split up and pinned down, weakening the Rebel side for next phase. -1 Rebel strength for next phase only.
--Fail = Rebels harrow the pursuing Imps. +1 extra Boost to Imps next phase only.
PC action : Same as phase 1.

I would not let the jury rigged base cannons apply in the jungle. It's too closed in and they wouldn't have a clear shot. Firing into the jungle like that is also fairly likely to cause problems for allies with the high risk of friendly fire or unintended consequences from blasting trees that were inconsiderate enough to get in the way.

On your failure for 2b, did you mean +1 Setback? I'm not sure this really makes a fighting retreat worth it at all. You risk losing a force strength and (if I'm correct that you made a mistake) only have a chance to add a Setback. The other way if far safer and has that same Setback one Phase earlier. And if it's actually a Boost, then there is literally no reason to not just retreat.

1 hour ago, angelman2 said:

PHASE 3 – FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE
Rebels attempt to halt the Imperial advance at their hastily prepared jungle fortifications.
Boost : None
Setback : 2 (Rebels have cover of rain and jungle) +0 to 2 (depending on fortifications) +0 to 2 (one per jury-rigged base cannons)
--Success = Imps blast through the first line of defense at little to no cost
--Fail = Imps force the Rebels back, but at great costs. -1 Imperial strength permanently.
PC actions : Same as phase 1.


PHASE 4 – SECOND LINE OF DEFENSE
Rebels fall back to the outer-base defenses, in the cover of the Whisper Base shields.
Boost : 1 (Intel; i.e. the Imps built the base and know it in-and-out)
Setback : 1 (Rebels have cover of rain) +1 to 3 (depending on fortifications) +0 to 2 (one per jury-rigged base cannons) +2 (Shields)
--Success = Remove one Whisper Base defense feature (and accompanying Setback in future phases) per success scored: Base fortifications (can be chosen once per setback granted); Base shields (can be chosen once per setback granted [2]); Base cannons (can be chosen once per setback granted). Alternatively, Reduce Rebel Strength by 1. Repeat this phase until all base defenses are destroyed or the Imperials withdraw.
--Fail = Reduce Imperial strength by 1. Repeat this phase until all base defenses are destroyed or the Imperials withdraw.
PC actions : Same as phase 1.

Again the suggestion regarding not firing turbolasers into the jungle and making both turbolasers 1 Setback rather than 1 each.

1 hour ago, angelman2 said:

PHASE 5a – THE LAST STAND
Imperial troops have entered the base. Reduce Imperial strength by 1 per remaining AT-AT (as these cannot enter the base) and the Rebel strength by 1 (as they have lost all coordination and agency now – all that remains is desperate melee)
Boost : 1 (Intel; i.e. the Imps built the base and know it in-and-out) +0 to 1 (the Bounty Hunters come to the fore)
Setback : 1 (Rebels have cover of defending the halls and rooms)
--Success = Reduce Rebel strength by 1. If Rebel strength reach 0 the Imperials conquer Whisper base (go to Phase 6).
--Fail = Reduce Imperial strength by 1.
PC action : Same as phase 1 .


PHASE 5b or PHASE 6 – EVACUATION OF WHISPER BASE
Rebels flee into the woods, taking whatever and whomever they can with them. Some might manage to escape off-world in the shuttles and fighters (although the Headhunters have no hyperdrive).
Boost : 2 (tables have turned and the Imperials now hold all the cards)
Setback : 3 (speedy retreat in the cover or rain and jungle)
--Success = Imps harrow the fleeing Rebels. Reduce Rebel strength by 1 (if this puts the Rebels at -1 strength, they are practically wiped out… only the PCs and perhaps a handful others remain, all injured and traumatized)
--Fail = The Rebels escape into the jungle/off-world. In any case, the Imperials have won back Whisper Base.
PC action : Same as phase 2a.

In phase 5, I would not reduce the Rebel force strength by 1 because this double-dips with phase 4. This is likely to reduce them to 0 if they aren't already. I would instead allow the injured soldiers to increase their force strength by 1 for the last stand. This way the battle doesn't end with a wipe on phase 4.
I would also not reduce Imperial strength by 1, instead requiring a Triumph/Despair (as appropriate) to reduce either side's force strength.

The reason for the custom narrative result table is to remove results that are inapplicable or do not make sense for the situation.

1 hour ago, angelman2 said:

As for practically running this, I will probably try to do one, or at the most two, phases each session – (we play short sessions over Zoom which greatly limits things) – trying to end each session before the PC action sub-phase, so that I can ask my players what they want to star up next session doing and use the down-time to prepare cool encounters for that. Does that make sense?

Yeah that sounds good.

As a general note: I had the impression you wanted the PCs to win this battle, but not handily and with a chance for failure. I ran the numbers the way I did to make this the probable result. With the way you set it up, it is every unlikely the PCs will manage to hold if the Imperials succeed on phase 4.

PHASE 1 -- THE LANDING
AA Turbolasers : Yes, of course they should work by default during the approach and landing stage. I'm stupid 😏
TIEs : Good point here. I was working under the assumption that TIEs could fly under the shield and wreck havoc; if they can't, then they're much less helpful. Hm... I wonder what I'm going to do with the 12x TIES vs. 1x X-wing & 5x Headhunters thing now... Perhaps the ships should just stand this thing out? Or perhaps the TIEs are there just to provide air support to the landing and protect the AT-ATs during the advance? And... can the defending X-wing/Headhunters fly under the shield? 🤔

PHASE 2 -- REBEL (FIGHTING) RETREAT
AA Turbolasers : Again, yes of course... the guns wouldn't apply in the jungle. Doh! (Same for phase 3 & 4).
Failing 2b : That's a typo. It's supposed to be +1 Setback. My idea here was that in addition to the Setback, the FIGHTING RETREAT grants the PCs more opportunity and better cover for doing their SpecForce stuff than the simple RETREAT would, thereby increasing the odds that they'll manage to take down an AT-AT or whatever (which would decrease the Imperials' overall battle strength). But yes, I agree, +1 Setback is too little a reward for risking a fight.

PHASE 5 -- LAST STAND/EVACUATION
Reduce Rebel Strength : Good point. I forgot about the reserves here... I mean, I do want to let the PCs have a good chance to win this.
Reduce Imperial Strength : The idea here was that the AT-ATs won't contribute in the room-by-room fight to win the base.

5 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

PHASE 1 -- THE LANDING
AA Turbolasers : Yes, of course they should work by default during the approach and landing stage. I'm stupid 😏
TIEs : Good point here. I was working under the assumption that TIEs could fly under the shield and wreck havoc; if they can't, then they're much less helpful. Hm... I wonder what I'm going to do with the 12x TIES vs. 1x X-wing & 5x Headhunters thing now... Perhaps the ships should just stand this thing out? Or perhaps the TIEs are there just to provide air support to the landing and protect the AT-ATs during the advance? And... can the defending X-wing/Headhunters fly under the shield? 🤔

In FLT, air power provides 1 Boost/Setback depending on the side.

I'd say that air power either cancels out as it is busy fighting other air power or it provides a Boost/Setback (depending) to phase 1. In the jungle, it won't be as useful and I'd ignore it.

As for flying through the shield, no. The shield has to be lowered for the air power to pass through. It also has to be lowered for the turbolasers to fire, but I can understand arguing that the shield is polarized, similar to the droideka shields. While I think this is a bit cheaty, it makes things simpler and is not unprecendented.

8 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

PHASE 2 -- REBEL (FIGHTING) RETREAT
AA Turbolasers : Again, yes of course... the guns wouldn't apply in the jungle. Doh! (Same for phase 3 & 4).
Failing 2b : That's a typo. It's supposed to be +1 Setback. My idea here was that in addition to the Setback, the FIGHTING RETREAT grants the PCs more opportunity and better cover for doing their SpecForce stuff than the simple RETREAT would, thereby increasing the odds that they'll manage to take down an AT-AT or whatever. But yes, I agree, +1 Setback is too little a reward for risking a fight.

I'd suggest changing it to temporarily reduce the Imperial force strength by 1 as their forces become bogged down.

9 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

Reduce Imperial Strenght : The idea here was that the AT-ATs won't contribute in the room-by-room fight to win the base.

Yes, I was referring to the failure condition.

3 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

In FLT, air power provides 1 Boost/Setback depending on the side.

I'd say that air power either cancels out as it is busy fighting other air power or it provides a Boost/Setback (depending) to phase 1. In the jungle, it won't be as useful and I'd ignore it.

I need to find somethinig for my pilot PC to do. My original plan was to have a two-tier battle where the murder hobos could shine on the ground and the pilot in the sky. Hm... perhaps I'll just ignore air cover (i.e. reduce it to a Boost/Setback) and let the pilot do their PC action every phase as a starfighter dog-fight... trying to get close enough to take down an AT-AT. Yeah, that might work!

6 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

I need to find somethinig for my pilot PC to do. My original plan was to have a two-tier battle where the murder hobos could shine on the ground and the pilot in the sky. Hm... perhaps I'll just ignore air cover (i.e. reduce it to a Boost/Setback) and let the pilot do their PC action every phase as a starfighter dog-fight... trying to get close enough to take down an AT-AT. Yeah, that might work!

Yeah, I'd say try to fight the TIEs to a stand-still while also targeting the AT-ATs. They are tall/large enough that they could be easily targeted in spite of the jungle, especially as they'll be carving their own path through the jungle and are unlikely to even have a small amount of cover.

6 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yeah, I'd say try to fight the TIEs to a stand-still while also targeting the AT-ATs. They are tall/large enough that they could be easily targeted in spite of the jungle, especially as they'll be carving their own path through the jungle and are unlikely to even have a small amount of cover.

Also, removing as many TIEs as possible before the Base Turbolasers & Shields go down ought to be a priority. Yeah... I'll just invent some separate encounters for the pilot, and use the squadron rules for the supporting Headhunters.

So, thinking about the starfighter dog-fight in the sky over the jungle battleground... How would you pull that off? Play out a single round and let that represent the phase's dogfight? 2 rounds? 5 rounds? Any ideas?

Also, how would you implement the Turbolasers here? A Setbak to the TIEs' turn? Boost to the Rebel starfighter turn?

Just here to say, this Thread was a Joy to skim through. You two put so much great thought into this. I never had a good example for how to use Mass Combat, but if i ever run a larger battle, I will come back to this.

4 hours ago, angelman2 said:

So, thinking about the starfighter dog-fight in the sky over the jungle battleground... How would you pull that off? Play out a single round and let that represent the phase's dogfight? 2 rounds? 5 rounds? Any ideas?

Also, how would you implement the Turbolasers here? A Setbak to the TIEs' turn? Boost to the Rebel starfighter turn?

I'd play it out for about as many rounds as you give the PCs on the ground. It does depend on how long you want to drag out the dogfight, though. I'd say maybe 3 rounds per phase, because you also want the pilots to be able to target the AT-AT without having TIEs on their tail, right? The pilot should be able to clear out the TIEs in 6-9 rounds, I'd guess, but I don't have that much experience with dogfights given my general aversion to space combat.

The turbolasers should hold their fire during a dogfight. Otherwise it should upgrade everyone's rolls, with Despair resulting in a very dead snubfighter. It isn't really made for targeting fighters anyway.

In WWII on bomber escort missions, the flak stopping signaled that you have enemy interceptors incoming.

Hm... question: How fast should the starfighters fly during a dogfight? I mean, there is no benefit, really, to flying fast, right? You're just as easy a target to hit at Speed 1 as at Speed 6, right? Or could difficulty set by silhouette difference and upgraded by Speed, perhaps? (I'm really rusty on this... I too am somewhat adverse to runing vehicle combat).

Both TIEs & X-wings are Silhouette 3, so the difficulty to hit one another is PP. You can take the Evasive Maneuveer to turn the difficulty (both ways) to PR. But speed doesn't affect this at all? Well then, since high speed will make your piloting checks more difficult fast, there is really no reason to fly fast at all during a dogfight (unless you suddenly want to chase that specific enemy over there, or something). I find that a little counter intuitive. TIEs are supposedly difficult to hit because they are fast and agile, but if everyone flies at Speed 1 for safety, that doesn't really make sense...

Any thoughts?

Is it a viable houserule to have... say... Speed or 1/2 Speed factor into targeting difficulty somehow? Or +1 Setback per Speed the traget is traveling or something?

If you want to make it more difficult, I'd suggest running it similar to difficult terrain, but substitute base difficulty for Silhouette. So firing on a TIE going speed 5 is Formidable upgraded twice. If you make it half rounded down, then it's just Average upgraded once.

You could also add positive Handling as extra Defense for the target.

You generally don't have to make piloting checks in a dogfight unless you are in difficult terrain.

So, to organize my thoughts I have tried to formulate some houserules to simulate starfighter dogfights. Note that I'm far from an expert in the SWRPG rules... Let me know what all y'all think about these.

House Rules – Starfighter Dogfighting

To partake in a dogfight requires skill and determination, and a not insignificant amount of luck.

PARTICIPATING IN A ROUND OF DOGFIGHTING

Each round, as the first thing on their turn, all participants in a dogfight must perform one Fly maneuver to stay in (or enter) the dogfight. They perform a Pilot check with the difficulty determined by their ship’s current Speed and half its Silhouette (rounded up), just as with vehicle chases. Ships that fail this Fly maneuver (or elects not to take it) cannot actively participate in the dogfight on their turn; in other words, they cannot attack with any weapons or take the Gain the Advantage or similar action, but they may perform other actions like Damage Control, Boost Shields, Scan the Enemy, etc. (Also, ships that failed to stay in the dogfight cannot usually select other, non-dogfighting targets for an attack either, especially if such targets are guarded by dogfighting enemy ships; see Clearing the Path below).

On their turn, after succeeding with their Fly maneuver, active participants in a dogfight may attack enemy dogfighters; non-dogfighting enemy ships and installations guarded by enemy dogfighters cannot be targeted (but see Clearing the Path below). The difficulty for attacking a dogfighting ship is equal to their current Speed, upgraded once per point of Silhouette that the target ship is smaller than the attacking ship*.

*Note, this is an attempt at simplifying the Table 7-5: Silhouette Comparison rules (AoR Core p.249). There are no advantage to fire at larger ships as one must conceivably still target small individual systems and structural weaknesses to be particularly effective.

Clearing the Path : Many dogfights occur because one side tries to attack an enemy ship or installation with their starfighters and bombers, while enemy starfighters battle to protect it. To attack a target guarded by enemy dogfighters, elements of the attacking side must first clear a path through the enemy fighters to set up an ally’s subsequent assault. To achieve this, a starfighter ace or minion squadron must declare, before their attack, that they will attempt to clear the path. They will then make an attack against one dogfighting enemy ace or squadron (usually determined by the defending side or the GM), and if they manage to neutralize that ace or squadron on their turn, a path to the protected target has been cleared.

Because they are making a dangerous charge at an enemy defense-focused target, the ace or squadron clearing the path leaves themselves vulnerable to counter-attacks. Until the end of their next turn, the difficulty to attack the path clearers – whether they succeeded or not – are downgraded once for all incoming attacks .

If the path was not cleared, the enemy side can – on their subsequent Initiative slot turn – freely redistribute their participating dogfighters so as to exchange a weakened defending ace or squadron for a fresh one.

Once a path is cleared, allies have until the next enemy Initiative slot to try and attack the cleared target. As soon as an enemy ace or squadron gets a turn, the path is closed again. In other words, attacking a starfighter-guarded target requires coordinated precision attacks between (usually) multiple allied aces or squadrons. (In some circumstances, the GM might allow a two-man PC starfighter to execute both the Clearing the Path attack and, if this succeeds, the subsequent main-target assault; i.e. one PC crew member first clears the path for their gunner mate to attack the designated target, or similar).

A classical narrative scheme here would be for the PC dogfighters to spend their 3 rounds trying to clear the path and assault a target critical to influencing the Mass Battle check that phase. A successful Clearing the Path and subsequent targeted assault would score a boon for their side’s Mass Battle check, possibly in the form of one or more Boost/Setback dice (depending on whether the PC side is the active side in the battle), a temporary reduction of the enemy side’s Force Strength for that phase (especially if the destroyed target is a critical component of the enemy’s force), or even a permanent reduction of the enemy’s Force Strength (if the Mass Battle is fairly small scale or the dogfighters’ success particularly impressive).