I find Kel Dors interesting as a race, but it seems to me that they've all got a built-in fatal weakness: their antiox masks. Is there anything in the rules or lore which prevents an enemy, especially one with the Force Move or Force Choke ability, from just... ripping their masks off and letting the Kel Dor die of either asphyxiation or oxygen-poisoning? Heck, their enemy wouldn't even have to be Force-sensitive: a sniper could take their respirators offline before the PCs even know he's there. Or, depending on how respirator tech works in your game, a simple EMP grenade might even take them down!

How would you, as a GM, prevent this weakness from being abused?

49 minutes ago, LazerSwordsman said:

it seems to me that they've all got a built-in fatal weakness

This is true, but they also have the strengths of being able to see very well in the dark, and being able to survive the vacuum of space for about 5 minutes.

50 minutes ago, LazerSwordsman said:

Is there anything in the rules or lore which prevents an enemy, especially one with the Force Move or Force Choke ability, from just... ripping their masks off and letting the Kel Dor die of either asphyxiation or oxygen-poisoning?

Putting aside the fact that killing is a choice that the PCs can (and should be allowed to) make at any point, I would argue that this would be opposed in order to increase the difficulty of doing so. Kel Dor are wearing those masks constantly during their time on alien worlds, so it makes sense that they are securely fixed in place and that their facial folds are capable of gripping them. Same goes for the goggles.

54 minutes ago, LazerSwordsman said:

a sniper could take their respirators offline before the PCs even know he's there.

I mean.. if we're going full realism then a sniper can just kill the guy by putting a bolt through his head. To answer your question, I'd say this equipment follows the same rules as other equipment for being damaged by multiple steps before completely failing.

55 minutes ago, LazerSwordsman said:

How would you, as a GM, prevent this weakness from being abused?

Well, to start with I'm not sure that this weakness needs to be mitigated. It's just a drawback of the species so I'm not sure that it should be countered in any way. Your players should be aware of the consequences of ripping of the target's mask (conflict and social consequences) and any attempt to remove this individuals mask would be strongly opposed by the NPC. However, to more directly answer the question, I would give him a backup respirator, or ensure the environment means that there's no disadvantage to the Kel Dor due to the atmosphere or darkness. If they encounter the Kel Dor on a ship, what's to stop them from venting the ship and killing the party?

If the Kel Dor is a force user, then this becomes actually fairly simple, as you can give them the Alter power so they can create breathable atmosphere for themselves. You rip off the Kel Dor's Mask? He gets rid of the oxygen. Who's at a disadvantage now?

If the Force Choke doesn't kill them outright then I'd just rule that the mask is damaged, but functional enough to work for the time being. The character is experiencing an extreme amount of discomfort, but will survive until a replacement mask can be obtained or emergency repairs are made to the current mask.

I am not seeing a lot of information on the Kel Dor Wookieepedia site about their culture, so it's quite possible that the species doesn't go roaming as much off their own world.

A couple things...

First, to yank it off their face with Move (the only Power that you could do so with, Bind doesn't target items, and there is no "Choke" Power), you'd have to have the Control Upgrade that allows you to pull things from people's grips. To me, it's not just sitting there on their face like sunglasses. It's got to have an alright seal. It's secured.

So there's a significant XP investment/power barrier.

Second, it's not instant death. They would go through the vacuum>suffocation (or dangerous atmosphere) rules just like anyone else. Hold your breath for rounds = to Brawn, then 3 Strain (or Wounds) per round until they're out, then a Crit each round until dead. It's a long time actually. They have plenty of time to, say, slap on a back-up Breath Mask, and/or try to get it back. Or an ally could save them. Not to mention, you can potentially sustain yourself with Advantages used to recover Strain for... a long time (or Stimpaks for Wounds). Perhaps indefinitely if you have a Power like Ebb/Flow (or Heal), or other ways to easily generate Advantage or Recover Strain (Talents), or Wounds.

Having had air breathers in toxic atmospheres and vacuum, it's a good way to raise the stakes and create drama, but it's really not a great existential threat.

Lastly, like any cheap shot, if you or the PCs are gonna play "that game", then you're also just asking for reciprocation and escalation.

6 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Second, it's not instant death. They would go through the vacuum>suffocation (or dangerous atmosphere) rules just like anyone else. Hold your breath for rounds = to Brawn, then 3 Strain (or Wounds) per round until they're out, then a Crit each round until dead. It's a long time actually. They have plenty of time to, say, slap on a back-up Breath Mask, and/or try to get it back. Or an ally could save them. Not to mention, you can potentially sustain yourself with Advantages used to recover Strain for... a long time (or Stimpaks for Wounds). Perhaps indefinitely if you have a Power like Ebb/Flow (or Heal), or other ways to easily generate Advantage or Recover Strain (Talents), or Wounds.

Max stimpacks (barring Stimpack Specialization) can only sustain the Kel Dor for 2 extra rounds, and that's 5 maneuvers minimum.

With Rating 8 (8 wounds per round), 3 rounds is enough to incapacitate all but the most tough PCs. Not sure if holding breath would apply in this case, but that pushes it up to 6 rounds for a fairly common Brawn rating of 3.

And since it's wounds, not strain, Advantage doesn't help you.

And this is on top of any wounds suffered from normal attacks.

That said, yeah. Like most things in this game, it's hard to die and getting your mask removed is not an insurmountable obstacle.

@P-47 Thunderbolt

You're of course neglecting the fact that not only is a dangerous atmosphere very rare, at least in my experience (I've only ever used it myself, once, and never had a GM use it on me - 5+ YEARS of play), but importantly - EVERYONE ELSE would be suffering the same thing. No one's continuing to just fight like everything's ok.

Dangerous atmosphere is not simply "not having your breathable gas". That's like a burning building or corrosive/acidic atmosphere.

But to entertain your nonsense example, you're also "forgetting" that you'd likely be spreading the Stimpaks out much more than that (unless you already had wounds).

1 on the first round of Wounds for 5 (net -3, in your Rating 8 scenario, which in all my years of playing this game I've never seen a Rating 8 dangerous atmosphere used).

2 on the next for 7 (net -4), and you still have an Action.

3 on the next for 4 (net -8), so that's 3 EASY rounds to save yourself or have an ally save you.

Adds much more rounds if you have Stimpak Specialization at hand (Ally or yourself), and/or the Heal Power (Ally or yourself), or a Military Pouch which gives you 2 Stimpak uses as incidentals (I never create a character without this item).

However, you ALSO missed the fact that Kel Dor are Brawn 1 species, so about the most we can assume is, I think, 11 Would Threshold. 3 Brawn Kel For would be very rare/a very specific build.

Still, we're at an easy 4 Rounds to get it back, slap on a back up, or to be saved, in a VERY nasty (and VERY rare) Rating 8 Atmosphere.

But otherwise: yup!

And given that most combat in my experience is over within 5 rounds or less, my point stands solidly. It's very survivable.

Thanks for further proving that point.

20 minutes ago, emsquared said:

@P-47 Thunderbolt

You're of course neglecting the fact that not only is a dangerous atmosphere very rare, at least in my experience (I've only ever used it myself, once, and never had a GM use it on me - 5+ YEARS of play), but importantly - EVERYONE ELSE would be suffering the same thing. No one's continuing to just fight like everything's ok.

Rating 8 atmosphere is the prescribed consequence for a Kel Dor without a breath mask.

28 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Rating 8 atmosphere is the prescribed consequence for a Kel Dor without a breath mask.

Touché!

22 minutes ago, emsquared said:

a Military Pouch which gives you 2 Stimpak uses as incidentals (I never create a character without this item).

I'm ignoring the heal power and Stimpack Specialization because they are both even more rare than a Brawn 3 Kel Dor (something very achievable at CharGen, and not unreasonable).
But you make a mistake here in that a Military Belt Pouch allows you to draw the item as an incidental. It still takes a Maneuver to inject the stimpack.

48 minutes ago, emsquared said:

But to entertain your nonsense example, you're also "forgetting" that you'd likely be spreading the Stimpaks out much more than that (unless you already had wounds).

So 5 Maneuvers (minimum)=15 wounds. 8*2(rounds)-15=1. So 2 rounds worth of wounds. Case and point.

So, Brawn 3 Kel Dor with 13 WT. No Toughened, but a decent starting Brawn with a 332232 build. Combat-capable Kel Dor.

Let's assume you can take 2 Stimpacks each round.
Round 1: (1 Stim) 8-5=3
Round 2: (2 Stim) 11-7=4
Round 3: (2 Stim) 12-3=9

Round 4 and he's out, without taking damage from any other source.

If he can hold his breath, that extends it to the seventh round.

A Brawn 2 Kel Dor with 12 WT.

Round 1: (2 Stim) 8-9=<0
Round 2: (2 Stim) 8-5=3
Round 3: (1 Stim) 11-1=10

Round 4 and he's out, without taking damage from any other source.

If he can hold his breath, that extends it to the sixth round.

One hit from a blaster rifle on either one (for, say, 6 damage) would combine with 8 damage from the atmosphere and incapacitate the Kel Dor if no one provides immediate assistance. From there, they pull another character probably out of combat to keep them alive, or they take a crit every round until they die.

However, it's still very survivable. Backup mask or retrieval is an option, especially if you can hold your breath for rounds equal to Brawn. Even if you can't and are busy stimming yourself, someone can scoop up the mask and bring it to you.

So no, I missed nothing and it is not a "nonsense example."

23 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I'm ignoring the heal power and Stimpack Specialization because they are both even more rare than a Brawn 3 Kel Dor (something very achievable at CharGen, and not unreasonable).

But you make a mistake here in that a Military Belt Pouch allows you to draw the item as an incidental. It still takes a Maneuver to inject the stimpack.

StimSpec and Heal are attainable at chargen for much less XP than 3 Brawn in a Kel Dor. And I've had a PC focused on healing in most campaigns I've ever ran or played, however I very rarely see someone pick a Species and choose to boost it's dump-stat to 3.

So I think the most that can be said is, conditional cases are conditional.

And I can honestly say I have never required, nor been asked to expend a Maneuver to "manage equipment" before using a Stimpak. Never even given it a second thought. Item description says it takes a maneuver to inject, I've only ever seen it played that it's a maneuver to use a Stimpak, start to finish.

30 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

...it's still very survivable.

Yup! Thanks again for your time.

I was under the impression that fine control was an upgrade that had to be bought. as for death by oxygen, there are 3 such races with this weakness.

If a the subject of a force power is of sufficient rank(Rival, Nemesis, Player) the subject is allowed to an opposed Discipline Roll at GM discretion.

2 hours ago, emsquared said:

And I can honestly say I have never required, nor been asked to expend a Maneuver to "manage equipment" before using a Stimpak. Never even given it a second thought. Item description says it takes a maneuver to inject, I've only ever seen it played that it's a maneuver to use a Stimpak, start to finish.

Even if it is just the Maneuver and you don't have to manage gear, the Military Belt Pouch doesn't reduce that time.

The book says "it takes a maneuver for the character to inject it into himself or another." It doesn't address preparing/stowing the item. So I have no reason to believe it is any different than other sorts of gear.

If the kel for is a force user they probably created a protective amulet which could be as unobtrusive as a ring so you don't know what item is the protective amulet. Thus the mask is just for show to not tip off an assassin trying to pull this trick on them. Thus the assasin disables the mask, the kel for pretends to be poisoned and collapses, when the assassin eventually walks up to collect proof of the kill you reroll initiative and throw 2 challenge dice on the assassin's vigilance check. If a despair comes up the assassin's defense is zero (following the example of the dual phase lightsaber attachment) and the kel for is likely to get the first attack.

7 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

If the kel for is a force user they probably created a protective amulet which could be as unobtrusive as a ring so you don't know what item is the protective amulet. Thus the mask is just for show to not tip off an assassin trying to pull this trick on them. Thus the assasin disables the mask, the kel for pretends to be poisoned and collapses, when the assassin eventually walks up to collect proof of the kill you reroll initiative and throw 2 challenge dice on the assassin's vigilance check. If a despair comes up the assassin's defense is zero (following the example of the dual phase lightsaber attachment) and the kel for is likely to get the first attack.

I really like that. I may steal it.

I'll be honest, I had never considered having a backup respirator before, but now it seems obvious. The consensus seems to be that it would take at least a few turns in most atmospheres for Kel Dor to succumb, after holding his/her breath for a few rounds. This does represent a significant disadvantage, but I suppose that like most equipment, respirators have Hard Points that would allow for modifications like an improved facial seal, or even a simple headband. Truly paranoid players might take it a step further and convert their respirators into full helmets, making them extra difficult to remove by force (or with the Force).

20 hours ago, SufficientlyAdvancedMoronics said:

give him a backup respirator, or ensure the environment means that there's no disadvantage to the Kel Dor due to the atmosphere or darkness. If they encounter the Kel Dor on a ship, what's to stop them from venting the ship and killing the party?

That's a great idea! It would never have occurred to me to have the Kel Dor vent atmosphere. Thank you for suggesting it!

Sort of a side topic, but doesn't it seem a bit excessive to be able to hold your breath for rounds equal to Brawn?

It seems to me that you might be able to hold your breath for about a minute before you start taking ill effects . I emphasize because you don't immediately pass out upon passing your Brawn rating, you start suffering strain. It seems to me that it would make more sense for all characters to be able to hold their breath for 1 round/minute before taking strain damage.

The issue is rounds/minutes is not 1/1. I have seen 3/1 and 5/1 ratios in different gear, abilities, and adventures.

6 minutes ago, Lord Dust said:

The issue is rounds/minutes is not 1/1. I have seen 3/1 and 5/1 ratios in different gear, abilities, and adventures.

I believe it was stated in an Order 66 podcast that 1 round is roughly equal to one minute. (not one turn=one minute, but full round)

So I think that one minute is the best baseline to operate from.

In some circumstances it will vary, but this isn't a particularly crunchy system as far as time is concerned. If you try to make it a set amount of time, it gets difficult, so having it be linked to a set number of rounds makes the most sense. Using Brawn has the same pitfalls as saying "X rounds" as far as temporal ratios are concerned.

Do you have any citations for those numbers?

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Sort of a side topic, but doesn't it seem a bit excessive to be able to hold your breath for rounds equal to Brawn?

It seems to me that you might be able to hold your breath for about a minute before you start taking ill effects . I emphasize because you don't immediately pass out upon passing your Brawn rating, you start suffering strain. It seems to me that it would make more sense for all characters to be able to hold their breath for 1 round/minute before taking strain damage.

CRB says rounds "can" last for "a minute or so". That means it also can -not- last that long. I'm not aware of any minimum ever being cited. Rounds are just always exactly as long as they need to be to fit the narrative, and usually undefinedly so.

Beyond that , l ike any mechanic in most any rpg, picking and choosing arbitrarily where to seek or call out a lack of verisimilitude is pretty pointless. But it is especially so in a highly narrative system like this one that seeks to replicate cinematic and improbable heroism.

Doesn't it seem a bit excessive that a character could jump on top of a thermal detenator, or fall from any number of great heights, or be blasted by a starship, and not die?

Doesn't it seem a bit excessive that if you lose a limb, regardless of how gruesome the means, you can act on nearly completely unimpeded (only a Setback), so long as it's not using that limb?

Sure, those things "can" happen. But humans have also been documented holding their breath for many many minutes on end. So that "can" happen too. I'm sure you've already googled it, so I'll let you tell us how long. N ot that earth-humans can be presumed to be a 100% biological analogue to Star Wars humans - and if course aliens species, not at all.

So why those other things, but not this?

It's a fantasy world. The PCs are heroes. It's a game with mechanics like this designed to create interesting and dramatic gameplay, not verisimilitude.

@emsquared , can you at least make a halfhearted attempt to not come off as an aggressive jerk every time you disagree with someone?

Important to note, as I emphasized, that my suggestion of a single round is just before you start taking strain damage. Say someone held their breath for five minutes: That's one round of no damage, then 12 strain damage, which is not enough to incapacitate most starting characters (barring previous strain). Five minutes is pretty impressive.

And no, I didn't Google search it, I was working off my personal knowledge and common sense. But since you asked, I did. While an "average person" can hold their breath underwater for about 30 seconds, someone who is in excellent health and has the training can hold their breath for maybe three minutes.

There are exceptional people who, under IDEAL and CONTROLLED circumstances, held their breath for exceptional amounts of time. Under practical circumstances, you will have to exert yourself and you will not have time to carefully prepare.

2 hours ago, emsquared said:

It's a game with mechanics like this designed to create interesting and dramatic gameplay,

I do not find suffering no ill effects from suffocating for four minutes interesting or dramatic, even if the PC is a really tough guy. Once you introduce a ticking clock of danger, then it actually is interesting.

The potential drawbacks I see are that a physically fit PC with a bunch of strain already incurred could be incapacitated very quickly, and that some species (e.g. Besalisks) have very low starting Strain Thresholds, disadvantaging even physically fit specimens to a frail Twi'lek, all else being equal.

Here's an idea: In addition to a round of invulnerability, allow an Average Resilience check: Each success reduces the damage incurred by 1. So with 3 Success, you'd basically buy yourself an additional round. In this case, the Twi'lek in question is likely to fail and not get any bonuses, while a Besalisk with a minimum pool (barring unusual circumstances) of YGG has a decent chance of reducing a couple damage.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

can you at least make a halfhearted attempt to not come off as an aggressive jerk every time you disagree with someone?

Man, I'm sorry you think someone providing counter point to your assertion is them being an aggressive jerk, but beyond that, I don't know that I can help you. Like, where was there any aggression in what I said?

You ARE arbitrarily picking out a lack of verisimilitude here, and ignoring all the others.

This IS a game that uses mechanics to create cinematic and heroic gameplay, in place of verisimilitude.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

There are exceptional people who, under IDEAL and CONTROLLED circumstances, held their breath for exceptional amounts of time. Under practical circumstances, you will have to exert yourself and you will not have time to carefully prepare.

So what are the real life circumstances where people survive direct grenade blasts, or vehicular-scale weapons fire, or long falls? If they exist, they are exceptional circumstances and/or exceptional people. But they happen all the time in the game. Just like our breath holding example here.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I do not find suffering no ill effects from suffocating for four minutes interesting or dramatic

What I don't find interesting or dramatic would be to have a player's character keel over after a single round where they had no real chance to claw their way back from such a clever and massive setback as having your air supply stolen.

The drama is created by the mechanic in the form of a countdown of rounds, it's interesting gameplay that it impacts your Action Economy more and more just to try to break even with the impact of suffocation, all the while you're trying to use that Action Economy to get back to that basic luxury of breathing that most PCs take for granted.

If you don't see the drama and interesting gameplay in that, you're either just not looking, or you're ignoring it.

13 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Man, I'm sorry you think anyone providing counter point to your assertion is being an aggressive jerk, but beyond that, I don't know that I can help you. Like, where was there any aggression in what I said?

Nah, I can take criticism and disagreement. It's just you. To pretty much everybody.

Maybe try... "Your nonsense example," liberal use of scare quotes, general contempt for disagreement, etc. Including when you are clearly wrong, and are off-track yourself. You come off as extremely arrogant.

13 minutes ago, emsquared said:

So what are the real life circumstances where people survive direct grenade blasts, or vehicular-scale weapons fire, or long falls? If they exist, they are exceptional circumstances and/or exceptional people. But they happen all the time in the game. Just like our breath holding example here.

Depends how you narrate it. Hit by a grenade doesn't mean you held it up to your face. "Hit" by vehicular-scale weapons doesn't mean it hit you in the face, and you'll probably be in bacta for a while.

I like that this game is not especially brutal and death is hard. However, the suffocation rules are often unlikely to actually do anything even on the rare occasion they come into play.

16 minutes ago, emsquared said:

What I don't find interesting or dramatic would be to have a player's character keel over after a single round where they had no real chance to claw their way back from such a clever and massive setback as having your air supply stolen.

For the third time: You don't keel over after a single round. You start taking Strain after a single round. This reduces the timer by only one or two rounds for most PCs, but it's crucial for keeping the suspense and danger.

18 minutes ago, emsquared said:

The drama is created by the mechanic in the form of a countdown of rounds, it's interesting gameplay that it impacts your Action Economy more and more just to try to break even with the impact of suffocation, all the while you're trying to use that Action Economy to get back to that basic luxury of breathing that most PCs take for granted.

If you don't see the drama and interesting gameplay in that, you're either just not looking, or you're ignoring it.

Have you ever been suffocating, or struggling to hold your breath as you complete some task underwater? It takes a lot out of you. In other words, Strain .

That strain is the ticking clock.

With RAW, if you have a ST of 14 and a Brawn of 3, maybe only 4 Strain because it's early in the encounter, you don't have anything to worry about for five rounds. That isn't much of a ticking clock.
"But that's too good" you say.
Okay, let's take a standard starting human with no XP into characteristics or talents: four rounds. Then they're getting close.

When it's one round, you go "Oh no, I've got to get oxygen." because if you don't, you'll start taking strain. There's no "Well I've got a few rounds, let's try to end this quickly." because if you stick around, you may quickly find yourself in a situation where you cannot get back soon enough.

It's also important to bear in mind that the other PCs can try to do things to restore atmosphere or whatever depending on the situation, so unless you set it up very carefully with the intent to make it very hard for them to survive, a smart and moderately lucky party will probably resolve the issue in two rounds. Give-or-take one.

If you go with RAW, they are not going to actually take ill effects from suffocation all that often.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Maybe try... "Your nonsense example," liberal use of scare quotes, general contempt for disagreement, etc.

Right. I hadn't read the full description of Kel Dor probably since I first read F&D, I literally thought you were purposefully trying to use exceptions to prove the rule, so to speak.

That kind of disingenuous approach to debate deserves derision, IMO.

I came in hot because of that. I conceded when you pointed out what you were talking about. And I moderated my tone in my response to this latest bit (I feel like :P).

I'll even apologize right now for being dismissive as I was. I had misplaced your motives (and the rule).

I'm sorry.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Depends how you narrate it.

It depends on how you narrate jumping on top of a thermal detonator? It depends on how you narrate a fall from 100 meters up?

No, it doesn't.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

This reduces the timer by only one or two rounds for most PCs, but it's crucial for keeping the suspense and danger.

You're seriously gonna take this tack after just railing at me a couple posts ago how, when combined with the normal wear and tare of combat, PCs wouldn't be able to successfully sustain themselves?

Which is it?

I've done a few combats in vacuum, and I've done a scene in dangerous atmosphere, in my experience the rules are pretty great at creating danger and suspense. In fact, never heard anyone complain about them until now (and this conversation started out under the opposite premise - that it was an achilles heel), in however many years I've been liking in these forums and people have been using them.

I mean, I guess that means I've been incredibly successful at making my original point, but to swing the other way? Nuh uh. I don't see it.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Have you ever been suffocating, or struggling to hold your breath as you complete some task underwater? It takes a lot out of you. In other words, Strain .

That strain is the ticking clock.

With RAW, if you have a ST of 14 and a Brawn of 3, maybe only 4 Strain because it's early in the encounter, you don't have anything to worry about for five rounds. That isn't much of a ticking clock.
"But that's too good" you say.
Okay, let's take a standard starting human with no XP into characteristics or talents: four rounds. Then they're getting close.

When it's one round, you go "Oh no, I've got to get oxygen." because if you don't, you'll start taking strain. There's no "Well I've got a few rounds, let's try to end this quickly." because if you stick around, you may quickly find yourself in a situation where you cannot get back soon enough.

Have you ever seen someone fall from the top of a building onto concrete, or jump onto a grenade, or be hit by anti-vehicular weaponry? I've not. But I've "heard" it's instant death. Not so, in this game. Not even close.

So where are your complaints about the more blatant and often seen lack of lethality?

Again, you JUST got done railing at me how normal Wound and Strain accumulation, in addition to suffocation, from combat is gonna cut the RAW rules' survivability to next to nothing.

Which is it? You keep changing your story.

9 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Do you have any citations for those numbers?

Yes I do.

Influence Control Upgrade for believing a lie says it last for 1 round or 5 minutes.
Duration of the same power say to increase time affected by 1 round/minutes equal to rank.

Ciphers and Mask: Jump Boots Attachment: Modification Option: Fly for one minute or 3 rounds.

I do not have the explorer and diplomat book on hand but if memory serves each one has a signature ability with a minute/round ratio.

3 hours ago, emsquared said:

Right. I hadn't read the full description of Kel Dor probably since I first read F&D, I literally thought you were purposefully trying to use exceptions to prove the rule, so to speak.

That kind of disingenuous approach to debate deserves derision, IMO.

I came in hot because of that. I conceded when you pointed out what you were talking about. And I moderated my tone in my response to this latest bit (I feel like :P).

I'll even apologize right now for being dismissive as I was. I had misplaced your motives (and the rule).

I'm sorry.

Apology accepted. Thank you.

3 hours ago, emsquared said:

It depends on how you narrate jumping on top of a thermal detonator? It depends on how you narrate a fall from 100 meters up?

No, it doesn't.

I'm saying maybe don't narrate it as jumping on top of a thermal detonator unless you die from it.

Falling from 100 meters up, you're incapacitated with a crit +50. You'll probably survive (~20% chance of dying without immediate medical care with no Durable or previous crits), but you aren't getting up and walking away. Same with Medium, though there's no crit modifier. You also don't have to narrate it as faceplanting into concrete.

3 hours ago, emsquared said:

You're seriously gonna take this tack after just railing at me a couple posts ago how, when combined with the normal wear and tare of combat, PCs wouldn't be able to successfully sustain themselves?

Which is it?

Railing at you?

I was honestly discussing potential drawbacks to my suggestion. I wasn't saying they couldn't sustain themselves, I was saying that I can see drawbacks to shortening the time under specific circumstances, but I still think it's better than the RAW. I also suggested adding a Resilience check to give high-Brawn characters an advantage.

Can you explain/quote what exactly I said that makes you think I'm flip-flopping? Am I missing a comment I made somewhere?

4 hours ago, emsquared said:

Have you ever seen someone fall from the top of a building onto concrete, or jump onto a grenade, or be hit by anti-vehicular weaponry? I've not. But I've "heard" it's instant death. Not so, in this game. Not even close.

So where are your complaints about the more blatant and often seen lack of lethality?

You don't have to narrate falls as faceplanting onto concrete, you don't have to narrate getting hit by a grenade as jumping on one, and you don't have to narrate getting "hit" by anti-vehicle weaponry as getting directly hit by the shot. The book itself references "...be on the periphery of the blast zone, explaining why they survived more-or-less unscathed."

In all three of those situations, that would be how I narrate someone dying. If they didn't die, something prevented the injury from being fatal.

I like the lack of lethality, but in all these cases, you are almost certainly incapacitated, often with a very nasty crit. So this is comparing apples to oranges a bit as my objection here is that you are actually unlikely to have any consequences from suffocation, or at least it doesn't promote an honest reaction to the circumstance.