6 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I see that price range as the rough area he'll fall in cost wise, though I lean more towards 11-14 than the lower end of the range you outlined. His ability is powerful, even with its inherent limits, and his faction agnosticism will add a bit.

Yeaah. I think id side on more the lower end a bit. My guess is in the 9-12 range. Other Coordinate upgrades cost around that or a bit more and i think his multi-ship & help/hurt requirement will bring the cost down a bit. This also puts in into the mid initiative value cost of Squad leader (which is another restrictive, tho less so coordinate)

With Squad Leader being 4-14 points and Tactical Officer being 6 points, it seems FFG knows coordinate is valuable. But as a counterpoint, at their original costs, SL was 4 and TO was 2, so they may undervalue it at release. My personal thought is that 9-12 sounds right, with the higher end being more right. Giving range 3 white coordinate to any crew carrier seems decent to strong.

27 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Giving range 3 white coordinate to any crew carrier seems decent to strong.

13 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Yeaah. I think id side on more the lower end a bit. My guess is in the 9-12 range. Other Coordinate upgrades cost around that or a bit more and i think his multi-ship & help/hurt requirement will bring the cost down a bit. This also puts in into the mid initiative value cost of Squad leader (which is another restrictive, tho less so coordinate)

Need to remember that he isn't just range 3 white Coordinate. He is also range 3 white Jam.

7 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Need to remember that he isn't just range 3 white Coordinate. He is also range 3 white Jam.

hes also a required jam. Dono about you, but alot of scum lists I see are 2 ship lists. Some are more than that, but i feel its rare. The one I usually run is 3, and thats Only because the 3rd ship is a escape ship for the coordinate. I might be able to put Hondo on my hawk and sub the escape ship for something else, but that ship isnt eating too many points as it is. There isnt much i could put in its place that i could feel confident would stick around long enough to make good use of Hondo.

Maybe i just have a limited perspective, but i feel the 3 ship requirement is more of a detriment than you guys think it will be. At Least from the perspective of using the coordinate on yourself. I've never found JAM to be that useful to want to waste and action (or attack) to apply it in all but the rarest of situations, so i dont really think that use for him will be that grand.

7 hours ago, Lyianx said:

hes also a required jam. Dono about you, but alot of scum lists I see are 2 ship lists. Some are more than that, but i feel its rare. The one I usually run is 3, and thats Only because the 3rd ship is a escape ship for the coordinate. I might be able to put Hondo on my hawk and sub the escape ship for something else, but that ship isnt eating too many points as it is. There isnt much i could put in its place that i could feel confident would stick around long enough to make good use of Hondo.

Maybe i just have a limited perspective, but i feel the 3 ship requirement is more of a detriment than you guys think it will be. At Least from the perspective of using the coordinate on yourself. I've never found JAM to be that useful to want to waste and action (or attack) to apply it in all but the rarest of situations, so i dont really think that use for him will be that grand.

i agree with this. i don't think his ability is so powerful it warrants a points cost over 10 points, more like 7 or 8.

you didn't miss any faction can take him i hope, he's not scum only. it'll be interesting to see if anyone can find jank combo shenanigans with him. can't think of any off the top of my head.

Another way to think about it:

• Coordinate is a 1-to-1 action ratio. The coordinator gives up their action, so some other ship gains another one.
• Jam is a 1-to-1 action ratio. The jammer gives up their action, so some other ship loses theirs (deleting their token essentially erases their action).
• Hondo has a worse ratio of 2-to-1.
  • If used on friendlies, Hondo gives up two actions (his ship's action, plus the jam) to gain one (the coordinate)
  • If used on enemies, Hondo gives up his own, and the opponent gets a bonus action, but you jam someone, so you still net out at minus one action.
  • But Hondo is an old pirate respectable businessman, and there are times you can cheat get a good deal. This is the trick to Hondo.
    • Jam your own ships where the jam is unimportant, so you remain 1-to-1 like normal Coordinate.
    • Find times to coordinate an opponent where they can't really gain anything from it, so you remain 1-to-1 like normal Jam.
  • Even if you pull that off, all you've gained is extra range. It does add a new action action to the ship, so it's useful, but dang is this card interesting.

I don't expect a ruling on this, but I'm definitely making a submission to the Official Rules Question form just to tighten up the rules if nothing else.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

I split my question into two mirrored rules questions to (hopefully) focus the response and double the profile of the issue:

Coordinate:

Why does Coordinate in the rules (v1.1.0 pg.8) have a restriction to only friendly ships? There's currently no tactical reason to choose an enemy ship, but there is an upcoming card (Hondo Ohnaka) that won't work at all if you can't Coordinate an enemy.

Jam:

Why does Jam in the rules (v1.1.0 pg.12) have a restriction to only enemy ships? There's currently no tactical reason to choose a friendly ship, but there is an upcoming card (Hondo Ohnaka) that won't work at all if you can't Jam a friendly.

I don’t know if it’s been said but I’m excited to have Jam at R3 and Coordinate at R3.

It’s being flown on my Han Lando build FOH SHOH!

DELETE

On 8/15/2020 at 1:36 AM, meffo said:

you didn't miss any faction can take him i hope, he's not scum only

Not at all. In fact i think that only reinforced our argument that he likely wont cost that much. The other factions all have easier (and less restrictive) ways to coordinate (not to mention most of them can have that action on far more capable ships), so for him to appeal to those factions, he'd have to be a fairly cheaper way to do it.

For scum, the only 'decent' way for them to coordinate (without action restriction), is with a small, fragile, and slow ship, and even with That its Red which either limits your use, or forces you to take Tactical Officer to get regular use out of it. Scum, arguably *need* more ways to coordinate the most.

I'm sure we will see some 'interesting' combos with him with other factions too, but i cant help but feel those would be more 'one-off'/built the list with him in mind kind of lists where as scum would actually consider him just for the coordinate and not some wacky combo. If that makes sense

23 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Not at all. In fact i think that only reinforced our argument that he likely wont cost that much. The other factions all have easier (and less restrictive) ways to coordinate (not to mention most of them can have that action on far more capable ships), so for him to appeal to those factions, he'd have to be a fairly cheaper way to do it.

For scum, the only 'decent' way for them to coordinate (without action restriction), is with a small, fragile, and slow ship, and even with That its Red which either limits your use, or forces you to take Tactical Officer to get regular use out of it. Scum, arguably *need* more ways to coordinate the most.

I'm sure we will see some 'interesting' combos with him with other factions too, but i cant help but feel those would be more 'one-off'/built the list with him in mind kind of lists where as scum would actually consider him just for the coordinate and not some wacky combo. If that makes sense

Once again though, this card isn't just about Range 3 Coordinate. It's also about having a Range 3 Jam. As long as you can coordinate an enemy ship that doesn't benefit much from it, that R3 Jam is fantastic. As long as you can jam an ally that doesn't much care, that R3 Coordinate is good. And Hondo can choose either round-by-round based on what's available and optimal, making him pretty versatile.

Comparing him to other coordinate sources misses the point a bit. Hondo is more complicated to use, but also much more versatile, and he's not just about coordinating allies.

And seriously, that R3 Jam could matter a lot against huge ships, or against certain Standard Play ships that really don't appreciate being jammed (e.g. Vader and other x1s, munitions carriers). IMO the Jam could be the more interesting component Hondo brings to the table. There are a lot of ships out there that are not used to being Jammed because it's always been such a clumsily short-ranged action.

And yes, as a side note, Hondo's also a source of R3 coordinate, which is nice. But that R3 Jam matters too!

20 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I don’t know if it’s been said but I’m excited to have Jam at R3 and Coordinate at R3.

It’s being flown on my Han Lando build FOH SHOH!

Just remember, to use it on friendly ships, you have to also have a third ship involved (since Hondo's ability can never work on his own carrier vessel).

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Just remember, to use it on friendly ships, you have to also have a third ship involved (since Hondo's ability can never work on his own carrier vessel).

I think that is a good thing.

21 hours ago, Wazat said:

Once again though, this card isn't just about Range 3 Coordinate. It's also about having a Range 3 Jam. As long as you can coordinate an enemy ship that doesn't benefit much from it, that R3 Jam is fantastic. As long as you can jam an ally that doesn't much care, that R3 Coordinate is good. And Hondo can choose either round-by-round based on what's available and optimal, making him pretty versatile.

Comparing him to other coordinate sources misses the point a bit. Hondo is more complicated to use, but also much more versatile, and he's not just about coordinating allies.

And seriously, that R3 Jam could matter a lot against huge ships, or against certain Standard Play ships that really don't appreciate being jammed (e.g. Vader and other x1s, munitions carriers). IMO the Jam could be the more interesting component Hondo brings to the table. There are a lot of ships out there that are not used to being Jammed because it's always been such a clumsily short-ranged action.

And yes, as a side note, Hondo's also a source of R3 coordinate, which is nice. But that R3 Jam matters too!

Eh, like i said. I never saw Jam as something so good that id want to sacrifice a better action (or a potentially damaging attack) to apply it. There are rare situations where your opponent may get a very strong benifit from having a green token (or a lock), but most of the time, if i had the option of jamming a ship (even at R3) or taking a focus, most of the time, the focus will be more beneficial. So i still see Hondo as mostly being used (and intended to be used) on friendly ships much more than enemy ships.

Epic games are a different matter and i wasnt including them specifically because they have widly different situations. Hondo really seems more tailored to Epic play than standard as that pesky 3 ship minimum wont be a factor for much of the game and, as you said, jamming off a Reinforce or Lock from a Huge ship would be worth it. Im mearly speaking about Standard play.

Just now, Lyianx said:

Eh, like i said. I never saw Jam as something so good that id want to sacrifice a better action (or a potentially damaging attack) to apply it. There are rare situations where your opponent may get a very strong benifit from having a green token (or a lock), but most of the time, if i had the option of jamming a ship (even at R3) or taking a focus, most of the time, the focus will be more beneficial. So i still see Hondo as mostly being used (and intended to be used) on friendly ships much more than enemy ships.

Epic games are a different matter and i wasnt including them specifically because they have widly different situations. Hondo really seems more tailored to Epic play than standard as that pesky 3 ship minimum wont be a factor for much of the game and, as you said, jamming off a Reinforce or Lock from a Huge ship would be worth it. Im mearly speaking about Standard play.

Yea, given the 3-ship requirement and the strength of Jam against Huge ships, Hondo definitely lends himself to Epic. A huge ship without the lock to fire its Turbolaser, or the focus to mod it properly, or the Reinforce to survive, is a far less effective ship. One action to fluster a giant points-investment from range 3 can be really good.

In standard play some non-force-reliant aces won't like losing their evade or focus, and loss of locks is very important to munitions carriers and TIE Advanced x1s. The ability to shut down one of the alpha-strikers could be mean, for example. But it's definitely less consistently useful in standard... At that point you enjoy the coordinate and only jam when opportunities arise. And if Hondo's too expensive for the utility he brings to Standard, we may only see him mostly in Epic.

And im sure in Standard, there will be some shannagany type combo that involves him but like it said, you'd be building your list with him in mind rather than as a "oh, a coordinate would good to round out this list" kind of add on. I personally dont like building too many 'one-trick-pony' lists as they can get shut down reeally fast.

i don't know if someone already noticed but Actyually maybe there could be a good sinergy between victor hel and hondo.

Am i right?

34 minutes ago, Manolox said:

i don't know if someone already noticed but Actyually maybe there could be a good sinergy between victor hel and hondo.

Am i right?

In what way? Hondo's coordinate or jam doesn't change how many dice Viktor rolls.

39 minutes ago, Manolox said:

i don't know if someone already noticed but Actyually maybe there could be a good sinergy between victor hel and hondo.

I don't see any synergy, am I missing something? Viktor deals with stress and defensive dice rolled, and Hondo deals with coordinate and jam. I'm not seeing a link.

He might mean Major Vermeil. Long-range Jamming is good for him, just like equipping Vader. Though unless Hondo is decently cheap, Vader is a much more solid choice for Vermeil.

48 minutes ago, Wazat said:

In what way? Hondo's coordinate or jam doesn't change how many dice Viktor rolls.

sorry i confused jam and strain

7 minutes ago, Manolox said:

sorry i confused jam and strain

No worries. I'd be a dirty liar if I claimed I'd never made such a mistake.

And it did make me notice Major Vermeil has some potential.

There *are* cards he can combo with more directly. For example...



There are very few (if any) that help with coordinate aside form Biohex as nearly all of them would either be redundant, or refer specifically to the coordinate action, which Hondo isn't doing.
These are more direct synergies. Vermeil can benefit, but I wouldn't really call it a synergy necessarily. Given that id barely call ISB Slicer a direct synergy, but its harder to remove jam tokens (outside of its effect or end phase) than it is to gain a green token.

[Edit]
Looking at it, Biohex may not, in fact, work with Hondo.. ill have to ponder that.

Just now, Lyianx said:

There are very few (if any) that help with coordinate aside form Biohex as nearly all of them would either be redundant, or refer specifically to the coordinate action, which Hondo isn't doing.
These are more direct synergies. Vermeil can benefit, but I wouldn't really call it a synergy necessarily. Given that id barely call ISB Slicer a direct synergy, but its harder to remove jam tokens (outside of its effect or end phase) than it is to gain a green token.

[Edit]
Looking at it, Biohex may not, in fact, work with Hondo.. ill have to ponder that.

I'm pretty sure anything that deals with range is irrelevant, since Hondo skips the normal range and target selection steps.

There's plenty of reason to be optimistic about Coordinate synergy; I posted a list of neat combos earlier. I'll repeat it here and add the Jam synergies too (thanks btw, those are good ideas).