coordinate one of the ships? when you coordinate, you measure to any friendly ships, then choose a friendly ship. but the point of hondo seems to be you can choose friendly or enemy ships, as long as the ships you choose are friendly to each other, no?

should we just play this as it seems intended? should we expect (or at least hope for) an update to the RR on coordinate? or an official clarification on how hondo's ability works?

His ability says he can (admittedly missing the "keyword" "can", but it explicitly states it even without the keyword), so he can.

So, are we asking if Hondo is a direct card ability override?

there can be a lot of strange and silly arguments made. for example, you can argue that hondo's ability only lets you choose friendly ships, since you have to coordinate one of them and only friendly ships are valid targets for coordinate effects. you could also argue that if you choose enemy ships, the coordinate does nothing since you can only coordinate friendly ships - and only the jam works.

either way, he sort of works, or doesn't work as seems intended, or works perfectly as long as you can coordinate enemy ships, which is not possible according to the rules. how should we approach it?

8 minutes ago, meffo said:

there can be a lot of strange and silly arguments made. for example, you can argue that hondo's ability only lets you choose friendly ships, since you have to coordinate one of them and only friendly ships are valid targets for coordinate effects. you could also argue that if you choose enemy ships, the coordinate does nothing since you can only coordinate friendly ships - and only the jam works.

either way, he sort of works, or doesn't work as seems intended, or works perfectly as long as you can coordinate enemy ships, which is not possible according to the rules. how should we approach it?

Using the methodology that has been in place since 2.0 was created.

" GOLDEN RULES
If a rule in this guide contradicts the Rulebook, the rule in this guide takes precedence.

If the ability of a card conflicts with the rules in this guide, the card ability takes precedence.

If a card ability uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

During an attack or while otherwise resolving an effect involving dice, each die cannot be rerolled more than once."

Hondo's ability contradicts the friendly ship restriction for the Coordinate action so supersedes that restriction.

Side note, @Wazat interestingly I did not find these in the options from a search of "Golden Rules" on the wiki. Were they removed from the wiki or did I miss them?

There's a clear intention that Hondo should be permitted to coordinate enemy ships, so the RAI interpretation works just fine. I'd argue that, via @Hiemfire 's explanation above, the RAW interpretation is valid, despite being open for debate for the rules lawyers among us (hopefully, away from the game table).

I also feel that the language is “explicit” enough to achieve the Golden Rule Standard.

It does NOT say coordinate a ship. It says CHOOSE TWO SHIPS... by the time you get to the coordinate/ jam section I feel like you’re committed to the ability and it overrides the general rules of coordinate. On two counts: range and friendly.

Of course, the fly in the ointment is it specifically mentions range ...

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Side note, @Wazat interestingly I did not find these in the options from a search of "Golden Rules" on the wiki. Were they removed from the wiki or did I miss them?

Madness! Why, I'm looking at the page right here , which has surely been here the whole time! (Ignore the creation date of several seconds ago )

There's more than that missing. I only got half way through the rules reference during that particular burst of energy, so there's unfortunately lots more to add. But on the plus side, we got points updated and the Changelog added for the last points update. Baby Steps! Though if anyone has any spare time, we'd love a few extra rules articles to be added covering anything you see missing.

4 hours ago, meffo said:

there can be a lot of strange and silly arguments made. for example, you can argue that hondo's ability only lets you choose friendly ships, since you have to coordinate one of them and only friendly ships are valid targets for coordinate effects. you could also argue that if you choose enemy ships, the coordinate does nothing since you can only coordinate friendly ships - and only the jam works.

either way, he sort of works, or doesn't work as seems intended, or works perfectly as long as you can coordinate enemy ships, which is not possible according to the rules. how should we approach it?

One of the people in my group was arguing that he let's you take any action you want on an enemy ship. Thinking that if you coordinate an enemy ship, the player that coordinated gets to choose the action.

20 minutes ago, Wazat said:

Madness! Why, I'm looking at the page right here , which has surely been here the whole time! (Ignore the creation date of several seconds ago )

There's more than that missing. I only got half way through the rules reference during that particular burst of energy, so there's unfortunately lots more to add. But on the plus side, we got points updated and the Changelog added for the last points update. Baby Steps! Though if anyone has any spare time, we'd love a few extra rules articles to be added covering anything you see missing.

What creation date?

I feel like Hondo is one of those cards that makes more sense if we don't try to go too deep. Not ignore the rules, but when we're trying to parse the finer points of golden rules, does this meet some criteria for applying part of the Golden Rule, etc etc...

Here's a tip: FFG hasn't told us how explicit language needs to be to achieve a Golden Rule Standard. That's all scaffolding that we folks doing rules interpretation onhere have come up with. It's our own nonsense, and the sum of choices we've made about what the text means in our attempts to go RAW.

So what to do? What the card says. Choose two ships friendly to each other at Range 1-3 of you. That ought to be clear enough, since we've had the "friendly to each other" clarified in the epic rules. OK, pick the ships. Either two enemy, or two friendly.

What next? Jam one. Simple. Coordinate the other. OK, so how does coordinate work? Well, we're ignoring the range, and Hondo has his own way of making selections. So what's left? Only Step 3, the chosen ship performs an action. Who chooses the action? That ship chooses, at least as far as I read Step 3. No picking for your opponent, fair enough.

It can still be quite handy, since we can apply strategy to pick the enemy ships where the coordinate does the least good (stressed if possible, or pointing the wrong way, etc etc), or the friendly ships where the jam will do the least harm (one that doesn't and won't get a token).

The simple understanding is often the best one. Rules problems happen more often when we try to get too clever. One ship gets jammed, one ship gets a bonus action. Can we all go home now?

3 hours ago, joeshmoe554 said:

One of the people in my group was arguing that he let's you take any action you want on an enemy ship. Thinking that if you coordinate an enemy ship, the player that coordinated gets to choose the action.

If there are two ways to interpret a rule and one of those ways breaks the game, use the other one.

5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I feel like Hondo is one of those cards that makes more sense if we don't try to go too deep. Not ignore the rules, but when we're trying to parse the finer points of golden rules, does this meet some criteria for applying part of the Golden Rule, etc etc...

Here's a tip: FFG hasn't told us how explicit language needs to be to achieve a Golden Rule Standard. That's all scaffolding that we folks doing rules interpretation onhere have come up with. It's our own nonsense, and the sum of choices we've made about what the text means in our attempts to go RAW.

So what to do? What the card says. Choose two ships friendly to each other at Range 1-3 of you. That ought to be clear enough, since we've had the "friendly to each other" clarified in the epic rules. OK, pick the ships. Either two enemy, or two friendly.

What next? Jam one. Simple. Coordinate the other. OK, so how does coordinate work? Well, we're ignoring the range, and Hondo has his own way of making selections. So what's left? Only Step 3, the chosen ship performs an action. Who chooses the action? That ship chooses, at least as far as I read Step 3. No picking for your opponent, fair enough.

It can still be quite handy, since we can apply strategy to pick the enemy ships where the coordinate does the least good (stressed if possible, or pointing the wrong way, etc etc), or the friendly ships where the jam will do the least harm (one that doesn't and won't get a token).

The simple understanding is often the best one. Rules problems happen more often when we try to get too clever. One ship gets jammed, one ship gets a bonus action. Can we all go home now?

while i 100% agree with that this is how it should be played, it's not that clear - and that's why this forum is here.

well, here's to hoping everyone else will interpret the card just like you have. thank you for clarifying.

9 hours ago, meffo said:

while i 100% agree with that this is how it should be played, it's not that clear - and that's why this forum is here.

I just keep having the feeling that, as much as anyone else, we're the ones muddying the waters.

15 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Here's a tip: FFG hasn't told us how explicit language needs to be to achieve a Golden Rule Standard. That's all scaffolding that we folks doing rules interpretation onhere have come up with. It's our own nonsense, and the sum of choices we've made about what the text means in our attempts to go RAW.

Seeing this so much right now. The presumption that a card ability has to use the word "can" for it to "qualify" for the supersede golden rule is getting really irksome.

16 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Can we all go home now?

At this precise moment, the bigger problem is that we can't LEAVE home...

On 7/31/2020 at 5:20 PM, joeshmoe554 said:

One of the people in my group was arguing that he let's you take any action you want on an enemy ship. Thinking that if you coordinate an enemy ship, the player that coordinated gets to choose the action.

On 7/31/2020 at 8:15 PM, theBitterFig said:

I feel like Hondo is one of those cards that makes more sense if we don't try to go too deep. Not ignore the rules, but when we're trying to parse the finer points of golden rules, does this meet some criteria for applying part of the Golden Rule, etc etc...

Here's a tip: FFG hasn't told us how explicit language needs to be to achieve a Golden Rule Standard. That's all scaffolding that we folks doing rules interpretation onhere have come up with. It's our own nonsense, and the sum of choices we've made about what the text means in our attempts to go RAW.

So what to do? What the card says. Choose two ships friendly to each other at Range 1-3 of you. That ought to be clear enough, since we've had the "friendly to each other" clarified in the epic rules. OK, pick the ships. Either two enemy, or two friendly.

What next? Jam one. Simple. Coordinate the other. OK, so how does coordinate work? Well, we're ignoring the range, and Hondo has his own way of making selections. So what's left? Only Step 3, the chosen ship performs an action. Who chooses the action? That ship chooses, at least as far as I read Step 3. No picking for your opponent, fair enough.

It can still be quite handy, since we can apply strategy to pick the enemy ships where the coordinate does the least good (stressed if possible, or pointing the wrong way, etc etc), or the friendly ships where the jam will do the least harm (one that doesn't and won't get a token).

The simple understanding is often the best one. Rules problems happen more often when we try to get too clever. One ship gets jammed, one ship gets a bonus action. Can we all go home now?

Same question came up in the forums recently, and I get the impression that elsewhere it's become A Big Thing (tm). I really prefer thBitterFig's approach. Follow the rules without adding anything and Hondo will make better sense: the coordinated ship performs one action of its own choosing, as performing an action naturally works. Tractoring a ship into doing a barrel roll or boost has to specifically say "the player whose effect applied the tractor token may choose one of the following effects" and "the player applying the effect selects the direction of the barrel roll and the ship's final position". There's no reason to read that into the rules of Hondo when the card simply doesn't say it.

Otherwise FFG would be handing the most powerful action in the game to this card, the ability to boost or barrel roll someone into a terrible position. It's like tractor beam as an action at range 3 (but you can't put them directly onto a rock), and you get to jam their buddy. Or you could force a TIE Phantom to cloak, or a ship with reload to Reload and lose its shot, or a turreted ship to Rotate so it loses its shot. That's a Hard Shut Down against many ships, as a mere action , and to get that we have to add rules text to Hondo through very unnecessary addition. This is nonsense.

Both following the most likely rules as intended and the most simple rules as written, we're led to the conclusion that Hondo is not broken. In fact if feels like a rather cleverly balanced card. There will certainly be some exploit, I'm sure, but it's decently built for self-balancing. I hope.

What i dont fully understand is, Why are they going though the effort of having him use the Coordinate specifically. Why not just say "one ship performs and action, the other gains a jam token". If 2 of the 3 steps are not applied, why bother? I feel like im missing an expected combo that works off coordination here.

On 7/31/2020 at 10:15 PM, theBitterFig said:

So what to do? What the card says. Choose two ships friendly to each other at Range 1-3 of you. That ought to be clear enough, since we've had the "friendly to each other" clarified in the epic rules. OK, pick the ships. Either two enemy, or two friendly.

What next? Jam one. Simple. Coordinate the other. OK, so how does coordinate work? Well, we're ignoring the range, and Hondo has his own way of making selections. So what's left? Only Step 3, the chosen ship performs an action. Who chooses the action? That ship chooses, at least as far as I read Step 3. No picking for your opponent, fair enough

My issue with this is.. Why does he explicitly state "ignoring range restrictions" if the range is already overridden by his ability in the first line? If it takes that line to override the range limits on both coordinate and jam, why does it then not take a specific override for the friendly ship restriction on coordinate?

18 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

My issue with this is.. Why does he explicitly state "ignoring range restrictions" if the range is already overridden by his ability in the first line? If it takes that line to override the range limits on both coordinate and jam, why does it then not take a specific override for the friendly ship restriction on coordinate?

I think the instructions on choosing the ships is sufficient.

Part of that is that Hondo utterly breaks otherwise. Either he jams without restriction, without giving back a bonus action to the opponent, or can't be used against enemies, and neither of which makes any dang sense.

22 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Why not just say "one ship performs and action, the other gains a jam token"

Because FFG thought up a faster way to say it. Coordinate one, and jam the other. They invented the terms coordinate and Jam so they don't have to spell out the effects each time on each card.

//

There doesn't have to be any trouble here.

"What's in there?"

"Only what you take with you. Your weapons... you will not need them."

4 hours ago, Lyianx said:

What i dont fully understand is, Why are they going though the effort of having him use the Coordinate specifically. Why not just say "one ship performs and action, the other gains a jam token". If 2 of the 3 steps are not applied, why bother? I feel like im missing an expected combo that works off coordination here.

One thing that immediately comes to mind is combinations with other effects that act on Coordinating or Being Coordinated. Either something already known, or something coming, could easily combine with this card. And I don't see a faction restriction, so the options are pretty wide.

• Squad Leader restricts the action choice, meaning you could choose a Talent+Crew ship with limited and relatively boring action choice.
• If you were performing a Coordinate Action with Hondo (you're not), General Hux would let you stress the targets by making their action red. Thank heaven that's not going to happen.
• Nodin Chavdri lets you get a free action even while mildly stressed, so adding Hondo lets you get free actions on Nodin while you use Hondo's ability on allies or enemies.
• Probably something interesting with Major Stridan out there.
• Epic ships have abilities that alter coordination:
  • Toryn Farr grants your coordinated buddy a lock if you already have one.
  • Comms Team is close but, like General Hux, requires a coordinate action so no go. Same with Ciena Ree .
  • Pretty sure Boosted Scanners does nothing, since we're skipping the range steps of coordination because the targets are already selected. Biohexacrypt Codes are likewise also dead in the water.
  • Oooh Suppressor is evil though, allowing you to jam an enemy ship at range 0-2 of the friendly ship you coordinated. Interesting that this card specifies coordinating a friendly ship, showing FFG was thinking ahead about coordinating enemy ships someday.
• Probably something else I missed.

IMO, FFG probably picked the Coordinate keyword deliberately so other effects, current and future, could combine with Hondo's coordination of the friendly or enemy ship.

A second thing to note is restrictions: effects that say a ship cannot be coordinated. Passive Sensors actually BLOCKS Hondo from targeting that ship for his ability. And we know from other official rulings that you cannot choose to do effects only partially -- the whole thing unwinds and you cannot do it at all if you can't complete all the parts (save for special cases like failing an action, which proceeds with costs still paid). Dalan Oberos (Kimogila) has a pretty rotten existence because FFG decided if he's already at full shields, his ability does nothing . This has since become a general rule that you can't try to do something unless you can do all of it, and since a ship that's used Passive Sensors cannot be coordinated, you can't choose that ship to coordinate with Hondo. And if you can't select a target to coordinate (because all available used Passive Sensors), then you can't use Hondo's ability at all, even though you might really want to jam one of those ships to prevent a munitions attack.

So a team of Passive Sensors Munitions Boats is untouchable by Hondo unless Hondo can manage to go before them (so put him on something Init 1).

[ -- -- ]

TL;DR Coordinate is so much more than merely its rules steps. It's also a keyword that interconnects with other effects in the game in a diverse web of potential interactions. Removing 2 of its 3 steps for execution (so it's just "perform an action") doesn't make it equivalent to simply letting the target perform an action.

And that's frick'n exciting.

So... What I'm getting from this discussion is that the intent is very clear that Hondo is meant to be able to target enemy ships, but the card lacks the direct override that would allow him to do so.

There's a strong contingent of opinions that are saying, "they'll probably change the rule to work that way." Since the card's not released yet I think that's a reasonable stance to take. If, however, FFG does not make that change or issue a clarification by the time Hondo hits the shelves I'll reconsider how much fuss it merits.

14 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

but the card lacks the direct override that would allow him to do so.

Well, some interpreters are saying they don't find Hondo's ship selection text sufficient to override the default coordinate rule. It's by no means something that everyone in here agrees with, and some of us find the card does get around the default coordinate targeting restriction. As far as I'm concerned, Hondo does not lack the override . I find Hondo's alternate selection method to be sufficient, just from the text, and without having to dip into intentions. But that's just like, my interpretation, man.

It's totally fine to find my argument unconvincing, or the argument that he lacks the override more convincing, but the take-away shouldn't be "Hondo doesn't work," but rather "Some interpretations of Hondo lead to him not working."

2 hours ago, Wazat said:

A second thing to note is restrictions: effects that say a ship cannot be coordinated. Passive Sensors actually BLOCKS Hondo from targeting that ship for his ability. And we know from other official rulings that you cannot choose to do effects only partially -- the whole thing unwinds and you cannot do it at all if you can't complete all the parts (save for special cases like failing an action, which proceeds with costs still paid).

I think it'd depend on which part of Hondo targeting a ship we're talking about.

Suppose Hondo chooses a TIE Interceptor and a Passive-Sensor-spent Gunboat. I see zero issue with Hondo coordinating the Interceptor, and Jamming the Gunboat.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I think it'd depend on which part of Hondo targeting a ship we're talking about.

Suppose Hondo chooses a TIE Interceptor and a Passive-Sensor-spent Gunboat. I see zero issue with Hondo coordinating the Interceptor, and Jamming the Gunboat.

Of course. I'm just saying if Hondo's two targets are both Passive Sensor Gunboats, he can't use his ability at all. (sorry that wasn't clear)

On 8/2/2020 at 10:37 PM, theBitterFig said:

Well, some interpreters are saying they don't find Hondo's ship selection text sufficient to override the default coordinate rule. It's by no means something that everyone in here agrees with, and some of us find the card does get around the default coordinate targeting restriction. As far as I'm concerned, Hondo does not lack the override . I find Hondo's alternate selection method to be sufficient, just from the text, and without having to dip into intentions. But that's just like, my interpretation, man.

It's totally fine to find my argument unconvincing, or the argument that he lacks the override more convincing, but the take-away shouldn't be "Hondo doesn't work," but rather "Some interpretations of Hondo lead to him not working."

I think it'd depend on which part of Hondo targeting a ship we're talking about.

Suppose Hondo chooses a TIE Interceptor and a Passive-Sensor-spent Gunboat. I see zero issue with Hondo coordinating the Interceptor, and Jamming the Gunboat.

The thing is, id *totally* be on your side here... *IF* it weren't for the fact that FFG has, in the past, come out with rulings that went completely against what was a community agreed upon interpretation. We could all sit here and agree that Hondo does indeed allow you to coordinate any ship you want. Sure! It totally makes sense, i mean, why wouldnt he as that does seem to be the intent? But then FFG can come back and say "no he cant.. when did we say that?"

Lol. Im still a bit bent about a few of their 1E rulings that went like this (namely the Kulda zero vs all crap that made her ability nearly useless, which i cant help but notice has been fixed for 2E to actually follow her original intent!.. i wonder why 🙄 )

17 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

The thing is, id *totally* be on your side here... *IF* it weren't for the fact that FFG has, in the past, come out with rulings that went completely against what was a community agreed upon interpretation. We could all sit here and agree that Hondo does indeed allow you to coordinate any ship you want. Sure! It totally makes sense, i mean, why wouldnt he as that does seem to be the intent? But then FFG can come back and say "no he cant.. when did we say that?"

If they overrule it, so it goes.

But why reject it in advance because maybe, maybe? I mean, it's worth taking a look at this, seeing if stuff really adds up, but I don't think we've turned up glaring clear problems. At most some hazy "maybes." I don't think there's enough evidence that Hondo doesn't work, not sufficient to presume FFG will rule against it, and not sufficient that we should presume such a ruling will take place.

Contrast Aleksander Kallus with Tail Gun or whatever it's called. That one feels a lot safer to presume is just an oversight that FFG will fix.

25 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Lol. Im still a bit bent about a few of their 1E rulings that went like this (namely the Kulda zero vs all crap that made her ability nearly useless, which i cant help but notice has been fixed for 2E to actually follow her original intent!.. i wonder why 🙄 )

To be sure, that has happened, and might happen again. I just don't find it convincing or compelling with relation to Hondo.