1 hour ago, FreakinUnoriginal said:

If tarot, standard, and mini are each printed separately (because they're fed into different die cutters) then you need to order in a certain ratio of X ship cards and Y upgrades (and for core sets or the Chimaera, also Z squadrons) in order to fill each box, but that could lead to ordering more of one than the other(s) than was needed. If everything is the same size (and fed into the same die cutter), then it's easier to order exactly how much you want.

Edit:

Perhaps it wasn't as big a deal when there was only one Core Set that required ordering all 3 types at they same time, but now there's the Core Set, Chimaera, and two Fleet Starters.

I doubt any one here actually knows the precise printing process used to make FFG's miniatures games... regardless, presumably yes, tarot-size ship cards, standard-size squadron/objective cards, and mini-American-size upgrade cards were printed on different printing lines. Logically, the most efficient practice would to reprint multiple Armada products at the same time -- for example, Imperial Light Cruiser, Imperial Light Carrier, Chimaera, Profundity, Hammerheads, MC30s, etc. -- and run those 6 ship cards through the tarot card printing line in succession.

I don't know if Armada is assigned only one printing line and each card run is produced consecutively, which would necessitate reconfiguring the cutting dies when the card size changed; or if Armada cards are run on multiple printing lines simultaneously, and one would be a tarot line, one would be standard size line, and probably multiple lines would be mini-American. If the latter is the case, the switch to standard size cards would probably require reconfiguring more printing lines than simply keeping the tarot and mini-American size cards.

Or, since Legion continues to use mini-American-size upgrade cards, those printing lines can focus on Legion cards -- and FFG's other games that continue to use mini-American cards, like Mansions of Madness, Arkham Horror, Eldritch Horror, not to mention all of Asmodee's games.

Oh, BTW, while looking up what games use what size cards, I happened to notice that the Asmodee Store is currently sold out of FFS Standard-size Card Sleeves. Whereas the store currently has Mini-American and Tarot card sleeves are in stock. That's a perfect example of the downside to switching to one size card format: It will cause greater demand for that size card sleeves and if FFG/Asmodee neglects to produce enough, it will cause card sleeve shortages .

Returning to my point, there will always be a greater requirement to print upgrade cards than ship, squadron, and objective cards, but as long as FFG and Asmodee continue to produce games that use non-Standard size cards, the printing factories will have to be able to accommodate them; therefore, Armada switching to all Standard-size cards will not streamline production or significantly reduce costs.

Logically, if anyway, it will increase the production cost per card because Standard size cards require more cardboard and ink per card than Mini-American size cards; and those increased costs won't be offset by the reduction of the size of Tarot-size ships cards because fewer ship cards need to be produced. That could be one explanation for why FFG/Asmodee has raised the MSRP for Clone Wars Armada expansions .

Can we all just agree that a) switching to Standard sized cards will create some difference in the cost of printing (up or down) b) FFG thought it made sense financially and for gameplay reasons, and c) the change is coming and is inevitable? Then can we let this topic die?

On 8/14/2020 at 9:06 AM, slasher956 said:

As to American Mini being the easiest to handle... I'll have to disagree from a gamer point of view - not all gamers have good fine motor skills* - and personally they are just a bit to small for me to pick up and move easily compared to the standard sized cards - there is a point where things get to small for quick and effeciant movement. So whilst I like the small cards for the space they take up on the table I've been intrested in having the upgrade cards larger since I started this game (near release). So who knows prehaps its customer feed back thats led to the change?

*over 10% of adults in the UK have various conditions that affect the motor skills, with wargaming having a higher percentage

We were talking about which are the cheapest to handle in production, not which ones are the easiest to handle for players.

10 hours ago, FreakinUnoriginal said:

I'm not sure if you're implying they'd cut, for example, tarot and mini off of one sheet (sorry if that wasn't your meaning). Custom die layouts to cut different size cards off of one sheet would be more expensive than doing separate sheets that will have one size each; additionally, uneven cutting increases the chances of something jamming or becoming misaligned.

Using one size for printing and then cutting with different-sized cutters is cheaper in the long run. Using different sheets generates additional cost the entire lifetime of a product, while different cutters are one-time expense. You need maintenance either way, so this is an expense pretty much identical in both cases.

Plus, even if you are using different sizes of sheets, you *still* need different cutters to cut out those pesky Standard/Tarot/Mini cards. The only way for this not to be the case is if each card was printed individually, which isn't realistic.

3 hours ago, bkcammack said:

Can we all just agree that a) switching to Standard sized cards will create some difference in the cost of printing (up or down) b) FFG thought it made sense financially and for gameplay reasons, and c) the change is coming and is inevitable? Then can we let this topic die?

No. Change could happen one way, it can happen the other way as well if we ask enough. Also, customer feedback is not *entirely* worthless...

5 hours ago, Petersaber said:

Change could happen one way, it can happen the other way as well if we ask enough. Also, customer feedback is not *entirely* worthless...

I know! I kept asking and emailing them to make the card sizes bigger so I could read them more easily and bam, this upgrade pack came out! I'm really excited to get the cards with bigger art and a more readable text!

8 hours ago, geek19 said:

I know! I kept asking and emailing them to make the card sizes bigger so I could read them more easily and bam, this upgrade pack came out! I'm really excited to get the cards with bigger art and a more readable text!

I assume that you're being sarcastic because side-by-side comparisons have shown that the text size is virtually the same between the Mini-American and new Standard size upgrade cards -- just like the Squadron cards. Only the card art is appreciably larger.

FFG has wasted this opportunity to objectively improve Armada's upgrade cards by making them more readable, not just for people with visual impairments, but for everyone .

If FFG had increased the text size, I wouldn't be nearly as critical about the card size change being unnecessary. But when FFG fumbles something so simple and obvious, I have to question the reasoning behind the change and suspect that it's primarily about trying to sell Upgrade Card Collections to existing Armada players -- and that the card size change was mandated by Asmodee.

22 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

, I have to question the reasoning behind the change and suspect that it's primarily about trying to sell Upgrade Card Collections to existing Armada players.

But mini size cards are not forbidden so either you don't need the card pack or you were gonna buy it no matter the size.

8 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

I assume that you're being sarcastic because side-by-side comparisons have shown that the text size is virtually the same between the Mini-American and new Standard size upgrade cards -- just like the Squadron cards. Only the card art is appreciably larger.

FFG has wasted this opportunity to objectively improve Armada's upgrade cards by making them more readable, not just for people with visual impairments, but for everyone .

If FFG had increased the text size, I wouldn't be nearly as critical about the card size change being unnecessary. But when FFG fumbles something so simple and obvious, I have to question the reasoning behind the change and suspect that it's primarily about trying to sell Upgrade Card Collections to existing Armada players -- and that the card size change was mandated by Asmodee.

The guy is just trolling and he can't stand not being the focus of attention, which upsets him, just like the fact that someone might have complaints about something he likes. Ignore him.

4 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

But mini size cards are not forbidden so either you don't need the card pack or you were gonna buy it no matter the size.

I refer you to X-Wing Second Edition, new iPhones, new cars/trucks, and the fashion industry to explain why the mere existence of something newer and "better" drives a deep-seeded compulsion in our consumer culture to own whatever that new thing is.

That's why FFG creates alt art cards and acrylic range rulers for OP prizes, and why the players who own those alt art cards and acrylic rulers always use them at public events, despite that the standard cards and rulers are perfectly fine. And it's why those Armada prizes sell for outrageous prices on eBay.

The sole purpose for those "premium" items to exist is so that consumers will desire them and want to buy them.

FFG and Asmodee know that. They're counting on it. It's as simple as that.

37 minutes ago, Petersaber said:

The guy is just trolling and he can't stand not being the focus of attention, which upsets him, just like the fact that someone might have complaints about something he likes. Ignore him.

Geek or Revearn?

37 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

I refer you to X-Wing Second Edition, new iPhones, new cars/trucks, and the fashion industry to explain why the mere existence of something newer and "better" drives a deep-seeded compulsion in our consumer culture to own whatever that new thing is.

That's why FFG creates alt art cards and acrylic range rulers for OP prizes, and why the players who own those alt art cards and acrylic rulers always use them at public events, despite that the standard cards and rulers are perfectly fine. And it's why those Armada prizes sell for outrageous prices on eBay.

The sole purpose for those "premium" items to exist is so that consumers will desire them and want to buy them.

FFG and Asmodee know that. They're counting on it. It's as simple as that.

Are you claiming that FFG make alt art cards so they sell for lots of money? Really? They dont sell them, they give them away for nearly free.

Is your soul so empty that you cant believe that sometimes people have morally healthy reasons for doing things?

The alt art cards have been about giving players opportunities to get the most useful cards without forking out on a whole expansion pack for many years now. Its not to line their pockets, its to give pack.

This thread has gone very of tangent. Peter is going to create his own mini cards, ok, thats fair enough. End of discussion.

37 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

.

The sole purpose for those "premium" items to exist is so that consumers will desire them and want to buy them.

FFG and Asmodee know that. They're counting on it. It's as simple as that.

I can't buy alt stuff to FFG.

Also, that complain could be applied to the whole Clone Wars release.

Even more, it would be applied to a mini size upgrade card pack, duh.

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Are you claiming that FFG make alt art cards so they sell for lots of money? Really? They dont sell them, they give them away for nearly free.

[emphasis mine] Do you have any idea how much tournament kits cost?

12 minutes ago, Petersaber said:

[emphasis mine] Do you have any idea how much tournament kits cost?

Less than the entry fees for a tournament

3 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Less than the entry fees for a tournament

Yeah, no. You have no clue, do you? As someone who helped organise a few tournaments with a FLGS, let me tell you - even quarterly kits aren't cheap. They're far from free, which you've claimed...

41 minutes ago, Petersaber said:

Yeah, no. You have no clue, do you? As someone who helped organise a few tournaments with a FLGS, let me tell you - even quarterly kits aren't cheap. They're far from free, which you've claimed...

$20 CAD for the majority of the Monthly Tournament Kits, which is what most things are based on given that's what the majority of stuff out there is.

Prime kit was $90. Last store champs kit was around the $60 level, but that was a long time ago, and we're still yet to see what the revamped "two times" Store Kit will be.

They are ludicrously cheap, for cost to volume, and that's why they're only sold to stores direct through distributors - the aftermarket on them *is* huge, but thats not what they want to encourage OR Validate.

Which is why the penalties for store misusing or selling them **ARE** Harsh.

Also, he claimed *nearly* Free.

I want to live a life where $20, $60 and $90 for a couple of cards are "nearly free".

3 minutes ago, Petersaber said:

I want to live a life where $20, $60 and $90 for a couple of cards are "nearly free".

You don't pay that for a couple of cards. You pay it for the whole kit. The kit is shared amongst the participants just as its price.

Hypothetically, I might have an OP kit that I acquired. It has 6 types of cards, each with 8 copies (maybe more, I can’t check since it’s in the process of being moved overseas). So that’s 48 cards. At $20/kit that’s about 42¢ per card, or $2.50/player (assuming 8 players). Every OP event I have attended has cost $15+. Assuming 8 players that’s $120 revenue for the FLGS, ($100 profit) plus drink, snack, and product sales. Even at $10/participant your break-even point is 2 players, which is literally the minimum amount needed to play. A $90 primes kit only needs 6 players paying $15 to break even. For the FLGS the OP kits are “nearly free” because even a small tourney will usually have at least 6 players, easily covering the cost of the kits.

Those prize cards can make a big difference in player turnout, so even if it draws in only 2 more players, the FLGS is ahead.

Most of us are normal players, not FLGS. Either way, this is offtopic. Fancy cards are not all that relevant to the core product.

On 8/16/2020 at 5:24 AM, Petersaber said:

[emphasis mine] Do you have any idea how much tournament kits cost?

6 hours ago, Petersaber said:

Most of us are normal players, not FLGS. Either way, this is offtopic. Fancy cards are not all that relevant to the core product.

I could swear we had those goalposts right around here SOMEWHERE? Anyone know where they moved to?

On 8/16/2020 at 3:38 AM, Ginkapo said:

Are you claiming that FFG make alt art cards so they sell for lots of money? Really? They dont sell them, they give them away for nearly free.

Is your soul so empty that you cant believe that sometimes people have morally healthy reasons for doing things?

The alt art cards have been about giving players opportunities to get the most useful cards without forking out on a whole expansion pack for many years now. Its not to line their pockets, its to give pack.

This thread has gone very of tangent. Peter is going to create his own mini cards, ok, thats fair enough. End of discussion.

I'm not saying that FFG only creates the alt art cards to feed the eBay marketplace, but the end result is the same.

Unsurprisingly given your limited capacity for understanding and blatant bias against me, you completely missed my point -- or deliberately chose to ignore it and desperately tried to deflect.

My point was that Armada players like to be seen in public events using alt art cards, acrylic range rulers, and other tournament prizes because they are perceived as status symbols.

I'm saying that the new updated and upsized Armada upgrade cards will be perceived in the same way: Those cards are newer and "better", therefore Armada players will desire them and buy them, even if they don't "need" to replace their old Mini-American size Armada upgrade cards. Furthermore, some Armada players might not want to be seen using the old upgrade cards because other people might perceive them as not being able to "afford" the new cards, so they'll buy the Upgrade Card Collection to avoid that negative perception.

It's human nature, and FFG/Asmodee are exploiting that.

You are embarrassingly naïve if you think big soulless corporations are above exploiting human weaknesses for profit; i.e. the alcohol, tobacco, and gambling industries. That's the primary functions of marketing and advertising: To design a product that appeals to consumers and trick them into wanting it.

There are also pragmatic reasons: An Armada veteran could play against a new Clone Wars player, and the new player might be confused at the sight of the veteran's smaller cards and ask why they're different. The veteran will have to explain that they own the old upgrade cards, and acknowledge that some of them are out-of-date in terms of wording and points cost. That could cause confusion and misunderstandings, provoke disputes between players, and cause serious problems for competitive play.

I wouldn't be surprised if when OP events resume in the future, new rules will mandate that all participants must use the updated upgrade cards to prevent potential disputes.

That's why I'm confident in my prediction that all active Armada players will choose to convert to the new standard-size upgrade cards within a year of the Upgrade Card Collection's release. I believe that Asmodee is banking on that.

26 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

.

That's why I'm confident in my prediction that all active Armada players will choose to convert to the new standard-size upgrade cards within a year of the Upgrade Card Collection's release. I believe that Asmodee is banking on that.

You might be right. I'm confident too about non of your reasons being the reason behind that.

27 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

.

My point was that Armada players like to be seen in public events using alt art cards, acrylic range rulers, and other tournament prizes because they are perceived as status symbols.

That might be your case, not mine. You have an alarming tendency to speak for other people.

29 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

.

I'm saying that the new updated and upsized Armada upgrade cards will be perceived in the same way: Those cards are newer and "better", therefore Armada players will desire them and buy them, even if they don't "need" to replace their old Mini-American size Armada upgrade cards. Furthermore, some Armada players might not want to be seen using the old upgrade cards because other people might perceive them as not being able to "afford" the new cards, so they'll buy the Upgrade Card Collection to avoid that negative perception.

So Armada a players want to be seen with cards that they have to earn on tournaments cause they're status symbols and also want to be seen with cards that everyone may get for 25$. If that's true European players are creme de la creme as we pay 25€. UK mates are just gods we cannot look to the eyes.

To me this seen a bit random. I can buy people playing alt stuff to say "I'm good", I don't see anyone buying the upgrade card to say "I'm rich". I mean, what's the point? He is already playing with 100+ $ toys.

36 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

.

It's human nature, and FFG/Asmodee are exploiting that.

Either it isn't or I'm not human.

37 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

You are embarrassingly naïve if you think big soulless corporations are above exploiting human weaknesses for profit; i.e. the alcohol, tobacco, and gambling industries. That's the primary functions of marketing and advertising: To design a product that appeals to consumers and trick them into wanting it.

I might agree on some points about this topic and disagree on others I guess, but this paragraph is just propaganda.

42 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

There are also pragmatic reasons: An Armada veteran could play against a new Clone Wars player, and the new player might be confused at the sight of the veteran's smaller cards and ask why they're different. The veteran will have to explain that they own the old upgrade cards, and acknowledge that some of them are out-of-date in terms of wording and points cost. That could cause confusion and misunderstandings, provoke disputes between players, and cause serious problems for competitive play.

I wouldn't be surprised if when OP events resume in the future, new rules will mandate that all participants must use the updated upgrade cards to prevent potential disputes.

As pragmatic as unreal. We already live with cards that do different things that they say and it's not a big deal. You wanna play competitive? You better read the current FAQ and tournament regulations. Sure, a new player with old stuff or an old player out of date might face some issues but as said, at competitive level, there is some work to do that's requested to players. They have to know what have changed. If the new cards are requested eventually I don't know, but if that gonna happen I don't see the point of not telling it before the release. They're getting sales, warning about it is gonna get more sales if anything, besides another thread complaining about it. On the other hand the percentage of modified cards is not big and some are getting just a little rework like Thrawn and other just a point adjustment or corrections we are already aware of. The first doesn't change the card at all, the second is a problem you should solve at home, while building the fleet and you have all the time to check the current version of the card and the third just say something you already should know cause you had to read the FAQ to participate. So yes, we might face a bit of confusion at the beginning but I wouldn't say it would reach the level of a problem.

But whatever, it's not like there is too much to say about this.

I know why I'm gonna buy it and I'm shocked about the reasons why you're gonna buy it.

It's an unexpected change, even inconvenient to me, but nothing terrible. It bothers me cause I just got some nice binders two months ago but it's not a bad change per se in the long term: easier to get sleeves and cheaper, easier storage, bigger art and if I manage to design my own standard size ship cards I might bring all my collection in the same place.

2 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

But whatever, it's not like there is too much to say about this.

I know why I'm gonna buy it and I'm shocked about the reasons why you're gonna buy it.

It's an unexpected change, even inconvenient to me, but nothing terrible. It bothers me cause I just got some nice binders two months ago but it's not a bad change per se in the long term: easier to get sleeves and cheaper, easier storage, bigger art and if I manage to design my own standard size ship cards I might bring all my collection in the same place.

Hey everyone, I'm confused: is this post from ovinomamc3r considered off-topic for this thread because it's thoughtful and well-reasoned? Just curious. I noticed some other courteous posts too, and so I'm just kinda confused by it in the middle of all the flaming...

No, it’s likely that Ovi just blocks people like I do, so every thread is full of reasonable and intelligent people that keep quoting non-existent posters for some reason.