Can I have a heavy weapon upgrade that has the Leader ability, plus a personnel upgrade with the Leader ability?
Which of these leaders takes precedence if both are added to a unit? Do I choose?
If a multi-wound model that is the leader of a unit is killed (due to being the only model visible etc.), do they replace a normal model in the unit just like ordinary unit leaders would?
Much of these questions won't have answers until the next RRG comes out.
From what I see,
1. Yes you can
2. I guess you can choose
3. According to the rules reference yes
22 hours ago, syrath said:Much of these questions won't have answers until the next RRG comes out.
If then. Armament wasn't a weapon upgrade for quite awhile, and C3P0 can't be returned to R2's unit per the wording on Repair. Still.
As to the actual topic:
While the first two are an interesting set of interactions (that hopefully the playtesters caught), the third one I don't think we should expect to see a change in the current rules really. We can already have the situation if a multihealth leader taking the place of another member of the squad (albeit in multihealth units). Why should this situation be handled any differently?
Edited by Caimheul1313I would like to piggyback on this topic to add two questions:
1. Do the "Courage of the unit is increased by 1" stack? My guess would be yes.
2. If one of the leaders added is killed, does the unit (for example) lose that courage point?
On 7/19/2020 at 9:50 AM, Qwar said:I would like to piggyback on this topic to add two questions:
1. Do the "Courage of the unit is increased by 1" stack? My guess would be yes.
2. If one of the leaders added is killed, does the unit (for example) lose that courage point?
1) Dunno yet, RRG/FAQ could quite easily rule that only one Leader per unit.
2) IF you could take two leaders, then no. Do you lose the comms upgrade slot (and upgrade) when the comms trooper is defeated? So by that logic, any change to the unit's statline should persist.
Edit: In light of later emailed responses from the Dev, you would lose the courage value. Special rules added with a model are lost with that model, upgrades taken in a slot added by the model are not due to a corner case.
Edited by Caimheul131315 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:1) Dunno yet, RRG/FAQ could quite easily rule that only one Leader per unit.
2) IF you could take two leaders, then no. Do you lose the comms upgrade slot (and upgrade) when the comms trooper is defeated? So by that logic, any change to the unit's statline should persist.
Right. By the same logic, I assume you can keep using Coordinate: Corps trooper even if Gideon is dead?
22 minutes ago, Qwar said:Right. By the same logic, I assume you can keep using Coordinate: Corps trooper even if Gideon is dead?
So long as the unit isn't removed, I suppose so.
I wouldn't be surprised to see an update that made it so you could only have one upgrade with Leader added to a unit.
One way or another, some kind of FAQ or Update to RRG will hopefully address the issue. Most of the oversights have been relatively minor (Armament and Crew not being listed as Weapon upgrades when they were first added, and the inability RAW to bring C3-P0 back with Repair), but this seems like a more extreme conflict.
16 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:2) IF you could take two leaders, then no. Do you lose the comms upgrade slot (and upgrade) when the comms trooper is defeated? So by that logic, any change to the unit's statline should persist.
To me it's not the same logic. You don't lose the comms upgrade because what the Comms specialist adds only matters while building the army. But if you lose a mini that was adding some keyword or somethin else that is not used only for army building, I'd say that you lose that abbilities, as you lose a heavy weapon when that mini is defeated.
Either way, an official clarification is needed on that matter as the rules are not very specific on that topic.
Edited by Lemmiwinks861 hour ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:To me it's not the same logic. You don't lose the comms upgrade because what the Comms specialist adds only matters while building the army. But if you lose a mini that was adding some keyword or somethin else that is not used only for army building, I'd say that you lose that abbilities, as you lose a heavy weapon when that mini is defeated.
Either way, an official clarification is needed on that matter as the rules are not very specific on that topic.
The heavy weapon is specifically tied to the weapon on the model, per the rules in RRG concerning upgrades. Nothing I can find specifies that any special rules from that upgrade are lost when that model is removed.
Quote• Some upgrade cards feature the heavy weapon () or personnel () icons; these are trooper upgrades.
» Trooper upgrades add specific trooper minis to a unit, represented by unique sculpts to easily identify them. These minis always share the defense value, wound threshold, and weapons of the unit card they are equipped to, but may have an additional weapon of their own.
So the heavy isn't even a good comparison due to the heavy weapons being specified. The best example would be the unit Specialists. Is there anything in the RRG or the FAQ that specifies you cannot take the card action if the Specialist model is removed? I can't find anything requiring the unit, just that you can use actions from your upgrades. The specialist added both a model and a card action to the unit, nothing in the rules ties the special rule to the model.
I'll probably send the question about specialists into FFG, it is the type of rule that could use clarification, since I could see either interpretation being intended.
25 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:The heavy weapon is specifically tied to the weapon on the model, per the rules in RRG concerning upgrades. Nothing I can find specifies that any special rules from that upgrade are lost when that model is removed.
So the heavy isn't even a good comparison due to the heavy weapons being specified. The best example would be the unit Specialists. Is there anything in the RRG or the FAQ that specifies you cannot take the card action if the Specialist model is removed? I can't find anything requiring the unit, just that you can use actions from your upgrades. The specialist added both a model and a card action to the unit, nothing in the rules ties the special rule to the model.
I'll probably send the question about specialists into FFG, it is the type of rule that could use clarification, since I could see either interpretation being intended.
This could also apply to medics and repair models (though they would need to be terrain scoped for them to be removed before other models).
Personally, I feel that the unit should lose access to any non-upgrade slot abilities granted by specific models, but until we get a clarification I don't think they do.
2 hours ago, Lochlan said:This could also apply to medics and repair models (though they would need to be terrain scoped for them to be removed before other models).
Personally, I feel that the unit should lose access to any non-upgrade slot abilities granted by specific models, but until we get a clarification I don't think they do.
I agree that the unit losing the ability does make sense, but it seems "odd" to me that the Comms upgrade would stay while the card abilities stop. The reason being that the "theming" of the comms technician carrying the comms upgrade into battle issort of a mid ground between the way Heavy and Personnel upgrades work. If heavy weapons can't be picked up by another member of a non-Strike Team unit, why can the radio? I know it's a game, not a simulation, and therefore there are a number of abstractions, but still.
18 hours ago, Lochlan said:This could also apply to medics and repair models (though they would need to be terrain scoped for them to be removed before other models).
Personally, I feel that the unit should lose access to any non-upgrade slot abilities granted by specific models, but until we get a clarification I don't think they do.
That's... Definitely something that should be clarified, yes. I've been playing wioth two medics in most of my lists and never thought about this. It's prioritary to get a clarification now then, this stuff happens half of my games.
2 hours ago, Qwar said:That's... Definitely something that should be clarified, yes. I've been playing wioth two medics in most of my lists and never thought about this. It's prioritary to get a clarification now then, this stuff happens half of my games.
Here's the link to ask FFG: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/ if you get a response please post at least the text of it up here (I recommend obscuring your email address no matter how you post it).
I know people in my local group have been playing the ability to do the Repair/Heal action as model specific but reading the rules that isn't specified anywhere. The Upgrade rules don't mention if taking the action requires the model that was added, and the Repair/Heal keywords are "unit" keywords, no mention of a specific model. So even if the unit is down to just the leader, they can still Repair/Heal per RAW. That may even be intended, but it is hard to know for sure.
Not sure if someone mentioned earlier but I do know the comms upgrade covers you for the unit so losing the figure doesn't lose you the comms upgrade however I think after looking at this again that many people are playing medics wrong as the rules never make mention of the miniature itself, only that a UNIT with the treat keyword may heal another mini, not once during the rules description does it make mention of the mini that provides the keyword.
If this interpretation is correct, scoping out the medic or droids will actually benefit the defender since you remove a non-combatant and leave the offense and effectiveness of the unit untouched.
On 7/21/2020 at 2:20 PM, Caimheul1313 said:Here's the link to ask FFG: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/ if you get a response please post at least the text of it up here (I recommend obscuring your email address no matter how you post it).
I know people in my local group have been playing the ability to do the Repair/Heal action as model specific but reading the rules that isn't specified anywhere. The Upgrade rules don't mention if taking the action requires the model that was added, and the Repair/Heal keywords are "unit" keywords, no mention of a specific model. So even if the unit is down to just the leader, they can still Repair/Heal per RAW. That may even be intended, but it is hard to know for sure.
Done. Will report when I get an answer, tho seeing how I waited a whole week for a moderator to approve my first post, I'm not very optimistic.
Just now, Qwar said:Done. Will report when I get an answer, tho seeing how I waited a whole week for a moderator to approve my first post, I'm not very optimistic.
Yeah, I think right now everything is a bit disrupted, but you can always submit it again later this year, or the answer might be in the next RRG (HAHA).
I emailed a few months ago about Repair being unable to restore C3-P0 to R2-D2's unit, and the response indicated that Repair (and I think Heal) are due for a significant re-write in an upcoming RRG. No telling if that would also affect this reading of the rules thought, I didn't catch this wording of the rules since I wasn't using Medics or Astromechs in my lists. Your safest bet might be to talk with your opponent about it before the game to see how they interpret the rule.
2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:Yeah, I think right now everything is a bit disrupted, but you can always submit it again later this year, or the answer might be in the next RRG (HAHA).
I emailed a few months ago about Repair being unable to restore C3-P0 to R2-D2's unit, and the response indicated that Repair (and I think Heal) are due for a significant re-write in an upcoming RRG. No telling if that would also affect this reading of the rules thought, I didn't catch this wording of the rules since I wasn't using Medics or Astromechs in my lists. Your safest bet might be to talk with your opponent about it before the game to see how they interpret the rule.
This was fast. We have a ruling:
Q: Good afternoon, Rules specify that only the mini added by an Upgrade Card can use the weapon profile included in the card. Sometimes the Upgrade card has other effects, such as "the unit's courage is increased by one", or the ability to Repair. This ability, according to the rules, is added to the unit, not the mini itself. Nowhere in the RRG is established that a unit dying makes its Upgrade card invalid. So the question is: Can, for example, a unit with a medic upgrade card continue using the Treat ability once the Medic mini has been defeated? Thanks.
A: Hi Qwar,
If a mini added to a unit by an Upgrade card is defeated, the unit loses access to all the special rules that mini provided. In your example, a unit with the medic upgrade card loses the Treat ability once the medic mini has been defeated.
1 minute ago, Qwar said:This was fast. We have a ruling:
Q: Good afternoon, Rules specify that only the mini added by an Upgrade Card can use the weapon profile included in the card. Sometimes the Upgrade card has other effects, such as "the unit's courage is increased by one", or the ability to Repair. This ability, according to the rules, is added to the unit, not the mini itself. Nowhere in the RRG is established that a unit dying makes its Upgrade card invalid. So the question is: Can, for example, a unit with a medic upgrade card continue using the Treat ability once the Medic mini has been defeated? Thanks.
A: Hi Qwar,
If a mini added to a unit by an Upgrade card is defeated, the unit loses access to all the special rules that mini provided. In your example, a unit with the medic upgrade card loses the Treat ability once the medic mini has been defeated.
I have noticed it is either fast, or not at all.
This ruling makes sense, but does mean that the cards that add upgrade slots are interesting... Per this ruling, you lose the upgrade slot, but keep the upgrade (since upgrade slots only matter for list creation)... Hmm.
So what I posted above seems pretty clear-cut: If you lose a mini that provides your unit with 1 extra courage, the unit loses that courage increase (assuming we are ever able to equip two of those on the same unit). Same for Coordinate: Troopers, etc.
I suppose in case of a Comms Officer, the added rule reads as "You can equip a Comms upgrade". The crux then, is to define "equip". Depending on if it's the action of putting on oneself, or if it is that of carrying the stuff. I've tried to request clarification on this by answering the mail, we'll see how that goes.
I've just got reply to that too! Our lucky day.
Q: Thanks a lot Alex, but if I may, this opens up another question: If the dead mini is a Comms Officer, is the Comms upgrade also lost?
A: No, because the Comms Technician adds an upgrade icon during Army Building, allowing you to equip a Comms Upgrade. Once that upgrade is equipped, it doesn’t matter if the Comms Tech is defeated and the icon is lost, because that upgrade icon has no effect on the game after Army Building. It’s a bit of a strange corner case, but there you have it!
Hey, at least he admits it is a "strange corner case," but it makes a certain amount of sense.
Thanks
@Qwar
for taking the time to ask the questions.