Hello, as I said in another thread I am new to the Jedi rules, as I never had one on my table. Here come another problem for me with the reflect talent. For me, when a Jedi reflect a blaster shot, there is no difference between blaster shots. The problem is for exemple between a standard blaster shot wich is 6 damage (so minimum 7 with one success) and a Droideka built-in blaster wich is damage 12 (so minimum 13 with one success)...

According my Starwars experience, and the first movie, Anakin and Ben had no more issue deflecting the Droideka shots than any other blaster shots... The problem is that all is about damage. This talent is less and less usefull as the opposent has a bigger gun. This will for sure push players or Npc to use bigger guns against Jedi.

First scene of The Phantom Menace. As from Rise of the Separatist, Ben has Improved Reflect 4, wich allow him to reduce damage by 6... even with the minimum damage of the Droideka (13) and perfect lightsaber movements we can see in the movie (lol) that's 7 damage as a minimum. Still around 2 after soak reduction. It just point me right as I write this that even a Jedi will still be soak dependent, and thus will search to boost soak with big armors as well because of the Reflect mechanic

So my question is, any one has ever think about a rule for all or nothing deflect like we see in the movies? and not just a nosense damage reduction that I cannot explain to my players. ? Thanks

edit: I think I will just add the Deflect talent level as the Adversary talent. You have deflect 4 ? you upgrade 4 times the difficulty for blasters to shoot you.. less mechanics

1 hour ago, Rosco74 said:

edit: I think I will just add the Deflect talent level as the Adversary talent. You have deflect 4 ? you upgrade 4 times the difficulty for blasters to shoot you.. less mechanics

This is a bit much.

Your point is well taken, and I had this issue as well when I first started out, but a lot of it comes down to narrative and how you describe the situation. I had a pretty good (well, in my opinion) post on this in the old Armor House Rule thread (which I don't really suggest you read), so here's that again, with the link if you want more context and responses:

I think the main issue with the lightsabers is that they are narratively kinda broken given what we see them do on screen. The lightsaber profile from EotE and AoR is, in my opinion, the best representation of lightsabers, but they still have their drawbacks. The thing is, there is no good way to balance them mechanically and yet still represent what we see on screen. I have never seen lightsabers done well in a game. I haven't played a ton of Star Wars games, but I've watched a lot. One of the big reasons I gave up on watching KOTOR and SWTOR game-movies (I never did like the timeperiod either, but hey. It's Star Wars. I watched it anyway.) was because I couldn't stand the fight scenes (gameplay, not cutscenes) where they tagged each other with lightsabers approximately 57 times every single combat.

In the movies, if you get hit with a lightsaber, you're down. You don't always lose a limb (Obi-Wan in AotC, everybody who got stabbed in the gut, etc.), but you're down. As for Reflect, I can accept it somewhat for the idea of you deflect some of the blasts, but others get through. Again, there is just not a good way to balance it and yet stay true to what we see on screen. Then it is left to the narration.

I'd say that the best way to narrate Reflect is as deflecting all of the bolts, until you are incapacitated or you take a certain amount of wounds, then you narrate one getting through. An example of this in action would be with Ki-Adi Mundi in Episode 3. He deflected several blasts, and then went down. I'd say that was using Reflect, then the bleed-over exceeded his WT and it was narrated as the hail of bolts piercing his defenses.

Say for example, you've got Reflect 2 and Soak 4 (8 damage reduction). You are taking shots from a blaster rifle with 1 success. You narrate the first three attacks as being fully deflected, but you've taken 6 wounds. You then narrate the next attack as having a lucky shot that got through and hit you pretty hard, and even though it only deals 2 damage, it is as if it had hit you for 8 narratively. Coincidentally, you've eaten up just about all of your strain by now (technically you've only used 9 Strain, but add in strain from other abilities and second maneuvers, just to be generous) and your defenses are down. Next shot hits you for 6 wounds past Soak, potentially dropping you. This would be the Ki-Adi Mundi way of narrating it.

Okay, so here's where I see your hang-up coming from on this.

You're trying to make things simulationist, but this game is not a tactical/simulationist system, but instead is a narrative-focused one (albeit one with a fair amount of crunch under the hood in contrast to other narrative-centric systems0

Another thing to remember is that a combat round in this game doesn't default to only a few seconds like it does in many other RPGs. Classic example is the final battle in episode 114 of Critical Role's first campaign; in-game the combat took about a minute due to D&D5e using 6 seconds for a combat round, but in reality that fight took over 6 hours for them to run (not helped by these being 20th level PCs with a whole slew of abilities, especially with regards to the spellcasters). So in Star Wars, a fight sequence that on screen takes several minutes may in this system only be one or two rounds, with the bad guys making a single combat check each to reflect the number of attacks they're making against the heroes.

Something else to bear in mind is that Obi-Wan and Anakin (and frankly almost all the lead character Jedi in the franchise) have the benefit of industrial strength plot armor; they don't get injured or hurt until the plot requires them to. PCs in this system don't have the benefit of such powerful plot armor, and combat was intentionally designed to be dangerous, so that the PCs never feel like they're truly invincible, and things like lowly stormtroopers or battle droids can continue to be a threat to the PCs from when the campaign starts to when it ends.

WotC's Saga Edition had a Deflect talent was "all or nothing" (at least against regular single-target attacks), and combined with how the skill system worked in that game, it could make a Jedi character almost immune to being damaged, especially if they picked up talents to mitigate the escalating penalty for using the Deflect talent more than once per round. Implementing an "all or nothing" aspect to Reflect in this system makes the talent incredibly broken, because it undercuts the fundamental design intent of combat being dangerous for the PCs. Also remember that in Episode 1, while Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had little trouble dispatching the rank-and-file battle droids, they both high-tailed it out after the droideka's rolled in and unleashed their initial volley of fire.

Additionally, unless your campaign is taking place in a truly lawless region of space, then toting around high-damage weapons is going to draw attention from the authorities, especially if your PCs are hauling around heavy blaster rifles or light repeating blaster rifles. By the same token, if a Jedi PC in your game draws the ire of a group of stormtroopers and they aim their blaster rifles in that PCs direction, then they should be sweating. After all, Order 66 shows/relates countless instances of Knights and Masters being gunned down by clone troopers in spite of their vaunted Force abilities.

Right, thanks to your replies I think I got your point of view. First the lenght of the round where a single roll might be several shots, and the talent himself that just mitigate some of the blasts...

But sorry, this is definatly not so obvious at first glance. I will maybe make some tests before really starting to mess with lightsaber users. I will need to find a way to explain that to my players as best as you both did hehe, because for now the only discussion was something similar to my original post : "why a droideka built-in blaster is harder to deflect than a standard pistol blaster ..."

Imagine me, what I was supposed to say lol. Anyway thanks again guyz

9 hours ago, Rosco74 said:

"why a droideka built-in blaster is harder to deflect than a standard pistol blaster ..."

Imagine me, what I was supposed to say lol. Anyway thanks again guyz

Here's a possible explanation. Even though we don't see it (because mostly in the movies we're seeing the best of the best), bigger blasters shot bolts that have more "momentum," as it were. So there's more "recoil," the deflection of the bolt causes the lightsaber blade to shake a bit.

Droideka bolts are harder to deflect because the stronger shots disrupt the flow of your movements more, as you're having to fight against the blow-back of those stronger bolts pounding into your blade over and over, making holes in your defenses more likely to appear.

Like I said, we don't really see it in the movies, but it makes sense. Energy carries momentum (Einstein's full equation is E ² = (mc ² ) ² + (pc) ² , which explains why light has momentum despite having no mass), and many descriptions of blaster bolts have them being highly energized gas, which would have even more momentum due to having actual mass. Some recoil against the lightsaber blade is to be expected, and bigger bolts have more gas at higher energies, which means more recoil mucking up your defensive movements.

But the big thing, as Donovan said, is that it's a narrative game (emphasis on game). Jedi can't deflect all shots automatically for as long as their strain holds out because it'd be broken. They needed to find a way to balance it, and basing Reflect off the amount of damage was the best way.

Another element to bear in mind with Reflect is that the defender still gets to apply their soak value to whatever damage is left over. I'm not sure if this is the case with the OP, but I have on occasion seen novice GMs operate under the mistaken impression that if Parry or Reflect gets used against an attack, the defender doesn't get to apply their soak, in effect making it a "one or the other" situation when the truth is that both apply. The only time a defender's soak value wouldn't apply is if the attack has enough ranks of Pierce or Breach to reduce that soak to zero (primary instance would be lightsabers, where if you don't have Parry or armor with the Cortosis quality, you're getting walloped).

So that said, while I don't have Obi-Wan's RotS stats in front of me, I'd wager he's got a pretty solid soak value (probably a 4), meaning with 4 ranks of Reflect, that's 11 points of damage that he's not taking from a ranged attack. Add in ranks of Adversary (since he's an NPC he gets to use that talent) as well as one (possibly more) points of ranged defense, and the likeliness of a droideka firing on him with autofire and/or two-weapon combat being able to score any sort of meaningful hit is pretty slim. But since Obi-Wan is what I like to refer to as one of the Jedi's "all-stars" (i.e. a named character with a central role to the narrative) it's perfectly fine that he's far more capable of negating if not outright avoiding getting hit in the first place. I'd be willing to wager that the majority of the "attacks" that we see Obi-Wan (and other Jedi) using their lightsabers to "deflect" are instead just combat checks that failed to score any successes, and were narrated as the targeted Jedi using their lightsaber to "deflect" the incoming attack.

Might also be worth noting that taking wounds in this game doesn't necessarily mean that the target is taking lasting physical damage. If anything, wounds in this game are more akin to some combination of bumps, nicks, scratches, minor bruises, and/or muscle fatigue from turning a "hit" into a "near miss," and is why a stimpack (essentially a shot of lesser medical agents and/or adrenaline) is able to quickly heal 'wounds.' Lasting physical damage is instead represented by suffering critical injuries, as those don't simply "go away" and require more extensive treatment to deal with. So in that respect, Obi-Wan may indeed by taking a few wounds from being shot at by droidekas, but since it's a relatively trivial amount of damage, on-screen it doesn't look like he's been hit at all.

Greetings!

In this post there are a few good reflexions. Here's my own method too.

"In our games we made a change to Reflect (not to Parry). It gives Failures instead damage reduction, the rest of Reflect mechanics are the same.

You can't Reflect a lot of time (unless you have some Talents or recover Strain of course)."

Take care!

23 hours ago, Rosco74 said:

Right, thanks to your replies I think I got your point of view. First the lenght of the round where a single roll might be several shots, and the talent himself that just mitigate some of the blasts...

But sorry, this is definatly not so obvious at first glance. I will maybe make some tests before really starting to mess with lightsaber users. I will need to find a way to explain that to my players as best as you both did hehe, because for now the only discussion was something similar to my original post : "why a droideka built-in blaster is harder to deflect than a standard pistol blaster ..."

Imagine me, what I was supposed to say lol. Anyway thanks again guyz

each die roll is not for a single blaster shot. it is for many many shots. more so for a Droideka. so when you reflect half the damage you reflacted half the shots. not have the single bolt.

I know the soak applies after, wich is even worst... you are supposed to deflect that blaster shot and at the end, the better your armor and brawn, the better you deflect... I usually don't see Jedis like Ashoka or Luke with big brawn and heavy armors.... This is even more stupid when you think about it but yeah ... I will try few games first to have a glance at the mechanic. To be honest, you want to be a bad *** Jedi, just max your Brawn anf get the better armor you can, the stronger you are the better you deflect shots ..

Brawn is used for Lightsaber checks (untill you learn a Form), your soak (your Deflect and Parry aptitude as a result), your health points, and so much more

5 hours ago, Rosco74 said:

I know the soak applies after, wich is even worst... you are supposed to deflect that blaster shot and at the end, the better your armor and brawn, the better you deflect... I usually don't see Jedis like Ashoka or Luke with big brawn and heavy armors.... This is even more stupid when you think about it but yeah ... I will try few games first to have a glance at the mechanic. To be honest, you want to be a bad *** Jedi, just max your Brawn anf get the better armor you can, the stronger you are the better you deflect shots ..

Brawn is used for Lightsaber checks (untill you learn a Form), your soak (your Deflect and Parry aptitude as a result), your health points, and so much more

You have it backwards. your reflect happens before your soak.

@Rosco74 , if I may respectfully weigh in, I think the part that you are forgetting is that this is a game at the end of the day.

The purpose of the talent is to provide a way for Jedi, who are predominantly close combat participants to better deal with ranged attackers and to offer some kind of representation of the traditional lightsabers reflecting blaster bolts that we see in the films.

However, this is a game, it has to balanced. The issue with older RPG systems from experience was it was "go Jedi or go home" because Jedi were so unbelievably powerful compared to non-Force users. This created a massive problem because if you are in a party with a force user and non force users, the force users could do more and overshadow their non-force users. Thankfully the FFG RPG has actually done a brilliant job of keeping non-force users and force users equally effective at the same XP amount due to the idea that Jedi have to spread their XP around more than a non-force user.

If the Jedi could simply reflect everything and take no damage, even if it cost them strain, it would be insanely powerful. It effectively becomes a "I have X rounds to kill everything before I take damage" and if every PC is a Force user with a lightsaber, good look shoving ANY kind of damage through given the potency of Lightsabers.

There are ways you could houserule it, like @Josep Maria suggested, but I'd highly recommend against having it add failure to the roll because again that is changing it from damage mitigation to simply increasing the chance the attack is outright ignored. Thematic, but I'd argue not really balance.

Soak, Reflect, Wounds etc, they're all mechanical aspects that create the game part of this experience. Even though some of them compared to the movies doesn't make sense. Wounds? We never really see anyone wounded; if you get shot with a blaster you are usually down for the count let alone a saber. The closest we got in the OT from memory was Leia on Endor and Luke on Bespin, but Luke clearly go the maimed critical as he lost his hand. Leia took one shot and she was more or less down, but was able to make at least two shots so it can be argued she might have been critically injured, but not over her wound threshold.

However, these are 'gamey' concepts that have to exsist to hold up the game. Damage resistance is a staple of most RPGs and thus soak is introduced to represent armor reducing impact which is something armor is apparently able to do in Star Wars. The plastoid armor of Stormtroopers is apparently made that way to absorb and dissipate energy from blaster shots, thus why in Rebels they can be seem to be knocked down from shots but not killed, and also could even explain why kinetic based weapons like spears and arrows was so effective against stormtroopers. The game itself isn't perfect, as has been stated numerous times, vehicle combat can be clunky, I am not saying the system is perfect...but when it comes to Jedi I feel it more than does what it needs to do.

At the end of the day, I'd rather this be a good game, than a terrible game that was able to 100% simulate the Star Wars universe. That's the key, this is a game, not a simulation. The game should help you emulate the Star Wars universe.

Something that took a lot of my players time to adjust to was The Clone Wars and Prequel representation of Jedi compared to the game. In the media Jedi are shown to be able to do incredibly awesome things., things that you can eventually learn to do in the RPG but it takes a lot and I mean a LOT of XP to get to that stage, and rightly so, because you can't have Force Users overshadow the non-force users. There were also a few D&D players in my group who had to learn to break the kill > loot > sell mentality because that's not really the point of this game.

I feel in this situation you must unlearn what you have learned and temper your expectations.

9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

You have it backwards. your reflect happens before your soak.

I know I know but the result is exactly the same... the formula for deflect is just : (2 + ranks in Deflect + Soak) wich is why I say the better your Brawn the better you deflect...

To Ebak, thanks for this novel, but you didn't get the point, you have fun like you want with your players but me and my players want to play Starwars, not a game "balanced" where a Stormtrooper" can one shot a Jedi. I don't care about balance ! We want **** Jedis without 2 left hands that can reflect a **** blaster shot. We didn't even start our campaign that players just loled at the Reflect mechanic, and they just basically made the same conclusion than me, just max your Brawn. Parry could work as it is but not Deflect. I have to wait for the first game untill I find a solution, I am still testing solo

5 minutes ago, Rosco74 said:

I know I know but the result is exactly the same... the formula for deflect is just : (2 + ranks in Deflect + Soak) wich is why I say the better your Brawn the better you deflect...

To Ebak, thanks for this novel, but you didn't get the point, you have fun like you want with your players but me and my players want to play Starwars, not a game "balanced" where a Stormtrooper" can one shot a Jedi. I don't care about balance ! We want **** Jedis without 2 left hands that can reflect a **** blaster shot. We didn't even start our campaign that players just loled at the Reflect mechanic, and they just basically made the same conclusion than me, just max your Brawn. Parry could work as it is but not Deflect. I have to wait for the first game untill I find a solution, I am still testing solo

Your brawn plays no part in what you reflect. Don't equate Soak with deflected damage. Reflect happens first.

As a quick exemple, those 2 characters have the exact same training and mastery of the lightsaber combat : 2 ranks in lightsaber and 2 levels of Deflect talent. The first one is a human farmer 18 years old from a desert planet. Obviously his Brawn is 2 and he wears little armor (+1). Soak 3.

The second one is a Whiphid (Keeping the Peace) with Brawn 5 and a modified Jedi armored robe (+3). Soak 8.

Human get 10 + Brawn WT so the farmer will have 12, the Whiphid 12 + Brawn so 17. Now they take the same exact shot wich deal 19 damages (Droideka shot with 5 success). The farmer use deflect and reduce the damage to 12 (2 + 2lvl of Deflect + Soak3) and just fall to the ground as he didn't deflect a single shot...his wound threshold of 12 is reached in a single round... The Whiphid use deflect and reduce the damage to 7 (2 + 2lvl of Deflect + Soak8) and is barely scratched as his wound threshold is now just 7 out of 17 points...

They have the same skill, same talents... but one has a higher Brawn. Just maths, not Starwars

Edit : Daeglan it's fact I didnt write the rules, + and - in a formula can be handled in every order, in the end the result is the same... so I could even apply Brawn before Deflect the result is just the same... the damage is reduced by 2 + deflect ranks + soak or any order... my 7 year old boy already knows addition and substraction, so I am sure you can

40 minutes ago, Rosco74 said:

As a quick exemple, those 2 characters have the exact same training and mastery of the lightsaber combat : 2 ranks in lightsaber and 2 levels of Deflect talent. The first one is a human farmer 18 years old from a desert planet. Obviously his Brawn is 2 and he wears little armor (+1). Soak 3.

The second one is a Whiphid (Keeping the Peace) with Brawn 5 and a modified Jedi armored robe (+3). Soak 8.

Human get 10 + Brawn WT so the farmer will have 12, the Whiphid 12 + Brawn so 17. Now they take the same exact shot wich deal 19 damages (Droideka shot with 5 success). The farmer use deflect and reduce the damage to 12 (2 + 2lvl of Deflect + Soak3) and just fall to the ground as he didn't deflect a single shot...his wound threshold of 12 is reached in a single round... The Whiphid use deflect and reduce the damage to 7 (2 + 2lvl of Deflect + Soak8) and is barely scratched as his wound threshold is now just 7 out of 17 points...

They have the same skill, same talents... but one has a higher Brawn. Just maths, not Starwars

Edit : Daeglan it's fact I didnt write the rules, + and - in a formula can be handled in every order, in the end the result is the same... so I could even apply Brawn before Deflect the result is just the same... the damage is reduced by 2 + deflect ranks + soak or any order... my 7 year old boy already knows addition and substraction, so I am sure you can

no. They both reflect the same amount of damage. That does not change the fact that the whipid is tougher and can shrug off more damage after they reflect what they can.
IE you narrate the armor absorbing more of the damage. They both reflect the same amount of damage away.

It is all in how you narrate and you should not narrate the Whipid reflecting more because they are not.

1 hour ago, Rosco74 said:

I know I know but the result is exactly the same... the formula for deflect is just : (2 + ranks in Deflect + Soak) wich is why I say the better your Brawn the better you deflect...

To Ebak, thanks for this novel, but you didn't get the point, you have fun like you want with your players but me and my players want to play Starwars, not a game "balanced" where a Stormtrooper" can one shot a Jedi. I don't care about balance ! We want **** Jedis without 2 left hands that can reflect a **** blaster shot. We didn't even start our campaign that players just loled at the Reflect mechanic, and they just basically made the same conclusion than me, just max your Brawn. Parry could work as it is but not Deflect. I have to wait for the first game untill I find a solution, I am still testing solo

I was polite, I was respectful, and I get that shoved into my face. Fine.

Strange....I thought I've been playing Star Wars for the past 5 years. My players have thought we've been playing Star Wars for the past 5 years. I guess it was all just a massive hallucination and dream, maybe I should get them to weigh in on this little 'discussion' since you clearly don't want to listen and just are looking for confirmation bias that you are right and justification to make the game as you want. Well guess what GM, you can do that!

If you don't care about balance, what are you ****ing doing here? Just have them enter an encounter, swing their lightsaber, Stormtroopers dead, congratulations you reduced your game to a button your players press with 'I win' written on it.

If all your players are Jedi, no harm no foul! If any one of them DARES play a non force user and suddenly they get shot and take damage I can assure you my reaction would be 'what the ****, how come they can not take damage at all?'

Edit: To reiterate, what you and your players are looking for is a novel, not a game, apparently. Screw gameplay and balance, you know...the main facets of a game. Let's just make an experience where we just win all the time. Your campaign sounds like it is going to be riddled with Gary Stu's and Mary Sue's.

You come on this forum, ask if anyone considered an all or nothing rule regarding reflect. We mostly all tell you how its a bad idea and here's why. Your reaction is: Screw you all.

You are a ****ing rude a**hole or b***h whichever gender you may be.

If you want to take this further how can Jedi deflect the barrage from a Droideka and yet a Jedi gets shot by a dude in shiny armor with PISTOL AKA Jango Fett.

1 hour ago, Rosco74 said:

As a quick exemple, those 2 characters have the exact same training and mastery of the lightsaber combat : 2 ranks in lightsaber and 2 levels of Deflect talent. The first one is a human farmer 18 years old from a desert planet. Obviously his Brawn is 2 and he wears little armor (+1). Soak 3.

The second one is a Whiphid (Keeping the Peace) with Brawn 5 and a modified Jedi armored robe (+3). Soak 8.

Human get 10 + Brawn WT so the farmer will have 12, the Whiphid 12 + Brawn so 17. Now they take the same exact shot wich deal 19 damages (Droideka shot with 5 success). The farmer use deflect and reduce the damage to 12 (2 + 2lvl of Deflect + Soak3) and just fall to the ground as he didn't deflect a single shot...his wound threshold of 12 is reached in a single round... The Whiphid use deflect and reduce the damage to 7 (2 + 2lvl of Deflect + Soak8) and is barely scratched as his wound threshold is now just 7 out of 17 points...

They have the same skill, same talents... but one has a higher Brawn. Just maths, not Starwars

Edit : Daeglan it's fact I didnt write the rules, + and - in a formula can be handled in every order, in the end the result is the same... so I could even apply Brawn before Deflect the result is just the same... the damage is reduced by 2 + deflect ranks + soak or any order... my 7 year old boy already knows addition and substraction, so I am sure you can

Also, if you would have read the rules (not that you apparently intend on following them), your farmer would actually still be up and about since he is actually on his wound threshold, not in excess of it which is when you suffer a critical and fall unconscious. *Drop mic*

@Rosco74 , @Ebak , CHILL both of you. You both need to relax.

@Rosco74 , if you are going to suggest such dramatic changes to the game, you should expect pushback. This is a topic that has been discussed multiple times over (and it's something I have certainly mulled many times), but in order to keep the game balance, I, and many others, think it needs to stay the way it is. You've got a problem with it, fine. Adding Failure is a decent way of getting around that. What you do at your table is your business, but as you said, you don't have a lot of experience with the RAW in this matter and these people do. Some of them may have even tried the houserules you are discussing and decided they don't work too well. Because of this, we are trying to show you why the rules are the way they are and convince you that they work narratively. If you still don't like it, fine. But that's no excuse for jumping down someone's throat, especially when it's a really polite and well-thought-out response.

@Ebak , just don't respond in kind. You come off looking almost as bad as the other person. Worse in some respects.

As for my two cents, bigger Brawn+better armor is always better. Period. That's just how it is. The thing that I think is being overlooked is that it isn't an either-or proposition. If you stack Brawn (say, 4+3 from armor=7) and Cunning and go through Shien and Sentry to get all 5 ranks of Reflect, you're looking at damage reduction of 14.

The problem with your use of droidekas as an example is that they are much higher damage than most opponents. Against an average-sized stormtrooper group, with Soak 4 and Reflect 2 (8) you'll take 2-3 damage each turn on average. For your farmer with a WT of 14 (probably got a Toughened by now), he'll run out of strain before he runs out of wounds, and that's when you narrate his guard going down.

Yep no worries, I was just pointing the limit of the system, but I will adapt the rules to my game, to make what Jedis are supposed to be. It just drives me crazy that an adult cannot understand that + and - are no dependent on the order, and the final result is the same. Again P-47 thanks for your moderation

No need to discuss more, it seems the subject has been already discussed endlessly with solutions on previous threads.

I also apologise, I was very harsh in my comment, I call out those I feel are being unfair.

Oh look:

6 minutes ago, Rosco74 said:

It just drives me crazy that an adult cannot understand that + and - are no dependent on the order, and the final result is the same.

Seems someone can't help but keep insulting people. Who's the one in the wrong again?

6 minutes ago, Rosco74 said:

I will adapt the rules to my game, to make what Jedis are supposed to be .

...in my opinion.

I do agree with @P-47 Thunderbolt better soak is nearly always better and yes using a Droideka as a basis of comparison, what is supposed to be a much higher threat is not a good baseline as their damage output is far large than most enemies in the game especially when you account for autofire.

I am not sure if we speak the same language lol, I don't see where is the insult ?! calling you an adult ?! nvm

Would both of you just stop?

You didn't insult me, it was more me defending @Daeglan. You're effectively calling into question his level of maths education for a second time. You did not need to make that statement in your last reply. It effectively is leaving the conversation while backhanding the person with an insult.

Edit: Posted after I saw P-47's post. Done now.

1 hour ago, Rosco74 said:

Yep no worries, I was just pointing the limit of the system, but I will adapt the rules to my game, to make what Jedis are supposed to be. It just drives me crazy that an adult cannot understand that + and - are no dependent on the order, and the final result is the same. Again P-47 thanks for your moderation

No need to discuss more, it seems the subject has been already discussed endlessly with solutions on previous threads.

It is a not a limit of the system. It is a limit you have in your head. mostly with how the scene is narrated. Jedi do not become invulnerable to blaster fire the moment that get one rank of reflect. over time as they get more ranks they get much much better.

And yes I know the math comes out better for the whipid. but if you are narrating the Whipid as reflecting all the damage away you are not narrating what happened. because the various ways damage is mitigated should narrated as such. so if 3 damage was reflected and the armor took care of the rest narrate it as the character reflected some blaster shots but was hit by some bolts and the armor took care of it.