Largely because of the Ataru Striker tree (Agility for Melee seems like an option that would make sense) and the lack of a dedicated swordfighting tree (Marauder doesn't count. That's a "hit it until its dead" tree), I decided to try to make a non-force sensitive version of the tree for Melee and Brawl and toss it out here to see what you people think:

Ataru Striker RAW:
Specialization skills: Athletics, Coordination, Perception, Lightsaber
Conditioned Parry Jump Up Quick Draw
| | |
Dodge Reflect - Ataru Technique Quick Strike
| | |
Quick Strike Reflect - Parry - Improved Parry
| | | |
Dodge Hawkbat Swoop Saber Swarm - Conditioned
| | | |
Parry - Dedication - Saber Throw Balance

Agility Melee tree:
Athletics, Coordination, Brawl, Melee
Conditioned Parry Jump Up Quick Draw
| | |
Dodge Second Wind - Quick Blows Quick Strike
| | |
Quick Strike Frenzied Attack Parry - Improved Parry
| | | |
Dodge Second Wind Flurry of Blows - Conditioned
| | | |
Parry - Dedication - Feral Strength-Improved Flurry of Blows

New Talents:
Quick Blows: May use Agility instead of Brawn for Brawl checks and Melee checks made with weapons of Encumbrance 3 or less that do not have the Cumbersome quality.

Flurry of Blows: Flurry of Blows: Once per round, perform a Flurry of Blows maneuver; suffer one strain to add the Linked (+1) quality to the next Melee-Agility or Brawl-Agility check.

Flurry of Blows (Improved): In addition to the normal effects of Flurry of Blows, the character may spend 4 Advantage or a Triumph to gain an additional extra hit. Multiple extra hits can be gained this way.

These are pretty much supposed to mimic Ataru Technique and Saber Swarm without being exact copies of same. Flurry of Blows is a bit inferior to Saber Swarm, which is by design since the character presumably has no force rating.

Anybody got any feedback? If it's fine as is, I'd like to know that too, but are there any issues with it that you can see?

It's probably fine, but the feral strength looks out of place to me on the tree. If it is a style to use agility versus Brawn that talent doesn't fit the theme to me. Looking between the 2 trees I would probably take that out and put in Balance to help with Recovery of strain at the end of combat.

Or maybe put in the Talent to spend a destiny point to recover stain equal to will power (Mind over Matter) or different stat if skills make more sense for it. Or make a new talent like that but can only be used once per Encounter. Since you may take strain on Flurry of blows, but then not able to use it if you don't get the advantages.

18 minutes ago, damnkid3 said:

It's probably fine, but the feral strength looks out of place to me on the tree. If it is a style to use agility versus Brawn that talent doesn't fit the theme to me.

I put in Feral Strength because if you are building an Agility based swordfighter, you will have a fairly low damage since it is still based on Brawn. This compensates for that even if the name doesn't necessarily make sense for the theme of the tree.

20 minutes ago, damnkid3 said:

Looking between the 2 trees I would probably take that out and put in Balance to help with Recovery of strain at the end of combat.

Or maybe put in the Talent to spend a destiny point to recover stain equal to will power (Mind over Matter) or different stat if skills make more sense for it. Or make a new talent like that but can only be used once per Encounter. Since you may take strain on Flurry of blows, but then not able to use it if you don't get the advantages.

I put 2 ranks Rapid Recovery in as a substitute for Balance, but would Second Wind be better? As an incidental, recover strain equal to ranks in Second Wind (2).

Yeah, I like second wind better than Rapid Recovery for it. Since the sword fighter needs it now versus worrying about the end of the fight. I haven't seen that talent in a long time, I can't think of any recent trees it has been on.

1 minute ago, damnkid3 said:

Yeah, I like second wind better than Rapid Recovery for it. Since the sword fighter needs it now versus worrying about the end of the fight. I haven't seen that talent in a long time, I can't think of any recent trees it has been on.

Okay, I'll slip it in.

It isn't all that common. From the AoR and EotE CRBs, it's just Mercenary Soldier, Recruit, and Saboteur.

On 4/2/2020 at 11:56 AM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Largely because of the Ataru Striker tree (Agility for Melee seems like an option that would make sense) and the lack of a dedicated swordfighting tree (Marauder doesn't count. That's a "hit it until its dead" tree), I decided to try to make a non-force sensitive version of the tree for Melee and Brawl and toss it out here to see what you people think:

Ataru Striker RAW:
Specialization skills: Athletics, Coordination, Perception, Lightsaber
Conditioned Parry Jump Up Quick Draw
| | |
Dodge Reflect - Ataru Technique Quick Strike
| | |
Quick Strike Reflect - Parry - Improved Parry
| | | |
Dodge Hawkbat Swoop Saber Swarm - Conditioned
| | | |
Parry - Dedication - Saber Throw Balance

Agility Melee tree:
Athletics, Coordination, Brawl, Melee
Conditioned Parry Jump Up Quick Draw
| | |
Dodge Second Wind - Quick Blows Quick Strike
| | |
Quick Strike Frenzied Attack Parry - Improved Parry
| | | |
Dodge Second Wind Flurry of Blows - Conditioned
| | | |
Parry - Dedication - Feral Strength - Flurry of Blows

New Talents:
Quick Blows: May use Agility instead of Brawn for Brawl checks and Melee checks made with weapons of Encumbrance 3 or less that do not have a Cumbersome rating of 3 or more.

Flurry of Blows: Perform a Flurry of Blows maneuver; suffer strain up to ranks in Flurry of Blows to have the next Agility - Brawl or Agility - Melee check gain the Linked quality equal to strain suffered.

These are pretty much supposed to mimic Ataru Technique and Saber Swarm without being exact copies of same. Flurry of Blows is a bit inferior to Saber Swarm, which is by design since the character presumably has no force rating.

Saberswarm is a rather unbalanced talent but requires force dice of which the career not spec provides 1), with this tree you gain linked 2... so in that sense it's better than saberswarm which seems maybe too powerful, if flurry of blows required a triumph to get an extra attack, and can only be activated once per attack... then with fully upgraded dice pool you have about a 1/2 chance per attack of making 2 attacks per round, a 1/4 chance of making 3 attacks per round, a 1/8 chance of making 4 attacks per round... but. To make it slightly more likely you can have it take 5 advantage or a triumph (and not require a successful attack).... so for those rolls that come up with a whole lot of advantage but not enough success you get a second chance to hit, and you can direct sequential attacks against different targets if you desire.

Also I would limited quick blows to does not have a cumbersome rating.

19 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Saberswarm is a rather unbalanced talent but requires force dice of which the career not spec provides 1), with this tree you gain linked 2... so in that sense it's better than saberswarm which seems maybe too powerful, if flurry of blows required a triumph to get an extra attack, and can only be activated once per attack... then with fully upgraded dice pool you have about a 1/2 chance per attack of making 2 attacks per round, a 1/4 chance of making 3 attacks per round, a 1/8 chance of making 4 attacks per round... but. To make it slightly more likely you can have it take 5 advantage or a triumph (and not require a successful attack).... so for those rolls that come up with a whole lot of advantage but not enough success you get a second chance to hit, and you can direct sequential attacks against different targets if you desire.

Oh, $#%&. I didn't even think about the ability to use it every attack. Should I make it once per encounter, or is that too weak?

I'm not sure what you're saying about sequential attacks though... It only allows you to make one attack, you just add the Linked quality.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

Also I would limited quick blows to does not have a cumbersome rating.

Yeah, I guess that makes it more straightforward, and I had considered it, but I figured some Cumbersome 2 weapons might still make sense. I think you're right. I'll change that.

3 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Oh, $#%&. I didn't even think about the ability to use it every attack. Should I make it once per encounter, or is that too weak?

I'm not sure what you're saying about sequential attacks though... It only allows you to make one attack, you just add the Linked quality.

You want to be able to use it every round. A single rank (linked 1) wouldn't be teeribly unbalanced. I suggested an alternative ability assuming to wanted to get multiple extra hits per round.... making it closer to unmatched ferocity (multiple attacks instead of linked) but requiring a triumph or 5 advantage to get the next attack. Once per attack means that rolling 2 triumphs doesn't give you 2 extra attacks.

18 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I suggested an alternative ability assuming to wanted to get multiple extra hits per round.... making it closer to unmatched ferocity (multiple attacks instead of linked) but requiring a triumph or 5 advantage to get the next attack. Once per attack means that rolling 2 triumphs doesn't give you 2 extra attacks.

Ah, I didn't realize it was a different ability, I thought you were trying to tell me how Saber Swarm works. My bad.

I'll think on it some more and get back to you.

@EliasWindrider , I've been thinking more about Flurry of Blows, and I'm not sure it's actually all that powerful compared to Saber Swarm. They both take a Maneuver, Flurry of Blows takes at least as much strain, and Flurry of Blows is capped at Linked 2, while Saber Swarm goes as high as your force rating (which admittedly is only higher later on, and the effect is lessened with each increase). At most, I think Saber Swarm just gets you a bit of a jump on how quickly you get to Linked 2, but it costs an extra strain for it and doesn't have as high a ceiling, only going up to Linked 2. Further, it only goes faster on a 1:1 comparison where Ataru Striker is the first spec. If Ataru Striker is a second spec after filling out most of a previous spec, then the force user actually gets the advantage.

Perhaps an Improved version would be better? If so, how would you rewrite the talent/write the Improved version?

I can see the Triumph to gain an extra attack, but Advantage can get really out of hand with that. As a general rule, a character rolls no more than a single check each round. If you have someone with a full pool, plus a couple Boost for Accurate, rolling against Average, would get out of hand in a heck of a hurry. I'd say a reasonably difficult Adversary would probably be a difficulty of about 2 Challenge, 2 Setback with Adversary and Melee Defense. Plus, a Maneuver and Strain for a chance to get an extra attack if you get a Triumph is going to turn a lot of people off of actually using the talent (at least until late-game), and when they do, they have a decent chance of disappointment when their Proficiency dice all come up blank.

13 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

@EliasWindrider , I've been thinking more about Flurry of Blows, and I'm not sure it's actually all that powerful compared to Saber Swarm. They both take a Maneuver, Flurry of Blows takes at least as much strain, and Flurry of Blows is capped at Linked 2, while Saber Swarm goes as high as your force rating (which admittedly is only higher later on, and the effect is lessened with each increase). At most, I think Saber Swarm just gets you a bit of a jump on how quickly you get to Linked 2, but it costs an extra strain for it and doesn't have as high a ceiling, only going up to Linked 2. Further, it only goes faster on a 1:1 comparison where Ataru Striker is the first spec. If Ataru Striker is a second spec after filling out most of a previous spec, then the force user actually gets the advantage.

Perhaps an Improved version would be better? If so, how would you rewrite the talent/write the Improved version?

I can see the Triumph to gain an extra attack, but Advantage can get really out of hand with that. As a general rule, a character rolls no more than a single check each round. If you have someone with a full pool, plus a couple Boost for Accurate, rolling against Average, would get out of hand in a heck of a hurry. I'd say a reasonably difficult Adversary would probably be a difficulty of about 2 Challenge, 2 Setback with Adversary and Melee Defense. Plus, a Maneuver and Strain for a chance to get an extra attack if you get a Triumph is going to turn a lot of people off of actually using the talent (at least until late-game), and when they do, they have a decent chance of disappointment when their Proficiency dice all come up blank.

Maybe fury of blows becomes unranked and improved flurry of blows Grant's a number of extra hits equal to triumphs spent or 4 advantage per extra hit.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

Maybe fury of blows becomes unranked and improved flurry of blows Grant's a number of extra hits equal to triumphs spent or 4 advantage per extra hit.

Like this?

Flurry of Blows: Perform a Flurry of Blows maneuver; suffer 1 strain to have the next Agility - Brawl or Agility - Melee check gain the Linked 1 quality.

Improved Flurry of Blows: When using Flurry of Blows, may spend 4 Advantage or a Triumph to gain additional extra hits.

5 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Like this?

Flurry of Blows: Perform a Flurry of Blows maneuver; suffer 1 strain to have the next Agility - Brawl or Agility - Melee check gain the Linked 1 quality.

Improved Flurry of Blows: When using Flurry of Blows, may spend 4 Advantage or a Triumph to gain additional extra hits.

Basically... not sure it's the wording ffg would have used.

6 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Basically... not sure it's the wording ffg would have used.

Yeah, I felt that too. Not sure how to word it better, though.

On 4/12/2020 at 4:44 PM, EliasWindrider said:

Basically... not sure it's the wording ffg would have used.

How about:

Flurry of Blows: Once per round, perform a Flurry of Blows maneuver; suffer one strain to add the Linked (+1) quality to the next Melee-Agility or Brawl-Agility check.

Flurry of Blows (Improved): In addition to the normal effects of Flurry of Blows, the character may spend 4 Advantage or a Triumph to gain an additional extra hit. (or additional extra hits, plural?)

I've still been waffling back-and-forth on this, that's why it's taken me so long to change the OP. If the wording here makes sense, I think I'll go ahead and splice it in.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

How about:

Flurry of Blows: Once per round, perform a Flurry of Blows maneuver; suffer one strain to add the Linked (+1) quality to the next Melee-Agility or Brawl-Agility check.

Flurry of Blows (Improved): In addition to the normal effects of Flurry of Blows, the character may spend 4 Advantage or a Triumph to gain an additional extra hit. (or additional extra hits, plural?)

I've still been waffling back-and-forth on this, that's why it's taken me so long to change the OP. If the wording here makes sense, I think I'll go ahead and splice it in.

"Multiple extra hits can be gained in this way"

Okay, I want to try some of the other lightsaber form trees, and am looking as to which ones I should do.

Currently, my list looks like this:

• Makashi (definitely)
• Shii-Cho (definitely)
• Niman (maybe?)
• Shien, Soresu, and Juyo (not sure they'd carry over well. Juyo because of the focus of the tree, Shien and Soresu because of the high concentration of force talents and the prevalence of Reflect/Improved Reflect)

Hand-in-hand with this is the question of what Characteristic they should be linked to. I'm thinking it'd probably be best to use the same Characteristic as the lightsaber tree, but at the same time, some stuff probably wouldn't carry over as well to actual swords. Thoughts? Shii-Cho is a pretty easy one given its use of Brawn.

11 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Okay, I want to try some of the other lightsaber form trees, and am looking as to which ones I should do.

Currently, my list looks like this:

• Makashi (definitely)
• Shii-Cho (definitely)
• Niman (maybe?)
• Shien, Soresu, and Juyo (not sure they'd carry over well. Juyo because of the focus of the tree, Shien and Soresu because of the high concentration of force talents and the prevalence of Reflect/Improved Reflect)

Hand-in-hand with this is the question of what Characteristic they should be linked to. I'm thinking it'd probably be best to use the same Characteristic as the lightsaber tree, but at the same time, some stuff probably wouldn't carry over as well to actual swords. Thoughts? Shii-Cho is a pretty easy one given its use of Brawn.

Niman relies a lot on the force. Same with juyo.

Makashi would be a good Tapani saber rake tree

11 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Okay, I want to try some of the other lightsaber form trees, and am looking as to which ones I should do.

Currently, my list looks like this:

• Makashi (definitely)
• Shii-Cho (definitely)
• Niman (maybe?)
• Shien, Soresu, and Juyo (not sure they'd carry over well. Juyo because of the focus of the tree, Shien and Soresu because of the high concentration of force talents and the prevalence of Reflect/Improved Reflect)

Hand-in-hand with this is the question of what Characteristic they should be linked to. I'm thinking it'd probably be best to use the same Characteristic as the lightsaber tree, but at the same time, some stuff probably wouldn't carry over as well to actual swords. Thoughts? Shii-Cho is a pretty easy one given its use of Brawn.

Makashi yes, shi-cho... it's brawn based so what's the point... you could take the tree and buy around or through talents and it works fine... I've toyed with a non FS bh:martial artist/shi-cho knight build for the extra ranks of parry.

9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Niman relies a lot on the force. Same with juyo.

Makashi would be a good Tapani saber rake tree

Fair enough. Not going to cross Niman off entirely, but I will cross off Juyo.

Err... What's a Tapani Saber Rake?

9 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Makashi yes, shi-cho... it's brawn based so what's the point... you could take the tree and buy around or through talents and it works fine... I've toyed with a non FS bh:martial artist/shi-cho knight build for the extra ranks of parry.

That's a decent point. The reason would be to make the saber-specific force talents (Sarlacc Sweep, Sum Djem) work for a non-force sensitive. Partly because Dedication is locked behind two force talents.

I'll prioritize Makashi Duelist then.

40 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Fair enough. Not going to cross Niman off entirely, but I will cross off Juyo.

Err... What's a Tapani Saber Rake?

That's a decent point. The reason would be to make the saber-specific force talents (Sarlacc Sweep, Sum Djem) work for a non-force sensitive. Partly because Dedication is locked behind two force talents.

I'll prioritize Makashi Duelist then.

I dont think Niman is how a non jedi will based character would fight. I see either a juggeraught whonwill not stop. Or a something like an aggressor style tree.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

I dont think Niman is how a non jedi will based character would fight. I see either a juggeraught whonwill not stop. Or a something like an aggressor style tree.

Good point. I'll see what I can work up for that once I'm done with Makashi.

I'm looking at Makashi Flourish, and it doesn't really have anything to do with the force.

I'd like to reskin it, at least, and of course I've got to change the Lightsaber-Presence to Melee-Presence, but should I keep it the same, or tweak it, or completely replace it?

Also, if I do just reskin it, what should I call it? I'm currently considering Appel ( Stamping the front foot to the ground, to produce a sound to distract or startle the opponent. This may be made during an advance, or directly from an en garde position. It may precede a lunge, or be used merely as a distraction. An appel is also sometimes called a 'half-Advance'. This action may also be used to halt a bout, often by stamping the trailing foot insistently) or Balestra (A footwork preparation, consisting of a jump forwards. It is most often, but not always, immediately followed by a lunge. It is typically faster than a standard advance but generally covers a much shorter distance. The balestra may be used in order to shift the fencer into a more offensive stance or as a way of altering the tempo of the fencing phrase), but I'm more than open to suggestions.

If I should replace it, what unique Melee-Presence talent should I replace it with?

And what should I call the Makashi Technique analog?