1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Breach gives literally 0 damage. It only allows you to ignore Soak, and most personal-scale targets have 5 or less Soak, meaning that at most you could say that it is +5 damage, and against a target with 1 Soak, it is only +1 damage.
and you missed my point. hence why i said effectively.
22 minutes ago, Daeglan said:I* find this to not be the case. If you think about it the lightsaber starts with effectively +10 damage and 6 to 10 damage...so 16 to 20 damage per attack. add in saber storm and hawkbat swoop double to triple that,. So yeah. I think you are underplaying the damage output of a lightsaber.
It's not +10 damage it's -10 soak, so typically in the +4 to +6 range, so we're talking about 16 damage (plus successes) effectively and without saberswarm or unmatched ferocity that's a once per round.
A light repeating blaster has 11 base damage, pierce 1, so effectively 12 base damage before it's 4 hard points are spent on attachments + mods come into play so it's coming close to matching a lightsaber on a per hit basis before autofire factors in. And if that's to big, there are auto fire carbines which do few less damage per hit, and highly concealable auto fire pistols which do somewhat lest damage before autofire factors in.
If you're playing a lightsaber jedi other than an ataru striker you're doing it for a reason other than damage output.
Edited by EliasWindrider12 minutes ago, Daeglan said:and you missed my point. hence why i said effectively.
No he didn't, he said typical opponents had 5 or less soak. Effectively it's +5 or less for typical opponents. I went for a range of 4 to 6 but... same ballpark.
So what do the rest of the you think of take 4 of jedi:ronin? Both a "grade" on the class as a whole, and appropriateness of power level. What changes do you think would make it better (in the sense of more interesting and more appropriate to the jedi career). Also I'm thinking, coercion, lightsaber, and vigilance for skills... don't know what the 4th skill should be, do you have suggestions?
Edited by EliasWindrider
As far as talent selection, it looks decent (I don't like Disorienting Strike, though, I think that soemthing else might be better suited there. Maybe Intimidating? Just a thought). My only real issue with it is just how meandering much of the path is. One of my biggest objections to the Heavy tree is just how long it takes to get anywhere good. I would suggest adding in a couple more connections (specific objections: It takes a minimum of 185XP to get to Force Rating, 150XP to get to Dedication, 160XP to get to Natural Blademaster, and you would be reluctant to get anything in the top right corner of the tree because it doesn't advance you. Not saying those talents aren't good or useful, they just don't get you anywhere).
Rebuild suggestion:
Constant Vigilance Toughened Parry Reflect
| | |
Always Ready ---- Parry ----- push aside ----- Grit
| | |
Trust No One Reflect ----- Grit ----- Renegade Form
| | |
Trusted by No One ----- Intimidating? natural blademaster ----- Force Rating
| |
Feared by All ----- Coercion Dodge -- The Force Is the Blade of the Heart -- Dedication
As for a fourth skill, I've got a couple ideas, listed in order of support from greatest to least: Deception, Survival, Knowledge (Underworld), Resilience.
Edited by P-47 ThunderboltI like your layout which is why I didn't use it (although maybe we could tweak it)
I'm not a big fan of disorienting strike either... that's part of why I included.... if every talent is gold why not take it.
I'd like to lock blade of the heart behind a conflict talent or at least an expensive path so it's not a why not take this.
I'm not digging intimidating... i think it should be replaced with a lightsaber talent.
Survival and resilience made my list too.... not feeling underworld because there are no talents related to that.... maybe deception is the reason the character is trusted by no one.
Maybe replace disorienting strike with some kind of running slash or mobility related talent
I'm a little hesitant on this one because it's a unique talent, but momentum from the deathwatch warrior tree would work for a running slash talent.... if they take 2 strain they could get a + 2 bonus by taking 2 maneuvers for an initial attack. With force leap it could increase to a +4 damage as an opening attack.
Falling avalanche (take 2 strain add brawn to damage) appears in multiple trees and goes towards the intensity theme, it also makes a brawn based jedi shine to balance out the usefulness of renegade form for every other attribute except brawn.
.
Edited by EliasWindriderTake 5
Career skills: coercion, deception, lightsaber, vigilance
Prerequisite: force rating 2
Constant Vigilance Toughened Parry Reflect
| | |
Always Ready ---- Parry ----- push aside ----- Grit
| | |
Trust No One falling avalanche ----- Grit ----- Renegade Form
| |
Trusted by No One blade of the heart Reflect ----- Force Rating
| | |
Feared by All ----- Coercion Dodge - natural blademaster ---- Dedication
Always ready: (force talent) when targeted for an attack, the character may draw and ignite an available lightsaber as an out of turn incidental, qualifying the use of talents such as parry, reflect, and combat training. An asleep character may still use this talent, it wakes them up.
Trusted by no one: upgrade the difficulty of all charm, deception, and negotiation checks made by the character once, in addition to the normal effects of despair add an number of triumphs equal to the number of despair rolled to the next initiative check made by the character in the same session. This talent does not stack with itself.
Feared by all: the character can oppose fear and coercion checks with coercion instead of discipline or cool. In addition if the opponent fails the check with despair or the character succeeds on the check with triumph, the attempt backfires and the opponent targeting the character suffers the coercion or fear effect instead.
Coercion dodge: conflict force talent (coordination dodge but with coercion instead of coordination, flavored as a look from the character causes the attacker to hesitate and falter momentarily, giving the character the opportunity to evade the attack)
Blade of the heart (force talent): take the blade of the heart action, make a lightsaber combat check against an engaged target. Add force die up to force rating, spend forcepip to add success or advantage (character's choice).
Edited by EliasWindriderMomentum makes some sense.
As far as locking it behind a conflict talent, which ones are conflict talents? Just Coercion Dodge? If you make a second talent into a conflict talent or add a conflict talent, then you could put it where Grit is on my layout and then move Grit to fill the empty spot, or, if you make a new talent, put Grit where Disorienting Strike was
Constant Vigilance Toughened Parry Reflect
| | |
Always Ready ---- Parry ----- push aside ----- Grit
| | |
Trust No One Reflect ----- Conflict? ----- Renegade Form
| | |
Trusted by No One ----- Grit natural blademaster ----- Force Rating
| |
Feared by All ----- Coercion Dodge -- The Force Is the Blade of the Heart -- Dedication
1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:Take 5
Career skills: coercion, deception, lightsaber, vigilance
Prerequisite: force rating 2
Constant Vigilance Toughened Parry Reflect
| | |
Always Ready ---- Parry ----- push aside ----- Grit
| | |
Trust No One falling avalanche ----- Grit ----- Renegade Form
| |
Trusted by No One blade of the heart Reflect ----- Force Rating
| | |
Feared by All ----- Coercion Dodge - natural blademaster ---- Dedication
Yeah, that looks pretty good. Still a touch more expensive to get to Blade of the Heart than I would prefer, though it's not too bad.
16 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Yeah, that looks pretty good. Still a touch more expensive to get to Blade of the Heart than I would prefer, though it's not too bad.
Do you have a strong preference between momentum and falling avalanche?
I'm also thinking that the line underneath toughened should be removed and one should be added under reflect... toughened doesn't seem like a narratively appropriate place to start their journey to becoming a ronin. Reflect and parry are about being a blademaster and constant vigilance is about being distrustful
Putting it under reflect also provides a less physically aggressive route (avoids pus aside) which would be narratively/ thematically interesting
Edited by EliasWindriderI'm not familiar with Falling Avalanche.
5 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:I'm not familiar with Falling Avalanche.
Whoops! Found it. I do have a preference for Momentum over Falling Avalanche.
12 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:I'm also thinking that the line underneath toughened should be removed and one should be added under reflect... toughened doesn't seem like a narratively appropriate place to start their journey to becoming a ronin. Reflect and parry are about being a blademaster and constant vigilance is about being distrustful
Then it should probably just switch the talents, not the line, as I think that the line placement makes the most sense as-is for that section.
3 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Then it should probably just switch the talents, not the line, as I think that the line placement makes the most sense as-is for that section.
What if we switched toughened and reflect and falling avalanche/momentum with renegade form... so that blade of the heart is in a blade skill column?
1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:What if we switched toughened and reflect and falling avalanche/momentum with renegade form... so that blade of the heart is in a blade skill column?
Fine with me. What it does is make Renegade Form 5XP cheaper, with the inverse for Falling Avalanche.
Take 6 (how's this? Starting with the right column gives a mental focus route, starting with parry gives a physically intense route)
Career skills: coercion, deception, lightsaber, vigilance
Prerequisite: force rating 2
Constant Vigilance Toughened Parry Reflect
| | |
Always Ready ---- Parry ----- push aside ----- Grit
| | |
Trust No One momentum ----- Grit ----- Renegade Form
| |
Trusted by No One blade of the heart Reflect ----- Force Rating
| | |
Feared by All ----- Coercion Dodge - natural blademaster ---- Dedication
Always ready: (force talent) when targeted for an attack, the character may draw and ignite an available lightsaber as an out of turn incidental, qualifying the use of talents such as parry, reflect, and combat training. An asleep character may still use this talent, it wakes them up.
Trusted by no one: upgrade the difficulty of all charm, deception, and negotiation checks made by the character once, in addition to the normal effects of despair add an number of triumphs equal to the number of despair rolled to the next initiative check made by the character in the same session. This talent does not stack with itself.
Feared by all: the character can oppose fear and coercion checks with coercion instead of discipline or cool. In addition if the opponent fails the check with despair or the character succeeds on the check with triumph, the attempt backfires and the opponent targeting the character suffers the coercion or fear effect instead.
Coercion dodge: conflict force talent (coordination dodge but with coercion instead of coordination, flavored as a look from the character causes the attacker to hesitate and falter momentarily, giving the character the opportunity to evade the attack)
Blade of the heart (force talent): take the blade of the heart action, make a lightsaber combat check against an engaged target. Add force die up to force rating, spend forcepip to add success or advantage (character's choice).
12 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Fine with me. What it does is make Renegade Form 5XP cheaper, with the inverse for Falling Avalanche.
Momentum was originally a 25 xp talent, renegade form was originally a 15 xp talent.
Take 6b (do you prefer this or take 6)
Career skills: coercion, deception, lightsaber, vigilance
Prerequisite: force rating 2
Constant Vigilance Reflect Parry Toughened
| | |
Always Ready ---- Parry ----- push aside ----- Grit
| | |
Trust No One Renegade Form ----- Grit ----- momentum
| |
Trusted by No One blade of the heart Reflect ----- Force Rating
| | |
Feared by All ----- Coercion Dodge - natural blademaster ---- Dedication
Always ready: (force talent) when targeted for an attack, the character may draw and ignite an available lightsaber as an out of turn incidental, qualifying the use of talents such as parry, reflect, and combat training. An asleep character may still use this talent, it wakes them up.
Trusted by no one: upgrade the difficulty of all charm, deception, and negotiation checks made by the character once, in addition to the normal effects of despair add an number of triumphs equal to the number of despair rolled to the next initiative check made by the character in the same session. This talent does not stack with itself.
Feared by all: the character can oppose fear and coercion checks with coercion instead of discipline or cool. In addition if the opponent fails the check with despair or the character succeeds on the check with triumph, the attempt backfires and the opponent targeting the character suffers the coercion or fear effect instead.
Coercion dodge: conflict force talent (coordination dodge but with coercion instead of coordination, flavored as a look from the character causes the attacker to hesitate and falter momentarily, giving the character the opportunity to evade the attack)
Blade of the heart (force talent): take the blade of the heart action, make a lightsaber combat check against an engaged target. Add force die up to force rating, spend forcepip to add success or advantage (character's choice).
I prefer 6b.
7 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:I prefer 6b.
What if we removed the line under reflect and added a horizontal line from trust no one to renegade form....a renegade with no trust seems appropriate
Adding a line is fine, but I don't think you should remove the line (you're talking about A2 Reflect - B2 Parry, right?)
Just now, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Adding a line is fine, but I don't think you should remove the line (you're talking about A2 Reflect - B2 Parry, right?)
Yeah
Take 7 (I think that this makes the most sense from the perspective of players trying to tell a story by the talents their characters take)
Career skills: coercion, deception, lightsaber, vigilance
Prerequisite: force rating 2
Constant Vigilance Reflect Parry Toughened
| |
Always Ready ---- Parry ----- push aside ----- Grit
| | |
Trust No One ---- Renegade Form ----- Grit ----- momentum
| |
Trusted by No One blade of the heart Reflect ----- Force Rating
| | |
Feared by All ----- Coercion Dodge - natural blademaster ---- Dedication
Always ready: (force talent) when targeted for an attack, the character may draw and ignite an available lightsaber as an out of turn incidental, qualifying the use of talents such as parry, reflect, and combat training. An asleep character may still use this talent, it wakes them up.
Trusted by no one: upgrade the difficulty of all charm, deception, and negotiation checks made by the character once, in addition to the normal effects of despair add an number of triumphs equal to the number of despair rolled to the next initiative check made by the character in the same session. This talent does not stack with itself.
Feared by all: the character can oppose fear and coercion checks with coercion instead of discipline or cool. In addition if the opponent fails the check with despair or the character succeeds on the check with triumph, the attempt backfires and the opponent targeting the character suffers the coercion or fear effect instead.
Coercion dodge: conflict force talent (coordination dodge but with coercion instead of coordination, flavored as a look from the character causes the attacker to hesitate and falter momentarily, giving the character the opportunity to evade the attack)
Blade of the heart (force talent): take the blade of the heart action, make a lightsaber combat check against an engaged target. Add force die up to force rating, spend forcepip to add success or advantage (character's choice).
Take 7b (actually I think that this makes the most sense from the perspective of players trying to tell a story by the talents their characters take)
Career skills: coercion, deception, lightsaber, vigilance
Prerequisite: force rating 2
Constant Vigilance Reflect Parry Toughened
| |
Always Ready ---- Parry ----- Grit ----- push aside
| | |
Trust No One ---- Renegade Form ----- Grit ----- momentum
| |
Trusted by No One blade of the heart Reflect ----- Force Rating
| | |
Feared by All ----- Coercion Dodge - natural blademaster ---- Dedication
Always ready: (force talent) when targeted for an attack, the character may draw and ignite an available lightsaber as an out of turn incidental, qualifying the use of talents such as parry, reflect, and combat training. An asleep character may still use this talent, it wakes them up.
Trusted by no one: upgrade the difficulty of all charm, deception, and negotiation checks made by the character once, in addition to the normal effects of despair add an number of triumphs equal to the number of despair rolled to the next initiative check made by the character in the same session. This talent does not stack with itself.
Feared by all: the character can oppose fear and coercion checks with coercion instead of discipline or cool. In addition if the opponent fails the check with despair or the character succeeds on the check with triumph, the attempt backfires and the opponent targeting the character suffers the coercion or fear effect instead.
Coercion dodge: conflict force talent (coordination dodge but with coercion instead of coordination, flavored as a look from the character causes the attacker to hesitate and falter momentarily, giving the character the opportunity to evade the attack)
Blade of the heart (force talent): take the blade of the heart action, make a lightsaber combat check against an engaged target. Add force die up to force rating, spend forcepip to add success or advantage (character's choice).