I am new to the L5R RPG and AI have a question about the timing of combat effects.

Let’s say a Bushi with endurance of 9 total with 4 fatigue is hit with 7 damage after armor and all other damage resistance. Since the fatigue total now exceeds the endurance, does the Bushi immediately become incapacitated and suffer a critical strike? And then become unconscious? Or does the Bushi go to fatigue level 11, take a critical strike, and become just incapacitated? Or, lastly, does the Bushi defend and go to 11 fatigue, become incapacitated, but take NO critical strike? Any FFG YouTube video or third party combat example link would be greatly appreciated!

the Bushi defend and go to 11 fatigue, become incapacitated, but take NO critical strike

@Avatar111 is correct.

• Any time your fatigue exceeds your endurance, you are incapacitated.
  • as an aside, Endurance 9 is technically impossible for a PC, as it's (Earth + Fire) x 2 - so must always be an even number greater than 4
• You do not receive a critical strike for being pushed past your endurance.
• You are, once Incapacitated , unable to defend, so the next time you suffer damage, you will automatically receive a critical strike and hence, as per the Incapacitated rules, become Unconscious .

There is a possible issue if a PC is rendered incapacitated by a strike action with kept results , with the results spent to inflict a critical strike.

The Strike action's opportunity is " : If you succeed , you inflict a critical strike on your target with severity equal to your weapon’s deadliness."

That implies that whilst the opportunity is spent normally, the critical strike does not take effect until you resolve the symbols, which is when success is determined and which applies the 'success' effect (the damage which will render the target Incapacitated ).

It's not entirely clear, therefore, if the fatigue or the critical strike would be resolved first in this case (or who decides if it is a choice). This is important because applying the critical strike to an Incapacitated opponent is obviously far more dangerous, since it would automatically render them Unconscious .

Nothing is clear, that, we know.. This game is a "understand it how you want" system.

I play it as if Fatigue is resolved first.
Void points can be used to avoid the Unconscious fate.
Also, my Incapacitated condition isn't as binary as the core rule one, so that kind of all fall into place.

Slight side-note, as I've said many times, I think it's best to consider "Incapacitated" and "Unconscious" as naming mistakes. Or rather, leftovers from an earlier draft. I like Avatar's tweak to Incapacitated, but even RAW, an Incapacitated character isn't, well, incapacitated. He can still move and take actions (just not rolled ones), and defend himself a little (his TN to be hit isn't any easier). So he's "rattled," "shaken," "winded," "reeling," or any other word that means "still standing, still in the fight, but in a lot of trouble."

By the same token, I don't consider "Unconscious" to be unconscious. My Unconscious is much closer to incapacitated (though I obviously can't call it that). Because stabbing an unconscious person laying on the ground is just super lame, even to a hated enemy. How many samurai movies have a duel end like that? Probably none. They either die on their feet (Finishing Blow), or fall to their knees, clutching the nasty wound they just took, and scowl defiantly as their opponent takes their head. Or fall to their knees, seemingly finished, then spend a Void Point to ignore the condition, making one final bid to turn the tables and kill their enemy. Or stare off into the sunset, saying something poetic about the cherry blossoms against the sky as their life fades. Literally anything is better than "falls unconscious."

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

@Avatar111 is correct.

• Any time your fatigue exceeds your endurance, you are incapacitated.
  • as an aside, Endurance 9 is technically impossible for a PC, as it's (Earth + Fire) x 2 - so must always be an even number greater than 4

... unless someone Afflicted becomes Compromised while in Earth stance...

14 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:

Slight side-note, as I've said many times, I think it's best to consider "Incapacitated" and "Unconscious" as naming mistakes.

Seconded.

Looking at the "Dealing Damage" section on page 268 of the Core Rule Book it says,

"When and effect states that it deals damage to a character there are three possible outcomes:

• The Character reduces the damage to 0 with armor or similar protection against the strike.
• The character defends against the damage by receiving fatigue equal to any remaining damage to dodge, block or deflect a telling blow.
• If the character does not reduce the damage to 0 or defend, they suffer a critical strike with severity based on the damage source."

Also on page 268 for the section "Defending against Damage" it says,

" To defend, the must receive an amount of fatigue equal to the remaining damage; otherwise, they suffer a critical strike with severity based on the source."

This makes it look like as soon as the fatigue value exceeds a characters endurance value they suffer at critical strike.

5 minutes ago, Ryath said:

Looking at the "Dealing Damage" section on page 268 of the Core Rule Book it says,

"When and effect states that it deals damage to a character there are three possible outcomes:

• The Character reduces the damage to 0 with armor or similar protection against the strike.
• The character defends against the damage by receiving fatigue equal to any remaining damage to dodge, block or deflect a telling blow.
• If the character does not reduce the damage to 0 or defend, they suffer a critical strike with severity based on the damage source."

Also on page 268 for the section "Defending against Damage" it says,

" To defend, the must receive an amount of fatigue equal to the remaining damage; otherwise, they suffer a critical strike with severity based on the source."

This makes it look like as soon as the fatigue value exceeds a characters endurance value they suffer at critical strike.

you are missing one of the random sidebar "somewhere" close by.
trust me.

The red side bar on page 268 says:

"A character can still defend if defending would cause their fatigue to exceed their endurance.

However, having fatigue in excess of their endurance does render a character incapacitated (see page 272), leaving them unable to defend against future damage!"

That doesn't seem to negate the fact that once they have more fatigue then endurance they suffer a critical hit.

10 minutes ago, Ryath said:

This makes it look like as soon as the fatigue value exceeds a characters endurance value they suffer at critical strike.

I don't see how you get that. And also, they don't. You Defend, then suffer fatigue, and exceed your threshold. At no point does it say you need to suffer a Critical Strike. If you take damage while Incapacitated, you can't defend, so you then suffer a Crit.

Page 268:

" To defend, the must receive an amount of fatigue equal to the remaining damage; otherwise, they suffer a critical strike with severity based on the source."

Yeah. You take damage, you either suffer a Crit, or Defend and suffer Fatigue. Attack over.

That Fatigue can put you over your threshold, so you can't Defend against more damage, but nowhere does it say you suffer a Crit. You specifically Defended so that you do not suffer a Crit.

"A character can still defend if defending would cause their fatigue to exceed their endurance." (pretty self explanatory, you are still Defending)

However, having fatigue in excess of their endurance does render a character incapacitated (see page 272), leaving them unable to defend against future damage!" (they mention "future" damage. again, making it pretty clear)

In fact, against low-Deadliness weapons, it's often a very good idea not to Defend, because then you stay in the fight. If your Fatigue is close to your Endurance, and your enemy hits you with a tetsubo or otsuchi, Defending against that hit is going to leave you Incapacitated for several rounds. While you're taking that Calming Breath to recover 1 Fatigue each round, he's going to draw his katana and finish you off.

You're better off spending a Void Point to not Defend, and take that Severity 3 Crit. Assuming you have any fitness at all, and are using one of your better stances, you should be able to turn that crit into some dented armor or ripped clothes. Even if you botch that roll, you have a Lightly Wounded Ring and you're not even Bleeding. Change stances and mess that fool up.

3 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

In fact, against low-Deadliness weapons, it's often a very good idea not to Defend, because then you stay in the fight. If your Fatigue is close to your Endurance, and your enemy hits you with a tetsubo or otsuchi, Defending against that hit is going to leave you Incapacitated for several rounds. While you're taking that Calming Breath to recover 1 Fatigue each round, he's going to draw his katana and finish you off.

You're better off spending a Void Point to not Defend, and take that Severity 3 Crit. Assuming you have any fitness at all, and are using one of your better stances, you should be able to turn that crit into some dented armor or ripped clothes. Even if you botch that roll, you have a Lightly Wounded Ring and you're not even Bleeding. Change stances and mess that fool up.

Incapacitated for multiple rounds, unwounded, best part of the game right here. very cinematic and fun.... /s

Thank you all for the answers and comments!

Considering the effects of "incapacitated" not stringent enough is probably on us, not the developers. In a strict dictionary definition, it means to be deprived of ones normal strength or capacity, or unable to function normally, which the Condition does actually do, but when we think of Incapacitated, most people probably think of the whole nine yards, unable to so anything under normal power or ability. Somebody probably popped open a dictionary while trying to name the status where you're unable to do things normally but are not "done" in a fight.

5 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Considering the effects of "incapacitated" not stringent enough is probably on us, not the developers. In a strict dictionary definition, it means to be deprived of ones normal strength or capacity, or unable to function normally, which the Condition does actually do, but when we think of Incapacitated, most people probably think of the whole nine yards, unable to so anything under normal power or ability. Somebody probably popped open a dictionary while trying to name the status where you're unable to do things normally but are not "done" in a fight.

The issue is the mechanical effect.

Thi s state just hinders the game, it might work in some type of more drama/social fights, but it falls totally flat in many other encounters.

It makes it almost impossible to end a fight with a critical blow. Its always the same thing, the opponent is down and then you decide if you slay then while they run around and talk.

Even if we change the "word" it doesn't matter. This condition limits the narrative possibilities instead of adding more, and that, is bad.

I think I see the intention behind it, and I agree some fights should end with a dramatic moment between the winner and the loser before deciding to spare them or not. But when it is always the case, it kinds of become weird. And honestly, unconscious condition can do that.

See that example: "Ok player 1 puts a bad evildoer incapacitated, then its player 2 turn, they just crit them with their mighty courtier fan, get 2 opps and eviscerate them." You see whats wrong here? Player 1 should have had the cinematic killing blow, if they wanted. But no, its always up to the non-combattants to "clean the trash" because it doesnt pose any threat while the bushi is trying to incapacitate the next big threat.

And that is only one example of in game atrocious narrative due to this condition.

Also, lets say you put an opponent incapacitated for like 5 rounds. You can do what you want with them and they pose no threat AT ALL. But they can still talk and move and stand up.

If the incapacitated condition adds +2 tn, you create more narrative options. Always leaving a choice to the incapacitated character to take "their last chance". They are winded down, but if they are not bleeding/dazed/compromised etc... They deserve to have a chance to do something aside from standing there, unwounded, and unable to do anything. With a void point you can even come back from unconscious and attempt that "last ditch effort". I have a lot of sessions under my belt now, and for us, there is no turning back. Incapacitated condition as RAW is garbage. And not only because of the word's definition. It simply doesn't add anything to the fun of the game, moreso, it takes away from it.

There is the classic martial art movie "scene" that the Incapacitated condition makes me unable to reproduce, and this was primarly my reason to tweak the Incapacitated condition.

People are fighting, then the good hero hits the bad hero which falls to their knee in pain, just before taking a last attempt at striking the good hero before being blocked and then killed.

What I mean is that the Incapacitated condition being a binary state, doesn't enable cinematic end of fights. I have watched my fair share of samurai movies and wuxia drama to know what style I want in my games, and the Incapacitated condition works against my narrative style, it actually limits your possibilities a lot in term of story telling.
Having a character of the verge of being beaten, but still able to act (albeit at increased TN), creates much more variety of end results. Obviously, if the character is bleeding and/or compromised and/or wounded and/or dazed etc on top of being Incapacitated, this becomes even more impossible to come back from it because the TN will be thru the roof. BUT, there is always that "1%" chance. And that gamble is what RPGs are all about. Binary states (Incapacitated condition, Earth Stance etc) are never good nor fun.

Another solution: Other party members can use ring opportunity results, healing, and techniques to remove strife from an incapacitated PC during conflicts (which necessitates bringing a well-rounded party of samurai to the game).

Also - would an incapacitated PC be able to use their meditation skill to recover fatigue equal to number of successes upon meeting a TN ( 1 fatigue removed on successful roll plus additional fatigue recovered per bonus successes )?

10 minutes ago, Vulcan64 said:

Another solution: Other party members can use ring opportunity results, healing, and techniques to remove strife from an incapacitated PC during conflicts (which necessitates bringing a well-rounded party of samurai to the game).

It wouldn't really fix the end of the fights. It still would be "stab them while they are unable to do anything" type of gameplay.

I "kind of" understand the stabbing of Unconscious characters, ok they can't do much they are KOed, you want to finish them..
But the free stabbing of Incapacitated characters who can run around and talk and keep doing whatever mundane activity they are doing? Is just ugly.

One should be able to do a finishing blow when the other character can still retaliate.

IF you are able to make that chance of retaliating lower (increased TN, compromised, bleeding etc) then it is even COOLER.
But making it "impossible", as cheaply binary as that... is bad design. Outside of the character being KOed, one should never be unable to do anything with a check but otherwise be fully functional and unwounded. You need to leave that little glimmer of hope in there, that 1%, whatever, so that a character can make a last ditch effort, no matter how difficult the odds are.

11 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

One should be able to do a finishing blow when the other character can still retaliate.

Using two opportunity symbols to inflict a critical strike on the same blow (roll) that put your opponent over their fatigue value might be that “finishing blow” and that’s in the RAW according to most of the responders to this thread ? I get your point however.

As the GM, I would have such incapacitated opponents concede defeat or run away or yield, being within the bounds of the Social code of Rokugan ( Shadowlands creatures and hardened criminals excepted ).

3 minutes ago, Vulcan64 said:

Using two opportunity symbols to inflict a critical strike on the same blow (roll) that put your opponent over their fatigue value might be that “finishing blow” and that’s in the RAW according to most of the responders to this thread ? I get your point however.

As the GM, I would have such incapacitated opponents concede defeat or run away or yield, being within the bounds of the Social code of Rokugan ( Shadowlands creatures and hardened criminals excepted ).

Agreed.
I still want to avoid as much as possible the "lets run around and stab the Incapacitated target" moments. They kinda stink.

As a GM, I do not take Incapacitated lightly. a +2tn, on top of other wounds or what not, will most often than not result in the opponent begging for mercy or running away. But, the POSSIBLITY of them going ham and taking a huge gamble in being ABLE to strike really ups the tension. Now, a character who wants to be mercyful is risking something (the opponent attacking them next turn). and that narrative edge feels really in tone with Wuxia and Samurai drama to me.
If the opponent is Incapacitated for like 4-5+ rounds... under RAW, it feels like a narrative waste. The possibilities are too few, and are too kind on the character making the choice of letting live or not the opponent.

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

There is the classic martial art movie "scene" that the Incapacitated condition makes me unable to reproduce, and this was primarly my reason to tweak the Incapacitated condition.

People are fighting, then the good hero hits the bad hero which falls to their knee in pain, just before taking a last attempt at striking the good hero before being blocked and then killed.

What I mean is that the Incapacitated condition being a binary state, doesn't enable cinematic end of fights. I have watched my fair share of samurai movies and wuxia drama to know what style I want in my games, and the Incapacitated condition works against my narrative style, it actually limits your possibilities a lot in term of story telling.
Having a character of the verge of being beaten, but still able to act (albeit at increased TN), creates much more variety of end results. Obviously, if the character is bleeding and/or compromised and/or wounded and/or dazed etc on top of being Incapacitated, this becomes even more impossible to come back from it because the TN will be thru the roof. BUT, there is always that "1%" chance. And that gamble is what RPGs are all about. Binary states (Incapacitated condition, Earth Stance etc) are never good nor fun.

Not actually disagreeing, but I'd like to offer something for your attention: the Calming Breath action.

You can take this action while Incapacitated, and since you will remove (at least) 1 fatigue, you will no longer be incapacitated.

It's far from a perfect fix, but it actually exists.

Just now, Tenebrae said:

Not actually disagreeing, but I'd like to offer something for your attention: the Calming Breath action.

You can take this action while Incapacitated, and since you will remove (at least) 1 fatigue, you will no longer be incapacitated.

It's far from a perfect fix, but it actually exists.

Yes, it can be 4-5 rounds of "calming breath" though. That is the 4-5 rounds which are weird with people stabbing fools running around without any "tension" because the danger is all but removed entierly.

Only 1 calming breath really doesn't mean you are back from Incapacitated. Maybe you thought so? Maybe I misread a rule?