3 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Only 1 calming breath really doesn't mean you are back from Incapacitated. Maybe you thought so? Maybe I misread a rule?

I thought (and think) so.

You remove one fatigue, which means you have fatigue less than your Endurance. Unless I've misunderstood something, that means you're no longer Incapacitated.

However:

Quote

Removed When: An Incapacitated character removes
this condition when their fatigue is reduced to a value
lower than or equal to their endurance.

You may be correct.

"Calming Breath: If your strife is greater than half your composure, you remove 1 strife. If your fatigue is greater than half your endurance, you remove 1 fatigue."

If that reduces you to your Endurance, you are un-incapacitated. So it works if a character with Endurance 10 has 11 Fatigue, for example.

If you have more than that, @Avatar111 is correct that you will need several calming breath actions (so, since you can't do it multiple times, Water stance doesn't really help and you might as well be in Air stance to protect yourself whilst you do*) or you need something more strenuous, like Warrior's Resolve (which can drop half a dozen or more fatigue at a go - depending on how honourable you are - but does require a void point to trigger).

* As an observation - it's mostly an issue with "PCs versus one big bad guy".

If you have multiple minions, then one being Incapacitated as written is fine - firstly the PCs have other opponents to worry about, so one opponent falling back to take a Calming Breath for several turns is probably a good thing, and secondly minions can still contribute to the fight; 90% of the time 'generic minion #2' will be performing an Assist action to give 'generic minion #1' an extra skill die on their Strike action, and being incapacitated doesn't change that.

It's when the nefarious adversary-level villain is incapacitated - and probably has no minions - that their inability to do anything but stand there like a lemon or move one range band is more noticeable.

3 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

"Calming Breath: If your strife is greater than half your composure, you remove 1 strife. If your fatigue is greater than half your endurance, you remove 1 fatigue."

If that reduces you to your Endurance, you are un-incapacitated. So it works if a character with Endurance 10 has 11 Fatigue, for example.

If you have more than that, @Avatar111 is correct that you will need several calming breath actions (so, since you can't do it multiple times, Water stance doesn't really help and you might as well be in Air stance to protect yourself whilst you do*) or you need something more strenuous, like Warrior's Resolve (which can drop half a dozen or more fatigue at a go - depending on how honourable you are - but does require a void point to trigger).

* As an observation - it's mostly an issue with "PCs versus one big bad guy".

If you have multiple minions, then one being Incapacitated as written is fine - firstly the PCs have other opponents to worry about, so one opponent falling back to take a Calming Breath for several turns is probably a good thing, and secondly minions can still contribute to the fight; 90% of the time 'generic minion #2' will be performing an Assist action to give 'generic minion #1' an extra skill die on their Strike action, and being incapacitated doesn't change that.

It's when the nefarious adversary-level villain is incapacitated - and probably has no minions - that their inability to do anything but stand there like a lemon or move one range band is more noticeable.

Minions don't become Incapacitated. They just are KO indefinitely, or, dead if it was a 7+ damage attack.
THANK GOD for that. It would be horrible to track and would make the Incapacitated Condition even more ridiculous.

Edit: The "stand there like a lemon or move one range band" was pretty funny. Most fights end up with a lemon. Lemonade of the Five Rings!

Sorry. Poor choice of words there, and wasn't thinking.

'Minion' as in 'Not a face-them-on-their-own named bad guy' , not necessarily a Minion as in the NPC class - which, you're quite correct, are Defeated instead of Incapacitated .

Scenes with a bunch of, say, Loyal Bushi, are not entirely unheard of (you can easily find yourself in such a fight in Wedding at Kyotei Castle , for example).

What I mean is that if there's a bunch of enemies, an Incapacitated one can still do something, but since their offensive output is limited by the current rules to Assist actions, they can only do something as long as they've got mates left, even though - in this case - Assist probably narratively represents them still trying to attack.

By comparison, a single enemy - even with a nominally equivalent combined threat rating - can't continue to fight on their own.

7 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Sorry. Poor choice of words there, and wasn't thinking.

'Minion' as in 'Not a face-them-on-their-own named bad guy' , not necessarily a Minion as in the NPC class - which, you're quite correct, are Defeated instead of Incapacitated .

Scenes with a bunch of, say, Loyal Bushi, are not entirely unheard of (you can easily find yourself in such a fight in Wedding at Kyotei Castle , for example).

What I mean is that if there's a bunch of enemies, an Incapacitated one can still do something, but since their offensive output is limited by the current rules to Assist actions, they can only do something as long as they've got mates left, even though - in this case - Assist probably narratively represents them still trying to attack.

By comparison, a single enemy - even with a nominally equivalent combined threat rating - can't continue to fight on their own.

Yeah, the scneario you mention is the worst case. A bunch of Adversaries in one skirmish is a total hassle of incongruity and bookeeping. I'd probably just consider the opponents defeated if they become incapacitated at this point though. Or, use my houserule.
Otherwise, if the PC do not want to kill them, they will run around slapping incapacitated lemon adversaries running around in water stance to put them unconscious lol.

How would you handle such encounter? Needing the PCs to finish the opponent ? Or do some kind of narrative ending ?

Minion damage question - let’s say a minion NPC takes 7 damage (5 base damage plus 2 bonus successes) from a yumi (bow), If the minion is an Ashigaru with armor resistance 3, does the minion stay in the fight since the armor blocked 3 of the 7 damage or does the minion go down or run away (etc.) since the source of the damage was 7?

The armour counts. So if the minion has more than 4 endurance, they stay in the fight.

Some are saying that if you defended you dont't take a critical strike even by going over Endurance Threshold thourgh the act of defending. Because a rule says you still can defend when not over you threshold.

BUT:

Quote

p.268 Corebook: When an effect deals damage to a character even after reductions, the character must defend against that damage; if they cannot, they suffer a critical strike with severity based on the damage source (the deadliness, for most weapons). To defend, they must receive an amount of fatigue equal to the remaining damage ; otherwise, they suffer a critical strike with severity based on the source.

Doesn't that mean, that even if you soaked damage and through that you go over your fatigue threshold you should take a critical strike. ?

Example:

Total Endurance: 12

Actual Endurance level : 10

Armor:2

You take a hit with 6 damage

You Reduce the damage to 4

So you have to defend 4 damge

Because you are under 12 actual endurance level you are able do defend.

So you take 4 damage

By doing this you go to Actual Endurance level: 14

Because the remaing damage is not sufficient to defend (you only have 2 remaining endurance and you have 4 damage to defend), should you not take a critical strike?

Otherwise,

it means that a character can suffer a critical strike only through 2 opportunites or must be first incapacitated before taking critical strikes ??(okay there are some techniques but I mean basically) Hiting someone just to do a critical because he is incapacitated is so honorable ( compassion breach and so on.. ) who would ever do that (unless your ennemy is not a member of the celestial order..)

This means also that a player can everytime control if he strikes criticals or not they can never "accidentally" do a critical ?? Even if he would endles explode dices by doing tremendous damage through bonus success??

25 minutes ago, Kelno said:

Some are saying that if you defended you dont't take a critical strike even by going over Endurance Threshold thourgh the act of defending. Because a rule says you still can defend when not over you threshold.

BUT:

Doesn't that mean, that even if you soaked damage and through that you go over your fatigue threshold you should take a critical strike. ?

Example:

Total Endurance: 12

Actual Endurance level : 10

Armor:2

You take a hit with 6 damage

You Reduce the damage to 4

So you have to defend 4 damge

Because you are under 12 actual endurance level you are able do defend.

So you take 4 damage

By doing this you go to Actual Endurance level: 14

Because the remaing damage is not sufficient to defend (you only have 2 remaining endurance and you have 4 damage to defend), should you not take a critical strike?

You do not take a critical strike when you go over your endurance while defending.
You take a critical strike when you CANNOT defend because your fatigue is ALREADY over your endurance.

on the subject of the minions, they do not "auto die" if they take 7 damage. A minion could have like 10 endurance, take a 7 damage hit, and still stand.

Sorry avatar edited my post after your reply

So this means that a character can suffer a critical strike only through 2 opportunites or must be first incapacitated before taking critical strikes ??(okay there are some techniques but I mean basically) Hiting someone just to do a critical because he is incapacitated is so honorable ( compassion breach and so on.. ) who would ever do that (unless your ennemy is not a member of the celestial order..)

This means also that a player can everytime control if he strikes criticals or not they can never "accidentally" do a critical ?? Even if he would endles explode dices by doing tremendous damage through bonus success??

Not sure if this is intended?

33 minutes ago, Kelno said:

Sorry avatar edited my post after your reply

So this means that a character can suffer a critical strike only through 2 opportunites or must be first incapacitated before taking critical strikes ??(okay there are some techniques but I mean basically) Hiting someone just to do a critical because he is incapacitated is so honorable ( compassion breach and so on.. ) who would ever do that (unless your ennemy is not a member of the celestial order..)

This means also that a player can everytime control if he strikes criticals or not they can never "accidentally" do a critical ?? Even if he would endles explode dices by doing tremendous damage through bonus success??

Not sure if this is intended?

It is intended. It is possible for someone to never do a critical strike. The only exception to that would be doing a finishing blow in a duel.

Personally I am really not a fan of the Incapacitated Condition and I think it is one of the biggest design flaw of the system. So, if you'd rather have a bit more tense gameplay and more cinematic end to fights, I suggest you check my houserule for it.

Note that incapacitated isn't "on your knees and helpless" so much as "winded and currently vulnerable to a lethal strike" - especially if the opponent is only incapacitated by a point or two of fatigue, it could well only last a few seconds.

But yes, it's deliberate (that was one thing that changed during the beta, if I recall). An adversary-level NPC who is incapacticated may either attempt to surrender or flee, or may try to recover and continue the fight (potentially yelling to minions to protect them*).

Essentially, it's always a deliberate choice in a skirmish to seriously wound someone (someone significant, anyway) instead of offering them the chance to surrender; because you must either have hit them when they are incapacitated or used an opportunity, title ability or technique to deliver a critical strike.

And yes, hitting a helpless opponent is arguably dishonourable, but I would point out that's not a reason you can't do it, it's a reason you should be offering them the chance to surrender first . If you make the offer and it's rejected, then by all means either stab the idiot with a clear conscience, or back away and let them get their breath back before resuming the fight (specifically identified as a minor sacrifice for Courtesy on page 302).

• Essentially:
  • Stab an incapacitated foe without giving them the chance to surrender they might credibly have taken - probably a trivial or minor breach, reducing your honour
  • Demand an incapacitated foe's surrender and stabbing them when they refuse - no change in honour; any failing is theirs not yours
  • Demand an incapacitated foe's surrender and allowing them a chance to recover when they refuse - beyond the usual expectations of bushido; gain honour

(obviously this assumes it's not a skirmish with multiple opponents and hence you could realistically accept their surrender)

In a duel, you do get finishing blows, and quick one-roll-duels are about the same in effect - these deliver automatic critical strikes which might be worse-than-planned (you just wanted to inflict Bleeding but they tanked their fitness roll and you did something far worse).

19 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

on the subject of the minions, they do not "auto die" if they take 7 damage. A minion could have like 10 endurance, take a 7 damage hit, and still stand.

Also defeated =/=dead (at least not necessarily); they are potentially unconscious, crippled, or otherwise removed from the fight but not necessarily 'dead' - which may matter if you have any particularly pressing questions you wish to ask the survivors (e.g. " why were you lot trying to kill us ?").

They are only defeated if Fatigue > Endurance (the same threshold which incapacitates PCs or Adversary NPCs). When they are defeated, if the source of damage which defeated them was 7 damage or more, they're considered definitely totally dead , so trying to 'question' the individual reduced to a stain on the floor would be a waste of time. Other minions may or may not die of wounds, bleeding and general unpleasantness as the post-skirmish narrative demands, but those dispatched in this way are definitely not surviving.

Note also that Damage=/=Fatigue. A Trained Ashigaru being hit by a Tetsubo would suffer 4 Fatigue (damage 7 less physical resistance 3), and with Endurance 6 would not be defeated. Hit them again, and they would not only be defeated but would be defeated in a fatal manner, because whilst they only suffered 4 Fatigue from the hit, they took 7 damage, and that's what lethal/non-lethal defeat is judged on.

* Especially those with the Get Them, You Fools! ability....