8 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Star Trek Discovery, The Hobbit movies, and Primarius Marines.

Seems ruined enough for me. At least to the point where I am not interested in the continuation of those stories.

NGL, the Hobbit movies lost me pretty hard, and I remain uneasy about Primaris. With Hobbit, it chafed me how a smaller, simpler story than LOTR got dragged out so dang long. With Primaris, I keep debating if it fundamentally undermines the flavor of 40k to flip the attitudes toward tech from “Ancient stuff = precious” to Belisarius Cawl T-posing over Mars.

I think the Star Wars sequels continued similar themes to earlier movies, but probably lost a lot of people by showing that our victorious heroes ended up failing in significant ways over the long run. That said, I think that’s also part of the appeal for others, myself included.

(I’ve no opinion on Discovery other than that it loses goodwill with me by virtue of being stuck behind some upstart subscription service that I don’t otherwise need and that I’m not signing up for.)

Sorry I didn't post often. There's a lot of catch up but in the interest of trying desperately to keep it succinct I'll hopefully be brief?

@ChahDresh good point that she says someone will have to be the pilot. And for the stunt they pull off (sensor blocking the evacuation flotilla with the bulk of the Raddus? Which was a cool concept I did like mind you, huzzah! Still on topic!) yeah that makes sense. Unfortunately, she says that on an empty ship traveling in a straight line. Which is why it still, even on first viewing, breaks my suspension of disbelief, and ask why is my cool black dude dead? And my feeling in it was exactly as our friendo @Red Castle points out, it's just to give weight to the chase. Make the bad guys look bad. Because let's be real, it's the longest slowest car chase in Cinema history next to Fury Road. Then later when we have another climax with rose saving Finn, and she drops the theme in our lap of not destroying hate, saving love. In that first view I was again like 'what about that Captain!?' I'm sorry but I just can't get there that it wasn't anything but a huge flaw in the movie.

On the security/spy/mutiny issue, I think there's a ton of great commentary on here. But expanding the scope a bit, it's not just that they paint Holdo as a bad leader for not telling Poe, she's not telling anyone. They don't name a new Captain of black squad, their only strong squad, and then pull that person aside. They don't seem to tell any of the rest of the crew leads. The reason it seems they, Poe AND his squad who all did this together, can even pull off the removal from command is that they agree with Poe. They need a plan, and it needs to be known. Holdo to me fails as a leader because she can't instill that confidence, assure her people, and recover a command structure. Pile on that her attitude of saying one thing to people's faces, and another behind their back, and dude, I just don't like her and when she offs herself it falls flat emotionally because all I can think it's well, at least she's gone. Granted, one of the best shot/scored scenes in Cinema was that hyper impact. (Ohhhh yeahhhhh, still on topic) unfortunately it only severed as eye candy to me and I didn't have any emotional response to it other than ooh shiny, universe broken.

Also, can anyone realistically tell me why on a SSD size Mon Cal ship we don't have a Mon Cal Captain replacement who didn't get wasted on the bridge? No? yeah I didn't think so. Of course, we put the white woman there.

Tack on to that even if we assume this maneuver is hard, that she got it one in a million, by herself, in a few seconds, which I don't buy at all, where is any other use of this concept? Even a bulky torpedo would cause massive damage and could pull this off easy with a Droid-like brain.

Like, every time you turn around in this movie you get slapped with an incongruous throw away scene, that doesn't even work in the universe. And after TFA I went into that movie with four check boxes: lasers, spaceships, laser swords, magic. And then they bucked those up so I watched the story, and it didn't track either.

Dude, there's like enough folks here we need keg at this point. *Rolls in mini fridge*

@ForceSensitive ah, but does Holdo tell no one? Can you determine how many people she told or did not tell? Almost everyone in the flotilla falls in line with Holdo's plan. It is only Poe and a handful of his pilots and friends that plot this alternative. It beggars belief that she told everyone, and yet her leadership worked just fine for everyone but Poe and a few people he could sway/that felt personal loyalty towards him. What's different between Poe and literally the rest of the Resistance? Poe being a trigger-happy flyboy, that's what.

You wouldn't expect Holdo to tell the fighter pilots because at that point they have no fighters, ergo they have no role in executing the plan. Telling the pilots increases the risk of the plan spilling to no net benefit, something Poe *should* understand because that's how military organizations (especially covert ones like the Resistance) operate.

You don't have to like Holdo. A lot of strife in this fandom comes from people demanding others like what they like or hate what they hate. However you feel personally about Holdo, though, let's not pretend that her choices were illogical or wrong. Poe screwed up, and his screw-up undid Holdo's plan. That Poe can recover from that screw-up into someone worth following is a testament to him, and part of the movie's thesis of failure being the best teacher.

You don't need anyone to tell you why Holdo ascends to leadership. They say on-screen how their chain of command operates.

You can review my notes on the Holdo maneuver earlier in the thread, but the key points are that ramming damage and the range of the attack are both proportional to mass. To deal damage, a small thing like a torp would have to get right up on its target, at which point explosives probably do more harm.

35 minutes ago, ChahDresh said:

However you feel personally about Holdo, though, let's not pretend that her choices were illogical or wrong. Poe screwed up, and his screw-up undid Holdo's plan. That Poe can recover from that screw-up into someone worth following is a testament to him, and part of the movie's thesis of failure being the best teacher.

Thank you so much for your posts,but especially this part!

On 12/26/2019 at 8:07 PM, dsul413 said:

Edit: I've definitely launched for missions without the details. ****, I've flown entire missions without knowing what I was accomplishing except for the specific thing my crew was being asked to do, and never found out the actual impact of the sortie. I wanted it, sure, but I still had enough a sense of duty to follow orders

Whilst Poe is being stupid too, one point worth making is that from his perspective, it's not that he doesn't agree with the plan so much as there appears to be no plan; saying "follow my orders" and "stick to your stations" is fine in theory but needs to be accompanied by some orders, especially if the person in question currently has no station (as the CAG after the flight deck has been wasted).

This isn't a "plot hole" so much as bad management from Holdo, in the same way Poe is inarguably foolish and insubordinate (technically he was right to press on and destroy Canady's dreadnought but we only know that in hindsight - since no-one knew the first order could track them - so it doesn't count) - Leia's order was clear and unambiguous so ignoring it justified his demotion (at a minimum)

As a side observation: it's not just bad management generally, it's really bad management in the specific context of the Resistance; this isn't a 'proper' military any more than the early Rebel alliance, and Poe is exactly the sort of over-optimistic hothead you see throughout the organisation's history, from Ezra to Jyn to Han to Lando and the Rogues to Anakin in the days of the Jedi - you can't serve in the organisation and not know the personality type: if they see a problem they think is not being handled they're going to try and do something - either tell them the plan and give them something to do OR lock them in the brig: if you just leave them to their own devices they will cook up a crazy plan of their own which may not align with yours.

I do try to separate our things I see as "problem with how the films show the universe" to "person in universe acts stupidly" - I agree, I don't have to like the latter, but if you start from the principle that (for example) Hux is a vicious little cretin, you don't then have to defend him doing stupid things...

@Magnus Grendel You make some interesting points, especially with regards to Poe being a Jyn or Anakin Anakin. To some extent we can say that Holdo and Poe not knowing each other is a big factor here. Poe knows her only by reputation; it's hard to know what Holdo knew of Poe. The thing is, again, Poe has done plenty of covert ops before. We now know he smuggled in the past, meaning that while he (like Han) may be hot headed, he also knows when to play it cool. If she knows him by service record alone (likely), then it's wholly plausible she'd assume he gets the point.

I mean, she does say "there is a plan" in so many words IIRC. And let's not forget that Poe staged his mutiny after seeing the transports being fuelled, and the prospect of losing the Raddus tilted him.

Interestingly, it might have been better off if the Dreadnought attack failed. Because it succeeded, Poe was able to claim victory, and Leia's critique bounced off of him. If it had failed, maybe he gets the memo then, and never sends Finn and Rose on their desperate sortie. That, in turn, means they never communicate with Poe in the presence of the slicer, get sold out, and get exposed. That, in turn, would mean the Resistance personnel get away clean. If Leia wasn't willing to trade the bombers for a Dreadnought, she'd certainly prefer this outcome.

Ah, but then what would have disrupted the Rey-Kylo standoff in the throne room and permitted Rey to escape? Oh, what tangled webs we weave.

44 minutes ago, ChahDresh said:

Interestingly, it might have been better off if the Dreadnought attack failed. Because it succeeded, Poe was able to claim victory, and Leia's critique bounced off of him. If it had failed, maybe he gets the memo then, and never sends Finn and Rose on their desperate sortie. That, in turn, means they never communicate with Poe in the presence of the slicer, get sold out, and get exposed. That, in turn, would mean the Resistance personnel get away clean. If Leia wasn't willing to trade the bombers for a Dreadnought, she'd certainly prefer this outcome.

Ah, but then what would have disrupted the Rey-Kylo standoff in the throne room and permitted Rey to escape? Oh, what tangled webs we weave.

A rather more fundamental change than that. If the dreadnought isn't destroyed, the "chase scene" lasts the time required for Canady to prime the Fulminatrix's autocannons, and then the Raddus is blown to gak before it can extend the range to a survivable distance.

That's not a fair measure for judging Poe's action by, I hasten to add - your actions should only be judged by what you knew at the time, and hyperspace tracking is supposed to be impossible.

On 12/26/2019 at 1:38 PM, Marinealver said:

Star Trek Discovery, The Hobbit movies, and Primarius Marines.

Seems ruined enough for me. At least to the point where I am not interested in the continuation of those stories.

But, that isn't the whole of the future of those franchises, are they? I can understand having things kill your enthusiasm for a certain franchise. Denning did a good number on my Star Wars enthusiasm, along with the cancellation of the few remaining things I was enjoying. But that never changed how much I enjoyed the stuff I enjoyed. Yeah, bad stuff can still come out. But I fail to see how bad new stuff makes the stuff you enjoyed previously bad.

On 12/28/2019 at 3:27 PM, Sithborg said:

But, that isn't the whole of the future of those franchises, are they? I can understand having things kill your enthusiasm for a certain franchise. Denning did a good number on my Star Wars enthusiasm, along with the cancellation of the few remaining things I was enjoying. But that never changed how much I enjoyed the stuff I enjoyed. Yeah, bad stuff can still come out. But I fail to see how bad new stuff makes the stuff you enjoyed previously bad.

Just like the new movies don't make the prequels any good, the new stuff doesn't make the old movies bad, but here is the thing, you cannot make anything enjoyable of the franchise unless you get the blessing (mainly through exorbitant tribute) from these IP holders, and they don't care about making anything enjoyable or good, they only care about the money. Any project that had actual passion behind it is threatened by all this new consumer content which isn't worth the price they are demanding, heck you don't even have to be selling it you can make it for free just out of passion and then get slapped by a stack of papers from their army of lawyers. Case & Point see below.

So yes, this new stuff is ruining the franchise and those that enjoy it are just easy marks who still feed this monster which needs to die of starvation. So yes the new content is ruining the enjoyment of the franchise and the fans of this unworthy content are keeping it going.

Yep this is keeping me and many others from enjoying the franchise.

That is amazing arrogant of you. You not liking something doesn't mean all fans need to share your views.

As for fan projects, whatever. As a MST3K fan would say, "keep passing the tapes"

3 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Just like the new movies don't make the prequels any good, the new stuff doesn't make the old movies bad, but here is the thing, you cannot make anything enjoyable of the franchise unless you get the blessing (mainly through exorbitant tribute) from these IP holders, and they don't care about making anything enjoyable or good, they only care about the money. Any project that had actual passion behind it is threatened by all this new consumer content which isn't worth the price they are demanding, heck you don't even have to be sellign it oyu cna make it for free just out of passion and then get slapped by a stack of papers from their army of lawyers. Case & Point see below.

So yes, this new stuff is ruining the franchise and those that enjoy it are just easy marks who still feed this monster which needs to die of starvation. So yes the new content is ruining the enjoyment of the franchise and the fans of this unworthy content are keeping it going.

Yep this is keeping me and many others from enjoying the franchise.

oh my gods just start a youtube channel

On a positive note, I highly recommend Knives Out. Even to the haters.

1 hour ago, Sithborg said:

On a positive note, I highly recommend Knives Out. Even to the haters.

Incredible film.

5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

That's not a fair measure for judging Poe's action by, I hasten to add - your actions should only be judged by what you knew at the time, and hyperspace tracking is supposed to be impossible.

This caveat by you makes me so happy. I've been trying to tell people this for years. What's the joke about football commentary? 50% of it boils down to saying the team should have ran if it passed or should have passed if it ran...

In fairness "based on what I knew at the time" is more normally appealed to in courts by the defence when you did something which later turns out to have been the wrong choice, but that doesn't mean the logic doesn't cut both ways...

12 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Just like the new movies don't make the prequels any good, the new stuff doesn't make the old movies bad, but here is the thing, you cannot make anything enjoyable of the franchise unless you get the blessing (mainly through exorbitant tribute) from these IP holders, and they don't care about making anything enjoyable or good, they only care about the money. Any project that had actual passion behind it is threatened by all this new consumer content which isn't worth the price they are demanding, heck you don't even have to be sellign it oyu cna make it for free just out of passion and then get slapped by a stack of papers from their army of lawyers. Case & Point see below.

So yes, this new stuff is ruining the franchise and those that enjoy it are just easy marks who still feed this monster which needs to die of starvation. So yes the new content is ruining the enjoyment of the franchise and the fans of this unworthy content are keeping it going.

Yep this is keeping me and many others from enjoying the franchise.

Intellectual property law requires IP holders to aggressively defend their IP from infringement, or they may be considered to tacitly surrender or weaken their ownership. George Lucas was being very generous by allowing Star Wars fan films to be made because of this; it doesn't follow that all IP holders should be as generous. I don't know if Disney has a track record of smacking down fan works with cease & desists, but anyone entrusted with an IP that cost over 4 billion dollars can hardly be blamed for being careful with it.

PS - the expression is "case in point" not case and point. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.collinsdictionary.com/amp/english/a-case-in-point

The last part of your post is just spite - if Star Wars doesn't cater to what you want then you'd rather it died off.

On 12/19/2019 at 11:17 PM, McFoy said:

I appreciate that TLJ was so **** that it caused even disney to recognize that the **** EU lore was the best bet for a sequel trilogy.

I also appreciate the many hours of entertainment it created by letting me read people try to justify its merits and failing.

Wozzers, you were not kidding. Cheers to to the next many hours!

(man holidays or a wrench in my online activities lol)

I too am with the opinion that Poes arc doesn't really jive either. I mean at this point we're just moving the discussion from one side of the equation to the other. From Holdo, to Poe. And the weird part for me is I went back and tried to catch up on the Resistance cartoon after watching TLJ, and now poes decisions make a lot less sense all over to me.

Again, too my point, that really none of the characters actions in TLJ make sense. And I do mean any of them. I want trying to sound like I may have played favorites here.

Like, the cartoon paints him as a hot shot who still had the full picture in mind, and was fully Integrated into the command structure, knew to go up command. And then 7 made him out to be allowable capable of that while on mission to find Luke. And then 8-Poe is just... hot head Pilot dude? (Realistically though I'm only through season one, maybe they change his character over a few seasons?)

And the loses at dquar or whatever were just as much Leia's fault for giving the go ahead in my mind. It felt to me that his demotion, while somewhat sensible, was too rash a decision on Leia's side. Like, they both had a part in this. Poes enthusiasm for the pyhric victory seemed odd though so I kinda will work out on moral grounds. Again, like all the actions taken in 8 are head tilters.

But, my friend @ChahDresh , I feel we lost the momentum of our run here. I get the feeling we could be at this for days (already were lol) but really how far do we want to dig for justifications and explanations for all this. You like the movie. I didn't. We had a good time talking about it.

I'll end it on at least one positive note. I loved the deleted scene with Luke trolling Rey about the 'attack' on their little island. That was a really good developmental scene for Rey and Luke, and was smack bang on how I would imagine Lukes teaching to be. Very Yoda troll. Like it's the only scene where we got to see Luke laugh too. It would've been a good moment top see Rey get that lesson of perspective. Too bad it got cut. Honestly both 7 and 8 I feel were laying dead in the editing room with how great their deleted scenes were compared to what we actually got.

18 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

I'll end it on at least one positive note. I loved the deleted scene with Luke trolling Rey about the 'attack' on their little island. That was a really good developmental scene for Rey and Luke, and was smack bang on how I would imagine Lukes teaching to be. Very Yoda troll. Like it's the only scene where we got to see Luke laugh too. It would've been a good moment top see Rey get that lesson of perspective. Too bad it got cut.

I would agree about the deleted scenes. Phasma's deleted scene in The Last Jedi and Leia/Korrie's arcs in The Force Awakens are both great bits that I really wish had been kept.

Finn's bit in the turbolift was - honestly - a bit silly, but it did humanise the stormtroopers other than Finn and I rather liked it for that reason.

Which, I guess, is probably why it got cut - you're not supposed to empathise with the main characters' target practice. In the same way the Evil Empire is Evil Because George Lucas Said So (I'm not defending its actions - but whilst Tarkin deserved what he got, should you be cheering at Mr Stevens in the canteen* getting vaporised when the first death star blew up).

* Gratuitous Eddie Izzard reference.

To be fair, I didn't make it much past the first page; but man, what a bugzapper this is for hateful weirdos.

"Here's a post where someone enjoys something that I don't. Rather than clicking on another link or doing anything else to bring joy into my life, I will instead take time out of my day to explain why this this thing is bad and they are dumb. Then maybe other bitter internet people will think I am clever."

I will add in, my favorite part in TLJ is when Poe tells Finn, "You must have a million questions." Finn only has one...

1 hour ago, Whalers on the moon said:

I will add in, my favorite part in TLJ is when Poe tells Finn, "You must have a million questions." Finn only has one...

...and it wasn't even "HOW DID YOU FIX MY SPINE??!"

Finn. Man, what a waste of a character. So much potential.

I liked Kylo Ren without his shirt, really huge character development for him, plus got him a girlfriend in less then 10 minutes. Virgin Finn vs Chad Kylo ?

15 hours ago, EnsignTuna said:

I liked Kylo Ren without his shirt, really huge character development for him, plus got him a girlfriend in less then 10 minutes. Virgin Finn vs Chad Kylo ?

I haven't seen savagery that bad since the Mandalorian War 😬 😯 😳

😝

17 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

...and it wasn't even "HOW DID YOU FIX MY SPINE??!"

Finn. Man, what a waste of a character. So much potential.

To be fair, it's not like borderline magical healing tech is new to the universe. Normal troopers might not rate bacta treatment because we're-the-good-guys-and-they're-the-bad-guys but I'd imagine they'd know about it.

For that matter, since we're told the First Order basically drafts young children as recruits from outer rim planets and they live and train on the ships, they're probably better educated in general about naval technology than most people in the universe. I have a mental image of 'class 4B' having a school trip to the medical deck at the other end of the destroyer...

18 hours ago, Whalers on the moon said:

To be fair, I didn't make it much past the first page; but man, what a bugzapper this is for hateful weirdos.

"Here's a post where someone enjoys something that I don't. Rather than clicking on another link or doing anything else to bring joy into my life, I will instead take time out of my day to explain why this this thing is bad and they are dumb. Then maybe other bitter internet people will think I am clever."

The most fun these past movies have been was the banter afterwards. I don't think I've ever posted on this forum with hate in my heart even if certain persons think I'm abusive. It's okay, I forgive them though.