2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

There is some wiggle room in that though.

I do generally agree with you, but it is sufficiently possible for there to be differences in ammo that it isn't quite that cut-and-dried. She does refer to them as being very rare, which I take to mean that you can't readily buy ammo for them anyway, so it is fairly likely that you'd have to seek out the same armorer who originally made you the weapon in order to get more ammo.

Armor piercing bullets are also pretty rare and hard to get, as are Hollow Point rounds, However, they're still manufactured to a standard size (.38 cal, .44 cal, 5.56 mm, 7.62 mm, etc). So, it wouldn't be the size of the projectile which is rare, but the specific type, such as what materials it is made from or special capabilities a particular round has beyond standard.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That doesn't wash. As a rule ammunition has to be standardized to a certain degree, particularly since a weapon will need to be reloaded after the ammo runs out, and that means being able to purchase it wherever you are at the time. A ranged weapon is pretty useless if you can't readily get ammunition for it. Even if a weaponsmith does manufacture his or her own ammunition, it is still going to be based upon standard sizes . So, any Whistling Bird ammo is going to be one standard size.

Nope. Nothing has to be standardized. It's generally a better idea, but we plainly see that at least these Mandalorians prefer their armors non-standard and personalized. Standardization is mostly relevant for mass production. If you're more comfortable looking up a craftsman that can make you exactly what you need, that's fine too. Might be a bit of a bother if you need repairs, as you might have to hand fit replacement parts, but it's the way it was done for most of human history up until a century and half ago. It's not a way that's modern or effective for mass production, but if your priority is to get something of high quality personalized for your needs, it works. Gels pretty well with Mandalorians seemingly being more like individual warriors than organized soldiers.

It may seem archaic to us, but that's par for the course with Star Wars. The same episode shows us Mandalorian armor being forged by hand, with a hammer. The episode before that shows us that Mandalorian armor isn't simply solid metal plates, but has internal circuitry and stuff inside the plates. High tech stuff is built, by hand, from scratch by artisans in Star Wars.

Besides, given that we've seen at the very most, possibly, a grand total of two separate whistling bird launchers, it hardly rules out any and all standardization. It might only mean that there are two different standard ammo types. It's like concluding that there isn't any standardization of pistol cartridges because the only two pistols you ever saw was a 9mm and a .45.

The long and short of it, is that your argument is that one specific thing is completely impossible, while mine is that it might be possible (I haven't even claimed it's plausible ). Given how little information we have to work with, your are going to have work a lot harder to prove your absolutist position. I mean, the burden of proof is all on you buddy, since my position is basically just arguing that the proof is inconclusive.

There is an issue with your argument in that armor of that style must be tailor made to the individuals, and there are different styles of armor for different purposes. Weapons are different in that they don't need to be tailor made to fit a person or fit a person's role, particularly as it is mounted to his wrist, so ergonomics aren't even a consideration as that would be covered by the gauntlet. A tailor made part of the armor.

We've been told that it is a micro-rocket, and logically, it appears to be a micro-rocket. Certainly not a whistling-bird launcher. We don't have to prove that it isn't, any more than you have to prove that it is. That said, you have to do mental gymnastics to maintain the likelihood that it is, given the variety of issues from a spatial stand-point that have been pointed out. Aside from the fact that the micro-rocket has all the hallmarks of a rocket. Warhead, det-pin, thruster, mount.

6 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

There is an issue with your argument in that armor of that style must be tailor made to the individuals, and there are different styles of armor for different purposes. Weapons are different in that they don't need to be tailor made to fit a person or fit a person's role, particularly as it is mounted to his wrist, so ergonomics aren't even a consieration as that would be covered by the gauntlet. A tailor made part of the armor.

Different strokes for different folks. Handgunners still haven't agreed on the one cartridge to rule them all (never mind the specific loading of that cartridge) and there are still the yahoos who swear by their own handloaded cartridges in oddball calibers. Given Mandy's rather eclectic arsenal, (really, how is that rifle more practical than a blaster rifle that also pretty much always drops people in a single hit?) it seems that mandalorians, or at least the mandalorian, leans a bit towards the yahoo side of the spectrum. Personalization is about a lot more than ergonomics, but personal preference and perceived needs. A .500 S&W revolver is generally a fairly impractical sidearm, but if you perceive PCP smoking grizzly bears as a valid concern, it makes perfect sense. Do you want a bigger bulkier launcher on your forearm for more firepower, or perhaps a smaller one to balance out already having a flamethrower on that hand as well? Is the big one too big but the small one too small? Can you get a custom one that's just in between that would satisfy you? Push that kind of thinking to it's extreme and you end up with someone handcrafting all your stuff for them to be just right in every way. No compromises.

Not that they're completely impractical, the mandalorians blaster pistol seem pretty standard, and another mandalorian in Ep 3 was wielding a DH-17, which may be the least exotic blaster in the franchise.

26 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

We've been told that it is a micro-rocket, and logically, it appears to be a micro-rocket. Certainly not a whistling-bird launcher. We don't have to prove that it isn't, any more than you have to prove that it is. That said, you have to do mental gymnastics to maintain the likelihood that it is, given the variety of issues from a spatial stand=point that have been pointed out. Aside from the fact that the micro-rocket has all the hallmarks of a rocket. Warhead, det-pin, thruster, mount.

Perfectly valid and logical arguments. What a welcome change of pace. Exactly, you don't have to prove it's a missile beyond any and all doubt, because you were clever and tactful enough not express yourself in complete and absolute terms, plant your flag and prepare to die there. I agree with you, it most likely is a micro-missile, and I'll consider at such until it's claimed otherwise. Has the door been opened for possibly retconning it into a whistling bird launcher? I think yes. I don't expect it to happen, but I won't be surprised if it does.

I think the Mandalorian is there pretty much to replace everyone's favorite bucket head bounty hunter, and I don't expect to see much more of Boba Fett in the spotlight in the foreseeable future. Then again, with both a Cassian Andor series and an Obi-wan series coming up, I might be wrong, Regardless, I don't think we'll see him using his microwhistling rocketbird launcher, making the discussion somewhat moot apart from geeking out over pointless details. Which might of course be why we're all here.

Aaaanyways...

Regarding the original post, the underbarrel flamethrower attachment could basically be hijacked for use as a Mandalorian gauntlet flamethrower. If you disregard it needing a rifle-sized weapon to mount to, it fills the role pretty well. Either use it as an armor attachment, mount it on a weapon that already has a wrist mount, or mount it on some type of gauntlet like weapon. Not 100% RAW, but saves the trouble of writing stuff from scratch.

On 12/2/2019 at 8:37 PM, penpenpen said:

Regarding the original post, the underbarrel flamethrower attachment could basically be hijacked for use as a Mandalorian gauntlet flamethrower. If you disregard it needing a rifle-sized weapon to mount to, it fills the role pretty well. Either use it as an armor attachment, mount it on a weapon that already has a wrist mount, or mount it on some type of gauntlet like weapon. Not 100% RAW, but saves the trouble of writing stuff from scratch.

There is not currently a wrist-mounted flamethrower attachment, but in the profiles for various official NPCs, there are stats for a "Compact Flame Projector" which would fill the role. It would presumably be 1 HP like the other wrist-mounted armor attachments.

One thing I've noticed (not necessarily from you) is that people have said "It's too OP and lets you ignore armor HP limits, also, here's how you can do the exact same thing RAW for less armor HP and for much more complication"

I understand some of the concerns, but if the party is cool with it*, I think it's fun, simple, makes sense, and reflects what we see pretty well.

*If only one of the PCs is Mandalorian, the GM might want to not use this, because even though I think it's fine for full-Mando parties, I can see where it would be an issue in mixed groups. Sort of like how in the 1-soon-2 Mando-centric Heroic-level campaigns I'm running, I've let the Mando PCs pick up Mandalorian Armor for 2,500 credits Similar to the Weapons of Tradition rules for lightsabers. That probably wouldn't go well in a mixed campaign because of how strong Mandalorian armor is.

Now to the Whistling Birds: I've given it some thought, and I have an idea as to how it can be done. It is a little more clunky than my original proposal, but here it is: Same damage stats, but change the skill to Computers. Give it LA 12.

To fire, the character designates a number of targets up to remaining ammo and makes an Average Computers check (with the attack difficulty of the toughest opponent). If they hit, they can spend 1 Advantage to trigger a hit on a designated target.

This would mean that the Mandalorian would have needed a roll of 2s3a to take out all 4 Starmtroopers.

18 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Different strokes for different folks. Handgunners still haven't agreed on the one cartridge to rule them all (never mind the specific loading of that cartridge) and there are still the yahoos who swear by their own handloaded cartridges in oddball calibers. Given Mandy's rather eclectic arsenal, (really, how is that rifle more practical than a blaster rifle that also pretty much always drops people in a single hit?) it seems that mandalorians, or at least the mandalorian, leans a bit towards the yahoo side of the spectrum. Personalization is about a lot more than ergonomics, but personal preference and perceived needs. A .500 S&W revolver is generally a fairly impractical sidearm, but if you perceive PCP smoking grizzly bears as a valid concern, it makes perfect sense. Do you want a bigger bulkier launcher on your forearm for more firepower, or perhaps a smaller one to balance out already having a flamethrower on that hand as well? Is the big one too big but the small one too small? Can you get a custom one that's just in between that would satisfy you? Push that kind of thinking to it's extreme and you end up with someone handcrafting all your stuff for them to be just right in every way. No compromises.

I disagree. Here what you've shown is that they pick-and-choose what ammo they use for what weapons, with plenty of cross-compatibility and overlap. With a super-rare, super-specialized type of weapon, the likelihood is that there would not be a ton of ammo options or models. That said, the options that exist would probably be more about explosive darts, or poisoned darts, etc. rather than entirely different shapes and sizes. That said, I can see your point and it's pretty close to being a direct comparison, though as I said, I still think it's lacking.

The reason I brought up ergonomics was simply to say that they didn't need to adjust the weapon to make it fit or feel comfortable, painting a contrast with the armor.

11 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

There is not currently a wrist-mounted flamethrower attachment, but in the profiles for various official NPCs, there are stats for a "Compact Flame Projector" which would fill the role. It would presumably be 1 HP like the other wrist-mounted armor attachments.

Any idea which book that's in?

Probably in Allies and Adversaries, but the book I encountered it in was Collapse of the Republic in the statblock for Cad Bane.

6 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Probably in Allies and Adversaries, but the book I encountered it in was Collapse of the Republic in the statblock for Cad Bane.

Yeah, Boba Fett has one as well in A&A.

The problem with that is that it is Legends, and therefore impermissible.

3 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The problem with that is that it is Legends, and therefore impermissible.

MM9 mini Concussion Missile Launcher Canon. The same picture is used.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

MM9 mini Concussion Missile Launcher Canon. The same picture is used.

Alrighty then. I guess that settles it.

20 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

There is not currently a wrist-mounted flamethrower attachment, but in the profiles for various official NPCs, there are stats for a "Compact Flame Projector" which would fill the role. It would presumably be 1 HP like the other wrist-mounted armor attachments.

I just don't get why everyone gets so hung up on it being written into the armor as a game mechanic. Especially since FFGs Star Wars is a narrative system. A hands-free weapon system can easily be a wrist mounted weapon on a vambrace. A vambrace is worn as part of armor. So, narratively it's now a part of the armor. No jumping through hoops, no making OP equipment. Just an ability to look at things from a different point of view.

Looking through Gadgets and Gear, I would say the closest thing to Whistling Birds is the Flechette Micro-Rocket. I would probably just change the Limited ammo rating and add Guided 1.

Not sure how to change Limited Ammo though. It's definitely fire once and reload but from the one scene that we watched, he only launched 4 of the 13(?) missiles that it stores. I'd almost forgo the Autofire setting but I don't have anything better to replace it with. Maybe do Blast (X) where x can be the number of rockets fired.

However it's written, I think this would need a custom attack rule written for it.

On 12/2/2019 at 8:56 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

It is a little more clunky than my original proposal, but here it is: Same damage stats, but change the skill to Computers. Give it LA 12.

To fire, the character designates a number of targets up to remaining ammo and makes an Average Computers check. If they hit, they can spend 1 Advantage to trigger a hit on a designated target.

This would mean that the Mandalorian would have needed a roll of 2s3a to take out all 4 Starmtroopers.

@Varlie , like this? What do you think?

Yeah, I must have missed that. I would say you would have to use the attack difficulty of the toughest target as well

Oh, yeah. Of course. I should have added that. It was my intention, I just missed it. Thanks!

So updating your original post, I'm not sure I would drop the increase in difficulty but I wouldn't add it per additional target, I would just increase it once per fire as these are indirect/guided missiles and continue to use Ranged(Light), only because he may use a targeter in his helmet do designate targets, he is still making a regular attack and most targeters just add a boost to Ranged(Light/Heavy) or Gunnery.

Quote

"Whistling Birds": (Very much a WIP, not ready for prime-time yet)
(Custom) Vambrace Attachment: (Ranged [Light]; Damage 4; Critical 2; Range [Short]; Auto-fire (only), Guided 2, Limited Ammo 1, Pierce 5. (R) 1,000/9. Additional qualities: Does not increase the difficulty to use Auto-fire. The cost to purchase additional ammo is 100 credits with a rarity equal to the weapon. It takes an action to reload the weapon.
For this weapon, I've got a couple other thoughts: Reduce the cost to activate Auto-fire by 1, and removing the additional quality of not increasing the difficulty for Auto-fire.
I'm leaning towards adding the first one, but I'm not sure about the second; this weapon seems to be very powerful, and since it is a Limited Ammo 1 weapon, I don't think it is necessary to nerf it all that much. Particularly as it is mostly going to be effective against Minions, though I see how 1 Advantage Auto-Fire (if I add that) can be abused against bigger, badder, characters.
I'm also looking for advise on pricing it and pricing its ammo, as well as reloading. This is the most complicated of the weapons I've statted.

"Whistling Birds": (Very much a WIP, not ready for prime-time yet)
(Custom) Vambrace Attachment: (Ranged [Light]; Damage 4; Critical 2; Range [Short]; Guided 2, Limited Ammo 12, Pierce 5. (R) 1,000/9.
Designate targets up to 12 (or remaining missiles if previously fired). If firing at more than one target, the initial target must always be the target with the highest difficulty and highest defense. Increase the difficulty of the attack once if designating more than 1 target. Make a Ranged(Light) attack based on the most difficult target. It takes 1 Advantage to hit an additional target and advantages must be spent on targets before spending them on criticals if multiple targets were designated.

This would make it more difficult to crit with these especially with multiple targets and would probably make it harder to near impossible to hit 12 targets if surrounded. Although Guided 2 would give you a couple rounds for it to work. There will of course be some issues when firing at a group of minions as they don't necessarily designate multiple targets but should [in theory] require 1 of the 12 missiles. I would probably say as a GM that if you fire at a single minion group, you don't increase the difficulty and advantages could still count as multiple hits and subtract the number of minions hit from the number of remaining missiles.

2 minutes ago, Varlie said:

So updating your original post, I'm not sure I would drop the increase in difficulty but I wouldn't add it per additional target, I would just increase it once per fire as these are indirect/guided missiles and continue to use Ranged(Light), only because he may use a targeter in his helmet do designate targets, he is still making a regular attack and most targeters just add a boost to Ranged(Light/Heavy) or Gunnery.

Good points. The reason I set it to Average is that I was factoring in the increased difficulty that goes with Auto-fire and tacking it onto the normal difficulty (Easy) for a ranged attack from Short range.

3 minutes ago, Varlie said:

"Whistling Birds": (Very much a WIP, not ready for prime-time yet)
(Custom) Vambrace Attachment: (Ranged [Light]; Damage 4; Critical 2; Range [Short]; Guided 2, Limited Ammo 12, Pierce 5. (R) 1,000/9.
Designate targets up to 12 (or remaining missiles if previously fired). If firing at more than one target, the initial target must always be the target with the highest difficulty and highest defense. Increase the difficulty of the attack once if designating more than 1 target. Make a Ranged(Light) attack based on the most difficult target. It takes 1 Advantage to hit an additional target and advantages must be spent on targets before spending them on criticals if multiple targets were designated.

If you don't mind, I think I'll just steal this.

4 minutes ago, Varlie said:

This would make it more difficult to crit with these especially with multiple targets and would probably make it harder to near impossible to hit 12 targets if surrounded. Although Guided 2 would give you a couple rounds for it to work. There will of course be some issues when firing at a group of minions as they don't necessarily designate multiple targets but should [in theory] require 1 of the 12 missiles. I would probably say as a GM that if you fire at a single minion group, you don't increase the difficulty and advantages could still count as multiple hits and subtract the number of minions hit from the number of remaining missiles.

Sounds about right. I would treat the minions as individuals for the purposes of target designation, but that works fine.

5 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

If you don't mind, I think I'll just steal this.

Can't steal what's freely given. That's what I love about these boards. As much as we argue, there's a lot of knowledge and experience shared

I've amended the OP.

On 11/22/2019 at 4:32 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

We were talking about the Whistling Birds in another thread, and I've statted stuff like this before, so I figured I'd start a thread for it and see what you people think.

Mandalorian Vambraces:
Armor Attachment. Each Vambrace costs 500 credits and each is capable of holding up to three of the weapons I will outline below. Whether you have one or two vambraces, they only take up 1 HP on Mandalorian armor, but on other armor they take up 1 per vambrace.

Wrist Mounted Weapon:
Weapon Attachment: See CotR page 61. (Think the blasters the Death Watch have on their wrist. That is why I included it)

Retractable Wrist Blades:
Armor (Vambrace) Attachment: See CotR page 63.

Portable Plasma Shield:
Armor (Vambrace) Attachment: See CotR page 63.

Micro-Rocket Launcher:
Armor (Vambrace) Attachment: See CotR page 62.

Whipcord Thrower:
Armor (Vambrace) Attachment: See CotR page 63.

Compact Flame Projector:
Armor (Vambrace) Attachment: (Ranged [Light]; Damage 5; Critical 2; Range [Short]; Blast 2, Burn 2, Pierce 2, Vicious 3) (R) 750/8. The stats are from official NPCs, the price is conjecture.

Repulsor Blast:
(Custom) Vambrace Attachment: (Ranged [Light]; Damage - ; Critical - ; Range [Short]; Concussive 1, Disorient 3, Knockdown, Slow-Firing 2. 650/8. (Think what Sabine had in Rebels)

Dart Shooter:
(Custom) Vambrace Attachment: (Ranged [Light]; Damage 4; Critical 3; Range [Short]; Accurate 1, Linked 1, Pierce 3, Limited Ammo 8. 400/6. (Think what Pre Visla used against Maul)

"Whistling Birds": (Pretty sure this is it. Thanks Varlie!)
(Custom) Vambrace Attachment: (Ranged [Light]; Damage 4; Critical 2; Range [Short]; Guided 2, Limited Ammo 12, Pierce 5. (R) 1,000/9.
Designate targets up to 12 (or remaining missiles if previously fired). If firing at more than one target, the initial target must always be the target with the highest difficulty and highest defense. Increase the difficulty of the attack once if designating more than 1 target. Make a Ranged (Light) attack based on the most difficult target. It takes 1 Advantage to hit an additional target and advantages must be spent on targets before spending them on criticals if multiple targets were designated.
Additional qualities: The cost to purchase additional ammo is 100 credits with a rarity equal to the weapon. It takes an action to reload the weapon.
I'm looking for advise on pricing it and pricing its ammo, as well as reloading. This is the most complicated of the weapons I've statted.

There are stats for a "Dart Shooter" on pages 41-42 of the Force and Destiny: Endless Vigil sourcebook

It is the KMS MK I Saberdart

On 2/19/2020 at 11:19 PM, NebulousAsp said:

There are stats for a "Dart Shooter" on pages 41-42 of the Force and Destiny: Endless Vigil sourcebook

It is the KMS MK I Saberdart

What are its stats? I might just port them over if they seem about right.

On 2/19/2020 at 11:19 PM, NebulousAsp said:

There are stats for a "Dart Shooter" on pages 41-42 of the Force and Destiny: Endless Vigil sourcebook

It is the KMS MK I Saberdart

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

What are its stats? I might just port them over if they seem about right.

There's also a Dart Gun "Gear" attachment on page 60 of Cyphers And Masks . It requires 0 Hard points, and can be attached to any type of gear, from a datapad, to armor, weapons, etc.; Anything .