1 minute ago, DGLaderoute said:

Or--and, putting my usual writerly disclaimer hat on, I'm NOT saying this is the case, because I genuinely don't know and am speculating as much as you guys--Daisetsu persists with his contempt for the Throne, the Court, Otosan Uchi and things generally Imperial, and simply decides he doesn't WANT the Throne, and ignores the edict. Reinforcing this decision is the very same fact regarding Shahai--that she'd be facing the repercussions of her actions the night they fled, and he doesn't want to subject her to that. And Mitsu, being a good Togashi, could easily support this because, after all, everyone must choose their own path through life and who is he to gainsay that? At the very least, this could leave Mitsu feeling really conflicted.

In other words, getting word of the edict might actually push Daisetsu and company FURTHER into the wind, rather than bringing them back to the Capital.

Once more, this is my musing only, though. I have absolutely no idea what's coming for these characters, any more than you folks do.

It is certainly a possibility, but I get the sense that Daisetsu is the kind who would realize that he can do more to dismantle the established power dynamic from the inside rather than the outside, given that as Emperor he is the center of that dynamic.

Now admittedly there would be resistance to his efforts, and odds are that he would end up being more reviled than Hantei the 16th in the history books if he does it all at once, but if he draws out his plans slowly and incrementally he can actually likely get a lot done in his lifetime, and if he take a hand in the upbringing of his own children and instills many of the same virtues in them then the reforms could continue long after his death.

But sadly that would make for a fairly boring story, so yeah, something will need to happen to stop him from either wanting or being able to claim his throne.

11 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

It is certainly a possibility, but I get the sense that Daisetsu is the kind who would realize that he can do more to dismantle the established power dynamic from the inside rather than the outside, given that as Emperor he is the center of that dynamic.

An interesting point. I guess it comes down to how willing he is to re-immerse himself in Imperial politics. I've written the character from inside his own POV and I certainly don't know; I could see him going either way, because both options make sense for the way his character has been developed. To put it another way, if I was going to write a piece about him deciding, I think I could probably work with either choice without having to do too many dramatic gymnastics to get one or the other to work. That's how it should be for the character at this point in the story, though, leaving us guessing...like we are here!

42 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

Reinforcing this decision is the very same fact regarding Shahai--that she'd be facing the repercussions of her actions the night they fled, and he doesn't want to subject her to that.

Not to mention the fact that as a legal child with a guardian, he'd be subject to the decision of the Imperial Court (i.e. Shoju and to a lesser degree the rest of the court) who he gets betrothed to, rather than who he wants, and it could be expected to happen immediately.

And there will be an immense amount of pressure for it to be either Doji Chiyoe; the 'expected' Doji bride, and the person Yoshi has spent at least a year pushing, or Lady Magami of the Mantis (depending on who the 'canonical' winner of Winter's Embrace is).

7 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Not to mention the fact that as a legal child with a guardian, he'd be subject to the decision of the Imperial Court (i.e. Shoju and to a lesser degree the rest of the court) who he gets betrothed to, rather than who he wants, and it could be expected to happen immediately.

And there will be an immense amount of pressure for it to be either Doji Chiyoe; the 'expected' Doji bride, and the person Yoshi has spent at least a year pushing, or Lady Magami of the Mantis (depending on who the 'canonical' winner of Winter's Embrace is).

I so want this to be the Mantis choice, but given that Yoshi is still pushing Chiyoe in an earlier fiction i think that at best its still in the air, at worst she's won.

So, we've agreed then, that the only sensible way forward is for Daisetsu & Shahai to flee to the Mantis Islands, get hitched then go on world tour!

18 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

Oddly enough, I see the accusation of forgery actually playing into Shoju's hands. He wants to see the Scorpion go back to the shadows where as it is Kachiko that wants to see the Scorpion take over. Kachiko has a vested interest in there being no accusation of a power play where as Shoju might have to take one for the team to get what he wants.

Possibly.

Shoju believes the Scorpion should best serve the emperor while Kachiko believes the Scorpion should best serve the empire. That's the impression I got. Shoju is being a villain here to fulfill the dead emperor's wishes and ensure the power of his new emperor's (Daisetsu's) rule. He wants the Scorpion to be the villain, but Hantei's villain.

If Shoju taking one for the team helps the Hantei dynasty (particularly Daisetu at this point) then I suspect he'll be a villain for his emperor and take that option. If Shoju being discredited in this way works counter to establishing Daisetsu's rule then I'd suggest Shoju would fight against it to his last breath. Shoju wanting the Scorpion to fall from grace is a debate on the Scorpion's method, but he wouldn't sacrifice results to correct their methods I'd think. That would be short sighted, and is probably why he hadn't taken action previously against Kachiko even though he disagreed with her.

At least that's my understanding of the character currently.

Unfortunately for Shoju I agree that Daisetsu is most likely not going to be cooperative. He seemed pretty done with the capital in his last fiction.

2 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

An interesting point. I guess it comes down to how willing he is to re-immerse himself in Imperial politics. I've written the character from inside his own POV and I certainly don't know; I could see him going either way, because both options make sense for the way his character has been developed. To put it another way, if I was going to write a piece about him deciding, I think I could probably work with either choice without having to do too many dramatic gymnastics to get one or the other to work. That's how it should be for the character at this point in the story, though, leaving us guessing...like we are here!

Seems like the perfect character crossroads for a story decision IMO. I could definitely see the story moving forward either way. Though I'm a bit more curious to see Daisetsu's experiences away from the capital.

Kachiko believes the Scorpion and the Emperor and the Empire and everything else should serve her. Until Shoju put a blade to her throat, she figured “serve her” and “serve Shoju” probably worked out to the same thing.

Well I've had this debate before about Kachiko. I believe while she wants Scorpion and herself in the driver's seat, she still believes she's doing what's best for the empire. Some people have a less charitable opinion of Kachiko and believe her motivations are entirely selfish.

1 hour ago, phillos said:

Well I've had this debate before about Kachiko. I believe while she wants Scorpion and herself in the driver's seat, she still believes she's doing what's best for the empire. Some people have a less charitable opinion of Kachiko and believe her motivations are entirely selfish.

Quite frankly, I think this is the more interesting interpretation, too. A Kachiko who knowingly puts herself first is a flat character. A Kachiko who has genuinely convinced herself that "what I want" and "what the Empire needs" are the same thing is much more complex, with a wider variety of stories that can grow out of it.

As I mentioned about her attitude to Shoju, it has heretofore been possible for Kachiko to assume that the interests of the Empire and of the Scorpion all perfectly align. And she could also assume that the interests of the Empire were also the same as the interests of the Emperor, and the same for her and Shoju relative to the Scorpion. But these assumptions have not borne out under recent events. Not just Kachiko, but Jodan and Satsume and Sumiko and Toturi and Shoju were all wondering about a seemingly inevitable conflict between the Emperor and the good of his Empire in the coming reign of H39 aka Sotorii. Kachiko goes a big step beyond all the others, however, in trying to blackmail the Emperor-presumptive into being her pawn.

Whatever Kachiko tells herself, Shoju finally has her number.

I can’t remember which story it was in, but remember her inner monologue about the string game.

19 minutes ago, Manchu said:

I can’t remember which story it was in, but remember her inner monologue about the string game.

The last stone played.

8 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

An interesting point. I guess it comes down to how willing he is to re-immerse himself in Imperial politics. I've written the character from inside his own POV and I certainly don't know; I could see him going either way, because both options make sense for the way his character has been developed. To put it another way, if I was going to write a piece about him deciding, I think I could probably work with either choice without having to do too many dramatic gymnastics to get one or the other to work. That's how it should be for the character at this point in the story, though, leaving us guessing...like we are here!

Ah samurai drama! Always in conflict with one's self, between one's desires and obligations. it is like the RPG: give the PC a choice between personal desire and obligation and punish them for whatever they choose.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

Kachiko goes a big step beyond all the others, however, in trying to blackmail the Emperor-presumptive into being her pawn.

But -- and this is important -- that action was also about preserving the public reputation of the Hantei Dynasty. Patricide is Bad News; the murder of an emperor is Bad News; both at once is Double-Plus Ungood Everybody Loses Faith in the Throne time. Even if Kachiko had known about the edict, covering up what Sotorii did would have been a wise idea.

31 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

But -- and this is important -- that action was also about preserving the public reputation of the Hantei Dynasty. Patricide is Bad News; the murder of an emperor is Bad News; both at once is Double-Plus Ungood Everybody Loses Faith in the Throne time. Even if Kachiko had known about the edict, covering up what Sotorii did would have been a wise idea.

Covering for Sotorii, on paper the right call. Trying to assassinate Toturi is where she made her major misstep that pushed her from good of the Empire is good for the Scorpion to what's good for the Scorpion is good for the Empire.

5 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Covering for Sotorii, on paper the right call. Trying to assassinate Toturi is where she made her major misstep that pushed her from good of the Empire is good for the Scorpion to what's good for the Scorpion is good for the Empire.

That's definitely the point she moves from any credible argument of 'protecting the throne' into acting in her own interests. Though I don't think she actually sees any distinction between the two; that's the fundamental problem.

6 hours ago, Kinzen said:

But -- and this is important -- that action was also about preserving the public reputation of the Hantei Dynasty. Patricide is Bad News; the murder of an emperor is Bad News; both at once is Double-Plus Ungood Everybody Loses Faith in the Throne time. Even if Kachiko had known about the edict, covering up what Sotorii did would have been a wise idea.

Agreed. Covering up the murder - or at least controlling it until she (as imperial advisor), the Imperial family daimyos and similar wise heads agreed what to do, fine. And if her first response had instead been to send Aramoro out with the instruction " Imperial Chancellor, Jewelled Champions, Seppun and Otomo Daimyo. Here. NOW ." I don't think anyone would have any problem with her actions.

8 hours ago, Kinzen said:

But -- and this is important -- that action was also about preserving the public reputation of the Hantei Dynasty. Patricide is Bad News; the murder of an emperor is Bad News; both at once is Double-Plus Ungood Everybody Loses Faith in the Throne time. Even if Kachiko had known about the edict, covering up what Sotorii did would have been a wise idea.

But that could have been done without trying to hide the edict. Kachiko's actions further the Scorpion's power as well as her own (like the emerald champion being a member of the clan). But I think hiding the edict might be an exception, where she chooses a more risky option because it benefits her more.

Under normal circumstances, the edict is a major boon to the Scorpion. They replace an heir who's had a Crane as his closest teacher, for one that will have their current champion as his most important mentor for quite a few years, and has their future champion as his closest friend. Not to mention Shoju will be pretty much running the empire for some time.

However, with the murder of Jodan at Sotorii's hands, the control Kachiko would personally have over him would be much greater, and I believe that is a significant part of why she acted the way she did.

@Kinzen I started composing a reply but my colleagues above have already well answered your objection. Disregarding Jodan’s will and attempting to assassinate the Emerald Champion show clearly that, whatever she tells herself, Kachiko is primarily playing the game for her own profit and pleasure.

I think you guys are applying too hard a boundary on Kachiko. I think she's absolutely doing what's best for herself and, by extension, the Scorpion Clan, and doing it knowingly and willingly. But I'm also convinced that she genuinely believes this is also what's best for the Empire. The other clans are mired in so many issues--some bordering on catastrophic--and so rife with internal divisions that they're barely capable of governing themselves, much less Rokugan. Only the Scorpion, she tells herself, have the cohesion, and strength of will, and ruthless devotion to properly guide Rokugan through these tumultuous times.

That fact that what's best for her and the Scorpion is also what's best for the Empire is just a happy coincidence. That's why she was so taken aback by the edict, and by Shoju's actions after the Emperor's death. She'd weighed Shoju in the balance of her own world-view, and thought she therefore knew him. It turns out she didn't. It turns out Shoju simply doesn't have the vision she thought he did, and now she has to recalibrate her understanding of the world.

Oh, and I'm not saying Kachiko's right--or wrong. All I'm saying is that this is what she, as a character, believes.

The sad thing is she might be proven correct long term. We have more knowledge than the characters in the story. We know Shoju's plan seems destine to fail (considering Daisetsu is not cooperating), and by blackmailing Sotorii she could potentially control him where if he was left unchecked he'd be ruinous for the empire. Kachiko's plan might have avoided the imminent clan war and preserved Hantei rule in the empire. Though of course it would have made Sotorii a puppet emperor for the Scorpion clan, but at some point another Hantei would assume the throne and things probably would have worked out more or less. It certainly seems like Jodan was more influenced by his Scorpion advisors than any of the other clan representatives in the capital. So it probably wouldn't have been all that different.

@DGLaderoute , seems we all can agree that Kachiko is justifying her actions as good for the Empire and the Scorpion.

I am saying that this is self-delusion and she could eventually become completely disillusioned and be fine with a totally amoral pursuit of personal power. (So even more cynical than kolat.)

That is who she ultimately is, according to Shoju. And the metaphor of the string game, I think, supports it. Power is something she enjoys for its own sake.

Also, Kachiko cannot genuinely justify some great destiny for Scorpion by appealing to the troubles of other Great Clans; she is the engineer in no small part of many of their troubles. This is just another indication that she does not really understand and value the Celestial Order. Deep down, this is an unrestrained competition for power for her; no boundaries or scruples or humanity. Shoju is absolutely right about her. Everything that makes the Scorpion dangerous with nothing of what makes the Scorpion morally justified.

I'm not saying her trying to kill Toturi was a good move, no. Merely saying that "blackmail the new Emperor" and "cover up what the new Emperor did for the sake of the Empire" were identical actions, and depending on which way you describe it, her decision to do that looks either like a power-hungry maneuver or a genuinely beneficial course of action. It can be, and is, both.

And I don't think she's right all the time about what she wants also being what's best for the Empire. This isn't me pitching Kachiko as the unsung hero of Rokugan. I just think she's right occasionally (the cover-up of the murder being a key instance), and that while she may be deluding herself, the delusion is there, and genuine. She isn't intentionally screwing over her clan or the Empire for her own profit.

(Which is why, incidentally, I disagree with Shoju about the threat to put her in the Traitor's Grove. In his shoes, I would reserve that for people who knowingly and with malice aforethought betray the Scorpion.)

In trying to find a historical counterpart for Kachiko the closest I think I've found is Sulla, the Roman general who marched on Rome and made himself dictator in an effort to save the Republic but whose actions ended up irreparably destabilizing it.

5 hours ago, Manchu said:

(So even more cynical than kolat.)

The heck are you talking about? The Kolat aren't cynical. We're enlightened philosophers seeking to free humanity from the tyranny of the heavens. And once the current order inevitably falls due to kharma we seek to have an undeniable, perfect (and therefore eternal) order ready to replace it.

If that's not optimistic thinking I don't know what is.

7 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

I think you guys are applying too hard a boundary on Kachiko. I think she's absolutely doing what's best for herself and, by extension, the Scorpion Clan, and doing it knowingly and willingly. But I'm also convinced that she genuinely believes this is also what's best for the Empire. The other clans are mired in so many issues--some bordering on catastrophic--and so rife with internal divisions that they're barely capable of governing themselves, much less Rokugan. Only the Scorpion, she tells herself, have the cohesion, and strength of will, and ruthless devotion to properly guide Rokugan through these tumultuous times.

Kachiko and the Scorpion (one and the same) have a whole "Smartest Man in the Room" thing going on that really annoys me after a short while. That is why I was hoping Toturi was going to punk Amoro, to finally break that streak but nope. She is convinced that whatever she does must be the best idea for her, the clan and the Empire because everyone else is a child and/or an idiot - and really, why shouldn't she? All evidence seems to point to her being right.

1 hour ago, DarkHorse said:

Kachiko and the Scorpion (one and the same) have a whole "Smartest Man in the Room" thing going on that really annoys me after a short while. That is why I was hoping Toturi was going to punk Amoro, to finally break that streak but nope. She is convinced that whatever she does must be the best idea for her, the clan and the Empire because everyone else is a child and/or an idiot - and really, why shouldn't she? All evidence seems to point to her being right.

Really? "All evidence seems to be point to her being right"? I'm curious why you think that.

1 hour ago, DGLaderoute said:

Really? "All evidence seems to be point to her being right"? I'm curious why you think that.

Pretty much everyone else in the Empire is portrayed as a fool, an idiot or no better than an ignorant child. Only the Scorpion (the whole clan to a man) get to be smart, clever, have a scheme that works or know what is going on.
The Dragon are jumping at shadows and will have a wacky misundertanding (that leads to all out war) because Yokuni cannot tell them straight up what to do or they don't know how to play the game. The Crane are masters of politics but they have Yoshi the fool on the back foot all the time and soft hearted Hotaru compromised (by a Scorpion), the Lion are masters of war and will stake all on their honour but they keep losing battles to the Unicorn and are now fine with a dog act coup, the Unicorn are gaijin barbarians that just can't seem to get ahead in this here Rokugan if only they could stop making goofy social mistakes for just one second (Ide, master diplomats I am looking at you), the Crab...well they are doing nothing because it would take screen time to tell their story but will inevitably get goofed by Kuni Yori's peekaboo "bad guys are good guys" mind game trick, the Phoenix keep chasing their own tails and losing important NPCs in the middle of the night because reasons. And the Scorpion, well they have two masterminds each steepleing their fingers, muttering "all according to my plan..." and the only thing to stop them is each other.

I really like the idea of the Shoju vs Kachiko proxy shadow war for the fate of the clan and the Empire. It would just be nice if there was another adult allowed at that table rather than them be the two puppet masters pulling all the strings.

While I hate the Kolat as an idea, I at least like the Master Chrysanthemum reveal (if it is indeed canon) because there is at least then *someone* who knows something that Kachiko and Shoju don't...before Seppun Ishikawa gets punked because of course he has to be an idiot who is terrible at his job and ninja are the best at everything.